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Old
01-19-2013, 10:50 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
What you were told was...


1. Wang has bought out a larger contract then DiPietro's, when he bought out Yashin. He's also bought out Bates and Witt. So, Wang is willing to buyout contracts.

2. Sources close to the isles, Staples and Botta, both say Wang has no interest in buying out DiPietro.

I wonder if this is this because of their personel friendship or are the isles hoping he'll retire and insurance will pay DiPietro for them?

3. DiPietro's buyout would be $1.5m per. Very affordable if Wang goes that route.

4.Just because Leaf fans feel burned losing out on Seguin/Hamiliton, doesn't mean some draft lottery team will be trading away a potential studto Toronto.
So 24 million to a cash strapped team in 2014' for a first rounder is the worst trade proposal ever? I think people forget hockey is a business.

And Toronto lost out on Seguin/Hamilton for a superstar player who was 21.

And again, Wang buying-out Yashin years ago proves what?

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01-19-2013, 10:50 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Of excuse me, Doug Maclean. He screwed Columbus so bad with his idiotic moves.
I'd still respect the opinion of Doug McLean over some Leafs homers on HF boards when it comes to analyzing that defense.

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01-19-2013, 10:52 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by gooilgo View Post
I'd still respect the opinion of Doug McLean over some Leafs homers on HF boards when it comes to analyzing that defense.
I don't know how anyone can call it 15th in the East. That's ridiculous. Not even close.

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01-19-2013, 10:55 AM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitsfan67 View Post
Lol I haven't put one on here in 3 months because of the people on this site there is a RARE and it's very rare where people like YOU say that's not a bad trade ... By then people like YOU don't back up why it's bad and it's not like you put a proposal on here for people to criticize... so mind your own bussiness.
It is perhaps worth noting that a lot of folks on here who appear to do nothing but criticize don't do their own proposals because they're quite aware that trades are not as simple as they seem, and there's lots of circumstances and nuances that go into making them successful, and it's difficult to get that information from the outside. So proposals do get made, but they're few and far between.

And even with that in mind, sometimes embarrassing mistakes are made regardless. like that one time I had a proposal to take Dan Girardi for cap space...

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Originally Posted by gooilgo View Post
The hype that surrounds Leafs D does not match reality. Doug McLean called it the worst in the east. I'd be very nervous trading for a d man from the leafs.
While I don't exactly think of the Leafs blueline as being particularly badass, citing Doug MacLean does not help your argument at all.

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Old
01-19-2013, 10:59 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
I don't know how anyone can call it 15th in the East. That's ridiculous. Not even close.
Objectively. The only team worse than them was Tampa Bay. That's not to say 100% of the blame lies on the individual players. Realistically, last year, the Leafs D in terms of talent level was probably better than or comparable to the Lighting, Islanders, Jets, Hurricanes, Caps, Sabres, Panthers and Habs.

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01-19-2013, 10:59 AM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitsfan67 View Post
Lol I haven't put one on here in 3 months because of the people on this site there is a RARE and it's very rare where people like YOU say that's not a bad trade ... By then people like YOU don't back up why it's bad and it's not like you put a proposal on here for people to criticize... so mind your own bussiness.
Can't take the heat? Don't play with fire.

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01-19-2013, 11:02 AM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
I don't know how anyone can call it 15th in the East. That's ridiculous. Not even close.
Er. It's actually pretty shockingly close. Phaneuf may not be the superstar folks thought but is still significantly better than his detractors insist, and Gunnarsson is solid, but beyond that there's no substantive depth (unless Liles rebounds, and even then that's kind of dubious). The only other real competitor I see for worst in the East would be the Islanders, and I imagine they'd be ranked ahead because their kids have more experience and there's more of 'em.

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Old
01-19-2013, 11:05 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Lets be realistic. With out a completely lucky start. The Leafs not making the playoffs.
Now let's leave reality behind.

HEre's a quick rebuild for y'all:

Phaneuf ---> EDM 2013 1st
{Gunner + 4th -----> PIT 2013 1st}
{Komi + retained salary-----> PIT 2nd (deadline)}
Brown + MacArthur + Kulemin + Gardiner -----> Skinner + CAR 2013 1st
Grabo + retained salary ----> CLB (LAK) 2013 1st

DRaft 2013:
LAK 1st(28th) + CAR 1st(24th) + PIT 2nd(60th) ---------> 10th overall
PIT 1st (30th) + EDM 1st(18th) + TOR 3rd (61st)------------> 8th Overall

8th overall + 10th overall -----------> 3rd overall(CLB)

3rd overall + TOR 2nd(31st) ------------>1st/2nd overall.


There.



Skinner, Jones AND MacKinnon.

Rebuilt and ready to go.

BEautiful!


Lets be realistic . All the team laugh hard then block all calls from TML

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Old
01-19-2013, 11:06 AM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Objectively. The only team worse than them was Tampa Bay. That's not to say 100% of the blame lies on the individual players. Realistically, last year, the Leafs D in terms of talent level was probably better than or comparable to the Lighting, Islanders, Jets, Hurricanes, Caps, Sabres, Panthers and Habs.
Lightning? Yep. Probably. But they've worked on that.
Islanders? See above.
Jets? Don't be absurd. The Jets have an extremely skilled blueline.
Hurricanes? Nobody who reaches the same ceiling as Phaneuf, but far, far more guys to fill out the rest of the roster.
Sabres? That's failure to gel and execute, not lack of talent.
Panthers? You might be able to make a case for them this year in terms of available talent. They seem to gel very well, though. Would love to see if that continues.
Habs? Disagree. Markov's persistent injuries doesn't help, but they've still got more NHL depth. Not much more, but it's there.

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Old
01-19-2013, 11:06 AM
  #110
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Lets be reality

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Old
01-19-2013, 11:11 AM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stjonnypopo View Post
In which world is Phaneuf worth a potential top-3 pick?

I'll answer the question: in no world.
Totally agree, this draft has some great defensemen and some great candidates for the #2C spot in Edmonton, no way do we give up that pick for Phaneuf.
Personally I don't think we get a top 10 pick but this draft is deep, we will still get a really good player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
I don't know how anyone can call it 15th in the East. That's ridiculous. Not even close.
I will always respect someone's right to an opinion.

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Old
01-19-2013, 11:14 AM
  #112
seanlinden
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
Lightning? Yep. Probably. But they've worked on that.
Islanders? See above.
Jets? Don't be absurd. The Jets have an extremely skilled blueline.
Hurricanes? Nobody who reaches the same ceiling as Phaneuf, but far, far more guys to fill out the rest of the roster.
Sabres? That's failure to gel and execute, not lack of talent.
Panthers? You might be able to make a case for them this year in terms of available talent. They seem to gel very well, though. Would love to see if that continues.
Habs? Disagree. Markov's persistent injuries doesn't help, but they've still got more NHL depth. Not much more, but it's there.
Jets? So did the Leafs.
Hurricanes? The Leafs had plenty of depth last year.
Sabres? The Leafs failures came from just as much a failure to gel and execute as it did talent.
Panthers? They gelled very well last year, the Leafs didn't.
Habs? Markov couldn't reasonably be expected to play a lot of games anyways.

Remember... the Leafs had Schenn last year. With him and all others playing as they're capable of, that's a much better blueline. The only guys who didn't underachieve last year, were Gunarsson and Gardiner, and that's not going to be enough.
Phaneuf...Gunnarsson...Liles...Gardiner...Komisare k...Schenn...Franson.

This year, it's an obvious weakness. Liles & Gardiner are coming off concussions. Komisarek has further distanced himself from solid play. Schenn is gone.

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Old
01-19-2013, 11:18 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
Er. It's actually pretty shockingly close. Phaneuf may not be the superstar folks thought but is still significantly better than his detractors insist, and Gunnarsson is solid, but beyond that there's no substantive depth (unless Liles rebounds, and even then that's kind of dubious). The only other real competitor I see for worst in the East would be the Islanders, and I imagine they'd be ranked ahead because their kids have more experience and there's more of 'em.
The Flyers and Lightning defense does not look good at all. Same with Carolina. and Pittsburgh has terrible depth on D.
And what about Jake Gardiner and Cody Franson?

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01-19-2013, 11:19 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Objectively. The only team worse than them was Tampa Bay. That's not to say 100% of the blame lies on the individual players. Realistically, last year, the Leafs D in terms of talent level was probably better than or comparable to the Lighting, Islanders, Jets, Hurricanes, Caps, Sabres, Panthers and Habs.
What have those teams done to improve?

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01-19-2013, 11:34 AM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
The Flyers and Lightning defense does not look good at all.
The Flyers could be screwed with another injury. They're still ahead. Barely.

The Lightning aren't great, but they're at least deeper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Same with Carolina.
Um. No. Corvo is pretty much the only weak spot on that blueline.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
and Pittsburgh has terrible depth on D.
Pittsburgh's D is more shallow than usual, true, but they've still got four solid NHLers on there. (Sort of. Niskanen manages to be solid over there, and I still have no idea how that's possible but he does it.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
And what about Jake Gardiner...
Even ignoring the concussion, he's not exactly ready to carry the second pairing. Or any pairing. He'll probably be there someday soon, though - maybe even next year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
... and Cody Franson?
Don't make me laugh. Franson is one of those guys who flourishes if you put him in just the right scenario; otherwise he just falls apart. He'd be one of those AHL lifer types, except he's actually very useful on an NHL power play. He's not someone you cite as a significant blueline asset.

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01-19-2013, 11:41 AM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Remember... the Leafs had Schenn last year. With him and all others playing as they're capable of, that's a much better blueline. The only guys who didn't underachieve last year, were Gunarsson and Gardiner, and that's not going to be enough.
Phaneuf...Gunnarsson...Liles...Gardiner...Komisare k...Schenn...Franson.
While that's arguably true, it's also true for the bulk of the teams cited. And you're not about to convince me that, say, there was more talent on the Leafs blueline than the Jets "assuming all goes well". That's why folks measure these things by depth, not by raw talent. Phaneuf is legitimately good - like I said earlier, he's not the All-Star folks assumed he would be but is still much better than his detractors insist - but he's only one guy.

Heck, "assuming all goes well" the Jackets had a killer blueline last year. What we ended up with (thanks to injuries, underperformance, injuries, anticipations based on peak years, and more injuries) was one very good quality top pairing (Tyutin-Nikitin) backed by what ended up amounting to a bunch of AHLers, nobodies, and unready kids with a shaky young goaltender behind them. Hey, wait a sec, doesn't that sound familiar?

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Old
01-19-2013, 11:46 AM
  #117
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At the end of this season the Leafs have:

Lupul
Bozak
MacA
Steckel
Orr
Kostka
all becoming UFA's.

Next year they have:

Kessel
Kulemin
DionP
Komi
Scrivens
all becoming UFA's.

Lombardi and Connolly are gone.

The Leafs are going youth rebuild.

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01-19-2013, 11:54 AM
  #118
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Much of those deals are bad but the Leafs got shafted on the Gunner for Pitts 1st.

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01-19-2013, 12:02 PM
  #119
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detroit needs defense and seldom has high 1st round picks but even so i still wouldnt give it up for phaenuf

edmontons first? yikes

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01-19-2013, 12:14 PM
  #120
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If we rebuild,

This year trade MacArthur, Lupul and Grabovski. All should fetch a first

Lupul-should fetch a first from almost any *playoff team
Grabovski- Blackhawks
MacArthur- Kings (at least they offered a 1st for him last year). If not loktionov + pick
Then buy out komisarek
Next year if kessel doesnt want to resign, trade him. For kessel, Im going to want a young C a la duchene.

With all the capsapce though, I would go all out in FA.

And then depending on the quality of the team that year, I would or wouldnt trade off phaneuf at the deadline


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01-19-2013, 12:18 PM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
So 24 million to a cash strapped team in 2014' for a first rounder is the worst trade proposal ever? I think people forget hockey is a business.

And Toronto lost out on Seguin/Hamilton for a superstar player who was 21.

And again, Wang buying-out Yashin years ago proves what?
Since the 2009 sublease amendment, Wang's claiming losses of $4m-$8m a yr, intead of up to $20m a yr. He and Ratner are working to get the isles out of Nassau Coliseum and into Barcaly's early.

Wang buying-out Yashin, Bates and Witt proves that Wang is willing to buyout players. $1.5m per is very doable for Wang.

You proposed your ' the leafs use their deep pockets, to buy picks' proposal, a few day ago. Since then we've seen the Leafs swing Lombardi deal. A deal where the Leafs are paying a large chunk of Lombardi's remaining $1.9m salary and are getting a whopping 4th rounder out of it.

Those are the type of salary influenced trades, I expect we'll see.

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01-19-2013, 12:22 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
What have those teams done to improve?
Out on defense, from the #4-#7 spots: Staios, Mottou, Jurcina and Eaton.

In on defense, from the #4-#7 spots : Martinek, Carkner, Hickey, Strait and possibly Visnovsky (we'll see in 2 weeks).

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01-19-2013, 12:28 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
At the end of this season the Leafs have:

Lupul
Bozak
MacA
Steckel
Orr
Kostka
all becoming UFA's.

Next year they have:

Kessel
Kulemin
DionP
Komi
Scrivens
all becoming UFA's.

Lombardi and Connolly are gone.

The Leafs are going youth rebuild.
All of our best players are under 30, why do we need to go with a youth rebuild?

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Old
01-19-2013, 12:38 PM
  #124
etherialone
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All of our best players are under 30, why do we need to go with a youth rebuild?
Allot of your best players will likely be leaving via free agency at the end of this and next season.

The rest of them that are under 30 would be the definition of a youth movement wouldn't it?

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01-19-2013, 12:52 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by TOGuy14 View Post
All of our best players are under 30, why do we need to go with a youth rebuild?
The real question is: Are the current top players worth building around? No

Kessel - complementary first liner.
Phaneuf - should be a #3 playing 21-22min/night.
Lupul - Excellent #2
JVR - Solid #2
Grabovski - Solid #2 or perfect #3 on a team with elite (or similar) #1 and #2 centers
Kadri - #2
Gardiner - Offensively a #2, defensively (at the moment) a #4.

The rest aren't worth mentioning. Once Kessel, Phaneuf and Lupul approach free agency trade them for younger pieces instead of draft picks. The difference now is Nonis isn't starting from scratch. Solid scouting is in place, patient GM and the development system is excellent.

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