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P.K. Subban Thread - Mk III - Unsigned Edition

View Poll Results: Who should break first
Bergevin 61 25.00%
Subban 183 75.00%
Voters: 244. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-19-2013, 11:32 AM
  #801
Whitesnake
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Originally Posted by BlackStar View Post
It boggles my mind that people do not understand what Bergevin is trying to do here. From the team's standpoint, not the fanboy standpoint, he's doing the wise thing. CLEARLY, I wish this mess was all over so we could see PK in action tonight.

But think about it here, who's looking out for the team's best interest? Clearly and understandably, PK isn't, Pk is looking out for the best interest of PK, and he has the right to do so, it's not wrong.

But in the same way, Bergevin is looking out for the best interest of the team, that's what he is being paid for. When he bought out Gomez, he wasn't putting Gomez's interests over the team's. Why in the world do we want him to hurt the team now for Pk's sake? Clearly, if he hasn't signed PK yet, it's because he believes that the contract would hurt the team. Since we don't know all the details, isn't it wise to understand where is he coming from?

For PK, like I said, I understand where he is coming from too. HOWEVER, I can understand how a long term contract could hurt the team, but I cannot understand how a short term contract would hurt PK. It clearly didn't hurt Price and Pax, why can't he understand that, that would be fair? That is why I'm disappointed in PK.
Sorry, but while I also fault PK for how stubborn he "seems" to be (we don't know anything for sure...), doing what's BEST for the team is icing the best team possible. We all know that Subban is and will be the #1 d-man for years to come. Markov is one injury to go for good. There are no other d-men in our prospect pool RIGHT NOW that comes close to what Subban is. He is an exception and should be treated that way. And for whoever stupid players will look at him badly 'cause he seems to be paid too much, well they should just look at the kind of the team they have with or without him and accept it.

Not sure why the fans HAVE to accept the fact that PK might be too demanding for Bergevin's taste or that we HAVE to accept that PK might not be well liked by his teamates...but how about the players accepting that they need the player that is PK in their lineup. Whether he's fun to be with or not. He's great at playing hockey.

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01-19-2013, 11:36 AM
  #802
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Gorges is like the stereotypical old time hockey "character" player. Western Canadian country boy with all heart and little brains, plays beyond his abilities and his willing to take one for the team. Has no real personality beyond that.

It's great having guys like that around but chasing away everyone who dares have their own personality until there's only simple country boys left is a great way to stay mediocre.
I couldn't have said it any better.

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01-19-2013, 11:37 AM
  #803
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Originally Posted by HABsurde View Post
On Cyberpresse this morning in an article from Richard Labbée here is what Josh Gorges mention about the PK situation:

Le défenseur Josh Gorges ne sait pas trop de quelle manière Subban sera reçu lorsqu'il aura enfin son nouveau contrat en poche.



«Je ne suis pas sûr, a-t-il dit. On verra. C'est dur à comprendre... Le but du hockey, c'est de gagner en équipe. Si on a du succès, c'est à cause de l'équipe.



«Je ne voudrais pas être dans cette position. C'est certain qu'un joueur essaie toujours d'avoir la meilleure entente possible. Un gars dans sa situation n'a pas beaucoup de droits quant à la négociation, alors il doit dire oui à un contrat de transition, en attendant de mériter le droit de négocier à la hausse par la suite. Je pense que 95 % des joueurs sont déjà passés par là.»


Fast translation Josh doesn't know how PK will be receive when he comes back, it's hard to understand, the goal of hockey is to win as a team, if we have success it's because of the team, i would'nt to be in PK's position, player try to have the best possible deal but a guy in is situation does not have much choice, he should say yes to a transition contract and wait to negociate for a higher pay day later on, 95% of the player went that way....

I love PK but it seems it is not the case for everyone in the locker room, which i don't think was the case with Doughty, Bergevin doesn't seem to have a choice, he needs to stay is ground in risk of losing credibility with the rest of the team....

i think PK support in the locker room is getting thinner everyday, a lot of veteran seems to resent him. I'm not sure this story is going to end well....
If that's what Gorges said (and I'm skeptical he would say this) he should shut his yap. Players negotiate contracts and that's part of the business. Teammates should understand this and Gorges just got a pretty good deal himself.

I'm not buying that he would be stupid enough to say something like this.

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Old
01-19-2013, 11:37 AM
  #804
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Not sure why the fans HAVE to accept the fact that PK might be too demanding for Bergevin's taste or that we HAVE to accept that PK might not be well liked by his teamates...but how about the players accepting that they need the player that is PK in their lineup. Whether he's fun to be with or not. He's great at playing hockey.
Some players think PK has to mature and that may be so. But what about the players who can't stand being his teammate ? Get over it you're a professional hockey player. If the guy is as good as PK you make it work and shut up.

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01-19-2013, 11:38 AM
  #805
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Originally Posted by JackZap View Post
PK played like **** for half the season last year. Dont get me wrong I love PK but hes going to triple his salary the next two years. Just shut your mouth and play already.
What's funny about your statement is that PK has probably been the most silent so far on this process Anything to hate on this kid smh

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01-19-2013, 11:44 AM
  #806
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Thanks for the plug.

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Old
01-19-2013, 11:45 AM
  #807
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Your point makes no sense based on what we're seeing now. So the non-signing happens because they can't live with the guy? And what if he signs? They will then be able to live with him? If true that he's such a pain in the ass, trade him. But trade him in a way that you will get the greatest return for him. Yet, while he might not be the easiest guy to live with it, I have way more problems with the leadership of this team if it's indeed true. I know a couple of vets in this league that would shut PK up and knock him out if needed so he'd quiet down. In here, they just dislike the way he conducts himself, well show him how it has to be done.
Bergevin said he wants to see PK by himself before signing him long term. He probably heard "things", maybe some players even talked to him. But at the same time, he knows he's got a gem of a player in PK and you don't throw away this king of player.

So logically, he wants to sign him to a short deal, to see what a coach like Therrien can do with him. If it doesn't get better, he'll be easier to trade with a short deal than a 6 years contract.

From a management point of view, a bridge contract is the only logical option.

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01-19-2013, 11:46 AM
  #808
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Originally Posted by JackZap View Post
PK played like **** for half the season last year. Dont get me wrong I love PK but hes going to triple his salary the next two years. Just shut your mouth and play already.
It's a testament to his talent that he played like **** half the year (exaggeration on your part) and ended up 17th for ice time amongst dmen in the league, top 30 for pts and a positive in the plus/minus despite the fact he played on a **** team.

How many times he is going to multiply what he's making now has no relevance with anything.

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01-19-2013, 11:46 AM
  #809
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Nice to see that McD is the Rangers best defenseman now.
I'd say it's still Girardi, but it's hard to split off the effectiveness of pairings unless they've spent a good amount of time separately (like in the case of Subban making Gill a top-pairing guy the year before). Keep in mind that the Rangers D usage is pretty whacked (Tortorella barely played that third pairing) and that McD doesn't play the PP at all (not that Girardi does, mind you).

Closest comparable to McD on the Habs is probably Gorges actually, except Girardi likely isn't as good as Subban so give the edge to the Ranger.

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01-19-2013, 11:46 AM
  #810
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Originally Posted by BlackStar View Post
It boggles my mind that people do not understand what Bergevin is trying to do here. From the team's standpoint, not the fanboy standpoint, he's doing the wise thing. CLEARLY, I wish this mess was all over so we could see PK in action tonight.

But think about it here, who's looking out for the team's best interest? Clearly and understandably, PK isn't, Pk is looking out for the best interest of PK, and he has the right to do so, it's not wrong.

But in the same way, Bergevin is looking out for the best interest of the team, that's what he is being paid for. When he bought out Gomez, he wasn't putting Gomez's interests over the team's. Why in the world do we want him to hurt the team now for Pk's sake? Clearly, if he hasn't signed PK yet, it's because he believes that the contract would hurt the team. Since we don't know all the details, isn't it wise to understand where is he coming from?

For PK, like I said, I understand where he is coming from too. HOWEVER, I can understand how a long term contract could hurt the team, but I cannot understand how a short term contract would hurt PK. It clearly didn't hurt Price and Pax, why can't he understand that, that would be fair? That is why I'm disappointed in PK.
Great post - I mentioned something similar earlier. It's a team game afterall. It's disappointing it has come to this.

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01-19-2013, 11:47 AM
  #811
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Thanks for the plug.
I've disagreed with you in the past mainly on Gomez and Martin, but you hit it on the nail here with that article. Good job.

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01-19-2013, 11:51 AM
  #812
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Let's see how Markov and the rest of the D corp plays... if they are remotely average, deal PK and find a replacement who is actually a team player.

I'm not only basing this on his contract negociations, but also on the way he plays in general and relations with other players (I mean he even had problems with Plekanec... PLEKANEC for christ sake !)

I like PK as an athlete... not the player and less and less the person... but if the team can't play without him, well sign him and pray...

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01-19-2013, 11:54 AM
  #813
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
I'd say it's still Girardi. Keep in mind that the Rangers D usage is pretty whacked (Tortorella barely played that third pairing) and that McD doesn't play the PP at all (not that Girardi does, mind you).

Closest comparable to McD on the Habs is probably Gorges actually, except Girardi likely isn't as good as Subban so give the edge to the Ranger.
Rangers are a tough comparison because they have workhorses in Girardi and McD, Staal who I think is better than he showed last year, and an absolutely horrible bottom pairing. Our bottom end depth might be small and soft, but that's the one thing we are better than the Rangers at. As good as Gorges is the gap between him and Subban is definitely greater than Girardi and McD, who both play more conservatively than Subban.

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01-19-2013, 11:54 AM
  #814
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Thanks for the plug.
No problem, it was excellent.

I wonder what the Habs brass would say if they read it. My guess is their reaction would be one that would make me want to throw my CPU through the window.

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01-19-2013, 11:55 AM
  #815
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Originally Posted by habspinner View Post
Great post - I mentioned something similar earlier. It's a team game afterall. It's disappointing it has come to this.
Sure it's a team game but that's not an argument. Players contribute in different amounts to the team. That is why some players are paid 500K and some are paid 8M.

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01-19-2013, 11:58 AM
  #816
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Sorry, but while I also fault PK for how stubborn he "seems" to be (we don't know anything for sure...), doing what's BEST for the team is icing the best team possible. We all know that Subban is and will be the #1 d-man for years to come. Markov is one injury to go for good. There are no other d-men in our prospect pool RIGHT NOW that comes close to what Subban is. He is an exception and should be treated that way. And for whoever stupid players will look at him badly 'cause he seems to be paid too much, well they should just look at the kind of the team they have with or without him and accept it.

Not sure why the fans HAVE to accept the fact that PK might be too demanding for Bergevin's taste or that we HAVE to accept that PK might not be well liked by his teamates...but how about the players accepting that they need the player that is PK in their lineup. Whether he's fun to be with or not. He's great at playing hockey.
Ofcourse, but if signing the best possible team means getting yourself in cap trouble, overpaying a playerby a lot(we don't know what Subban is asking for money wise), helping your other players to use the Subban contract to make more money for themselves than they otherwise would have...how good of a team will you be icing two, three, four years from now?

Bergevin has been saying over and over that they want to make this team good for a very long time. PK is part of that plan I'm sure, but severely overpaying him clearly isn't(again, we don't know what PK is asking for).

Since we are all Canadiens fans first, we should try to get into Bergevin's mind first. It's nowhere near as simple as make it out to be. I've been agreeing with you for much of the discussion, but may our impatience not cloud our judgement.

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01-19-2013, 12:00 PM
  #817
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
I'd say it's still Girardi, but it's hard to split off the effectiveness of pairings unless they've spent a good amount of time separately (like in the case of Subban making Gill a top-pairing guy the year before). Keep in mind that the Rangers D usage is pretty whacked (Tortorella barely played that third pairing) and that McD doesn't play the PP at all (not that Girardi does, mind you).

Closest comparable to McD on the Habs is probably Gorges actually, except Girardi likely isn't as good as Subban so give the edge to the Ranger.
Considering it was McD's first real season of action... I'd rather have McD going forward.

Whoops...

ajfldj;lajflk lkafj;lajlk;sa alfjsljalfd..............

I think I just had another stroke.

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01-19-2013, 12:04 PM
  #818
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MathMan, you're article ticked me off more than I already am. Not because you are wrong, but because you are absolutely 100% right. I can't believe how some people do not realize that losing Subban would set the team back. He's starting to get Markov syndrome where people are under estimating his capabilities.

Bergevin needs to stop ****ing around with Subban (assuming its MB playing hardball). Despite his "attitude" issues, he is a special player already. He is by far the team's best D. I can't explain how frustrated I am by this situation.

I'm also getting tired of this "character" discourse being spewed by management.

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01-19-2013, 12:04 PM
  #819
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Originally Posted by IWalkThroughWalls View Post
Bergevin said he wants to see PK by himself before signing him long term. He probably heard "things", maybe some players even talked to him. But at the same time, he knows he's got a gem of a player in PK and you don't throw away this king of player.

So logically, he wants to sign him to a short deal, to see what a coach like Therrien can do with him. If it doesn't get better, he'll be easier to trade with a short deal than a 6 years contract.

From a management point of view, a bridge contract is the only logical option.
A player with that potential won't be tough to deal even at 5 M$ 'cause in the end, the team that would get him even in a bridge contract knows that they'll be satisfied by his play and would want to give that next contract that would probably be eventually pricier than the one he could sign now. If Subban would settle for 5.5 M$ for 6-8 years, in 2 years when he'll show that he's a very good 2-way and potential Norris candidate, that he will then be worth 6,5 M$ at worst. A team with a vision will have no problem acquiring a 5,5 M$ Subban.

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01-19-2013, 12:06 PM
  #820
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Considering it was McD's first real season of action... I'd rather have McD going forward.
Than Gorges, sure. Than Subban, definitely not.

Although there's another angle to this "first season of action" bit. McD has only done it for a year and we don't know how much of it was Girardi. Remember, we used to think Komisarek was pretty good (not saying that McD is like that, but when a pairing is always together it can be hard to tell who's driving). Curious to see how he does this year.

Subban OTOH has been a top-pairing guy for a year and a half now with two different D-men, and he's definitely always been the pairings' top guy -- neither Gorges nor Gill can carry a top pairing.

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01-19-2013, 12:10 PM
  #821
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I'd take Subban over McD. It might be the Habs homer in me, but I think Subban has greater offensive upside, and has been at it longer with a worse supporting cast. With all due respect to Gorges, Girardi is notably better. And no comment necessary compared to Gill.

Of course I'd take McD over any of our defenders not named Subban, or even any of the Rangers defenders for that matter, but McD never was a Hab and never will be one, so that's that and with a certain Alaskan gone, what happened is history.

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01-19-2013, 12:14 PM
  #822
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Of course I'd take McD over any of our defenders not named Subban, or even any of the Rangers defenders for that matter, but McD never was a Hab and never will be one, so that's that and with a certain Alaskan gone, what happened is history.
For me it's now that Gainey/Gauthier are gone I've moved on

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01-19-2013, 12:16 PM
  #823
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Hi guys, I am new to submitting on this site, tho i've been following it for years so i thought i might as well begin to weigh in on some of these topics. What better topic to start on that this one, lol. IMO, the best option for both sides would be a 1 year contract at around 3.5 million. This is only a short season. It would give PK a chance to prove himself to MB and also give MB a chance to see PK play in person and see how he interacts with his team first hand. Either way I hope this gets solved asap before permanent damage is done.

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01-19-2013, 12:16 PM
  #824
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For me it's now that Gainey/Gauthier are gone I've moved on
I'm just hoping Bergevin isn't holding out on Subban because of "character issues". That'd just be repeating Gainey/Gauthier's mistakes, except minus the experience.

It's too early to judge definitely but I've not been terribly impressed with Bergevin so far.

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01-19-2013, 12:18 PM
  #825
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It boggles my mind that people do not understand what Bergevin is trying to do here. From the team's standpoint, not the fanboy standpoint, he's doing the wise thing. CLEARLY, I wish this mess was all over so we could see PK in action tonight.

But think about it here, who's looking out for the team's best interest? Clearly and understandably, PK isn't, Pk is looking out for the best interest of PK, and he has the right to do so, it's not wrong.

But in the same way, Bergevin is looking out for the best interest of the team, that's what he is being paid for. When he bought out Gomez, he wasn't putting Gomez's interests over the team's. Why in the world do we want him to hurt the team now for Pk's sake? Clearly, if he hasn't signed PK yet, it's because he believes that the contract would hurt the team. Since we don't know all the details, isn't it wise to understand where is he coming from?
No doubt Bergevin is doing what he thinks is best for the team, but is it?

Many people are saying he should sign the bridge contract and then go for the big bucks and the long term deal. Hypothetically, let's say they are close in value per year, but are apart in term length. Even if he doesn't improve, do you think he's going to sign for the same cap hit in two years? Just with inflation 5 million is going to be less then than it is now. And if he does earn a huge long term deal (which everyone wants), it's not going to be close to 5 million a year, so how is the bridge contract helping our team then?

Worst case scenario, he's a guy who people don't like who plays tough minutes and comes out ahead.

Quote:
For PK, like I said, I understand where he is coming from too. HOWEVER, I can understand how a long term contract could hurt the team, but I cannot understand how a short term contract would hurt PK. It clearly didn't hurt Price and Pax, why can't he understand that, that would be fair? That is why I'm disappointed in PK.
Security. Evan Longoria and Ryan Braun could be making a tonne more than they are from the Rays and Brewers, but they traded the potential to make more with the guarantee of making a lot. It's the same with Subban. A long term deal gives him a guaranteed 25 or 30 million (well, half that with taxes). If he signs a short term contract and blows out his knee or gets a concussion or two, he might never get another opportunity at a long term deal. I'm not saying boohoo, poor millionaire, but if he gets hurt on a bridge contract, he stands to lose a great deal of money.

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