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Old
01-18-2013, 06:55 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Brick Top View Post
Gratuitous usage of caps aside, why can't either Gus or Tatar have a top 6 role this season? Unless you want to pencil in one of Babs' favorites like Sammy/Cleary/Bert for 2nd line duty, there should be room for one of them to play with Flip and Franzen.
Why? Because Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Brunner, Franzen, Filppula, and YES Samuelsson.

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Also, the Wings are going to need secondary scoring since they lack a true sniper on the roster (can't quite put Franzen in that category), so I think they need scoring from their 3rd line. Granted, that is tough to pull off with Helm centering that line, but I don't see why Gus couldn't play on the 2nd line and Tatar on the 3rd. Neither guy is really going to develop their games to the next level by playing against AHL competition at this point.
Secondary scoring, huh? Have you heard of Cleary, Bertuzzi, Helm, Miller, Abdelkader, and Tootoo? Don't give the "ZOMG, AHL=NO DEVELOPMENT" Oh for pete's sake, what's 48 games playing 6 minutes a night gonna do for them? Nothing.

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01-18-2013, 07:06 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
Why? Because Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Brunner, Franzen, Filppula, and YES Samuelsson.

Secondary scoring, huh? Have you heard of Cleary, Bertuzzi, Helm, Miller, Abdelkader, and Tootoo? Don't give the "ZOMG, AHL=NO DEVELOPMENT" Oh for pete's sake, what's 48 games playing 6 minutes a night gonna do for them? Nothing.
So you WANT Sammy in the top 6. Got it. I've been rooting against that since he was brought back, but once he inked the deal with the Wings, it was inevitable- no way Babcock could resist giving him a top 6 role. Never mind that in doing so, the team is creating a roadblock for 2 NHL-ready prospects with top 6 skill.

And yes, those names do sound vaguely familiar. They actually sound a lot like the names from last season that couldn't provide the necessary complimentary scoring against Nashville when our big guns were shut down. And yes, I'll save you some typing time by acknowledging that Helm was injured, but it is funny that you included him and Abby in your scoring list. Not exactly guys I want my team to rely on to create and finish scoring chances.

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01-18-2013, 07:11 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
Why? Because Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Brunner, Franzen, Filppula, and YES Samuelsson.



Secondary scoring, huh? Have you heard of Cleary, Bertuzzi, Helm, Miller, Abdelkader, and Tootoo? Don't give the "ZOMG, AHL=NO DEVELOPMENT" Oh for pete's sake, what's 48 games playing 6 minutes a night gonna do for them? Nothing.
They should be playing at least 12+ minutes a might in the NHL by now, or at least Nyquist.

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01-18-2013, 10:32 PM
  #29
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The six minutes a night thing is a bit off. If they're playing in the bottom six as regular contributors, they should be getting at least 11 minutes a night (at least that's what Eaves got as our 12th forward last season). Even the 14th TOI was over 10 minutes.

Nyquist and Tatar would be fine in the bottom6, giving us some offensive depth on those lines, while sheltering them a bit from the other team's top defensive setups.

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01-18-2013, 10:38 PM
  #30
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The six minutes a night thing is a bit off. If they're playing in the bottom six as regular contributors, they should be getting at least 11 minutes a night (at least that's what Eaves got as our 12th forward last season). Even the 14th TOI was over 10 minutes.

Nyquist and Tatar would be fine in the bottom6, giving us some offensive depth on those lines, while sheltering them a bit from the other team's top defensive setups.
That's what I've been thinking. I really don't see how putting Nyquist and Tatar in the lineup makes the team any worse. At least Nyquist, who would be a good scoring punch on any line.

Anyways if Tatar isn't in Detroit next year, you can't blame him for bolting to the KHL. And if that does happen, I want KH gone.

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01-18-2013, 10:45 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
The six minutes a night thing is a bit off. If they're playing in the bottom six as regular contributors, they should be getting at least 11 minutes a night (at least that's what Eaves got as our 12th forward last season). Even the 14th TOI was over 10 minutes.

Nyquist and Tatar would be fine in the bottom6, giving us some offensive depth on those lines, while sheltering them a bit from the other team's top defensive setups.
Six minutes a night is what Nyquist got when he wasn't paired with Datsyuk.

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01-18-2013, 11:14 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
Six minutes a night is what Nyquist got when he wasn't paired with Datsyuk.
Over the 18 games he played with us he averaged 10:35 a game. He'd get his minutes. The difference is that I'm fine with him getting those minutes on the third line while you appear to want him in the top6 or nothing.

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01-18-2013, 11:16 PM
  #33
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That's what I've been thinking. I really don't see how putting Nyquist and Tatar in the lineup makes the team any worse. At least Nyquist, who would be a good scoring punch on any line.

Anyways if Tatar isn't in Detroit next year, you can't blame him for bolting to the KHL. And if that does happen, I want KH gone.
I don't see it, either. I will give Holland credit in that I think he's assembled a good team for a 48 game season. We really don't have to worry about trying to get people up to speed or anything - we are stacked with guys who should be able to step onto the ice and figure out what they need to do in short order. It's just not set up well to prepare for next season with, as CB has put it, the bottleneck of prospects.

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01-18-2013, 11:38 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
The six minutes a night thing is a bit off. If they're playing in the bottom six as regular contributors, they should be getting at least 11 minutes a night (at least that's what Eaves got as our 12th forward last season). Even the 14th TOI was over 10 minutes.

Nyquist and Tatar would be fine in the bottom6, giving us some offensive depth on those lines, while sheltering them a bit from the other team's top defensive setups.
Eaves gets there with the PK though. I do think they will role lines a little more this year especially with the short schedule, you are going to see more balance in that department from a lot of teams, at least if they are smart. When both Helm and Gator are in those lines will play a decent amount not sure with Emmerton.

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01-18-2013, 11:41 PM
  #35
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1. Didn't Sammy used to play on the third line? Nothing wrong with putting him there.

2. Cleary/Bert can definitely play in the bottom six and do well. They're big, not too slow, have a bit of a scoring touch. And they've been placed there before.

3. Hell, even Franzen in the few games where he was demoted last year looked better in the bottom6 than the top6.

Point being, if we wanted to dump some of our bottom6 guys, we could find room for at least Nyquist on the top6, probably even Tatar.

Also, those notes on the PP. Sigh. SIGH. Stop doing that point shot crap. It only worked with Homer because the man was a god in front of the net and because Lids was a master at getting pucks through. Homer's hand-eye and his ability to take all that punishment, completely unrivaled. Lidstrom, one of the best in the business. And now you want to try that with a much lesser Cleary/Franzen/Bert + whoever in our D-corp doesn't even compare to Lidstrom? Hilarious.

How about we use our improved forward corp to work the puck? D/B/Z should be able to work some magic. I think Filp/Franzen/Whoever can do some good work too. Let's give that a try for pete's sake.

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01-19-2013, 12:02 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
Why? Because Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Brunner, Franzen, Filppula, and YES Samuelsson.



Secondary scoring, huh? Have you heard of Cleary, Bertuzzi, Helm, Miller, Abdelkader, and Tootoo? Don't give the "ZOMG, AHL=NO DEVELOPMENT" Oh for pete's sake, what's 48 games playing 6 minutes a night gonna do for them? Nothing.
Cleary, Helm, Bert, Abs and Tootoo are not anything most NHL caliber D's should worry about when it comes to secondary scoring. They score once in a while, but are not much more than warm bodies to a decent defenseman. Nyquist, Tatar and Mursak should be folded in so they can get playing time in the big league and work their way up to the top lines and not just expect to be slotted in without proving they can fit.

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01-19-2013, 12:26 PM
  #37
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Cleary, Helm, Bert, Abs and Tootoo are not anything most NHL caliber D's should worry about when it comes to secondary scoring. They score once in a while, but are not much more than warm bodies to a decent defenseman. Nyquist, Tatar and Mursak should be folded in so they can get playing time in the big league and work their way up to the top lines and not just expect to be slotted in without proving they can fit.
Bertuzzi, Helm, Cleary, and Tootoo are 30 point scorers, hardly anything to sneeze at for bottom sixers, and nothing for defensemen to take likely. Miller also scored 14 goals last year, and Eaves usually scores 13-14 goals as well. You criminally underestimate our bottom six.

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01-19-2013, 01:11 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Brick Top View Post
Gratuitous usage of caps aside, why can't either Gus or Tatar have a top 6 role this season? Unless you want to pencil in one of Babs' favorites like Sammy/Cleary/Bert for 2nd line duty, there should be room for one of them to play with Flip and Franzen.

Also, the Wings are going to need secondary scoring since they lack a true sniper on the roster (can't quite put Franzen in that category), so I think they need scoring from their 3rd line. Granted, that is tough to pull off with Helm centering that line, but I don't see why Gus couldn't play on the 2nd line and Tatar on the 3rd. Neither guy is really going to develop their games to the next level by playing against AHL competition at this point.
Wasn't Brunner brought in to try to fill that sniper role? Regardless of whether you think he pans out or not there is no arguing the kid has the best wrist shot on the team, and personally that I've seen from a Red Wing since Fedorov.

On another tangent, I used to love lurking these boards for info, rumors, and speculation about the Wings, but now all I read is doom and gloom for Detroit and Dead Wings 2.0. The season hasn't started yet, so we haven't been eliminated. Our top line consists of three of probably the 5-10 most dominant players in Europe during the lockout. We lost Lidstrom, but Kronwall and Ericsson have been groomed for the greater part of 5 years to share the responsibility. We have more depth in our bottom 6 than probably any team in the league, including a 3rd line with 3 guys who have the tools to put up 20 goals each, which in turn is going to take pressure off of our top 2 to score 2-4 goals a game. We have what could end up being a Masterson Trophy winning combo in net. We have a lot to be excited about here! Does anyone here really miss Brad Stuart? He was a great pickup for a few years, but was a pylon against Nashville. Lidstrom, while still an elite defenseman, wasn't his immortal self last year, and it showed. Hudler? Who cares. He could shoot, but we got a definite upgrade in Brunner with the speed, vision, and shot. How about Ty Conklin? We went from a shooter tutor backup to a big, athletic, skilled goaltender who was able to maintain a .900 save percent in Toronto with parking cones for dmen.

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01-19-2013, 01:12 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
Bertuzzi, Helm, Cleary, and Tootoo are 30 point scorers, hardly anything to sneeze at for bottom sixers, and nothing for defensemen to take likely. Miller also scored 14 goals last year, and Eaves usually scores 13-14 goals as well. You criminally underestimate our bottom six.
This is not a full season so point totals should be roughly half or less and most of the points from the bottom six are assists and not goals. We need more goals to offset our lack of defense. I would love Cleary and Bert to share time on the scratch list if that means giving the younger guys some ice time. As far as Miller and Eaves, I like Miller and he would be a good guy for the youg guys to play with and Eaves is a question mark, because if he gets a good lick laid on him, he could be out again, but also a good guy to play with the young guns. I think you overestimate our bottom six, especially since Tootoo hardly played as much as he did a few years ago on Nashville, whos bottom six was more suspect than ours. This is the perfect season to let the younger guys try to show what they can do and if they dont pan out, maybe Holland would surprise us and do what he failed to do for the last couple of years and pull the trigger on a big trade or a good signing.

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01-19-2013, 01:43 PM
  #40
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This is not a full season so point totals should be roughly half or less and most of the points from the bottom six are assists and not goals.
Somehow I knew you would be foolish enough to mention this. Of course they aren't going to score 30 points. It's a shorter season. Franzen isn't going to score 28 goals, Datsyuk's not going to score 70 points. Ian White's not going to rack up 26 points. EVERYONE'S SCORING IS GOING DOWN. The length of schedule is irrelevant. Have you heard of proportions? They'll score in proportion to the 48 game schedule what they normally do in an 82 game schedule. They're still a threat even in a shorter even in a shortened season.
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We need more goals to offset our lack of defense.
Which this roster provides.
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I would love Cleary and Bert to share time on the scratch list if that means giving the younger guys some ice time.
I would love it if people just shut up and support the team for once.
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As far as Miller and Eaves, I like Miller and he would be a good guy for the youg guys to play with and Eaves is a question mark, because if he gets a good lick laid on him, he could be out again, but also a good guy to play with the young guns. I think you overestimate our bottom six, especially since Tootoo hardly played as much as he did a few years ago on Nashville, whos bottom six was more suspect than ours.
What? What is this I don't even... We're not talking a few years ago. We're talking now. And the Tootoo we have now scored 30 points last season on a pretty deep Nashville squad. What happened ages ago is irrelevant.

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This is the perfect season to let the younger guys try to show what they can do and if they dont pan out, maybe Holland would surprise us and do what he failed to do for the last couple of years and pull the trigger on a big trade or a good signing.
Unlike you, GMKH is in the business of putting together the most competitive team possible withing his power to do so. He's not about to gamble the season on a hoard of rookies and young, inexperienced players. I'm glad you aren't our GM.

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01-19-2013, 02:05 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
Somehow I knew you would be foolish enough to mention this. Of course they aren't going to score 30 points. It's a shorter season. Franzen isn't going to score 28 goals, Datsyuk's not going to score 70 points. Ian White's not going to rack up 26 points. EVERYONE'S SCORING IS GOING DOWN. The length of schedule is irrelevant. Have you heard of proportions? They'll score in proportion to the 48 game schedule what they normally do in an 82 game schedule. They're still a threat even in a shorter even in a shortened season. Which this roster provides. I would love it if people just shut up and support the team for once.
What? What is this I don't even... We're not talking a few years ago. We're talking now. And the Tootoo we have now scored 30 points last season on a pretty deep Nashville squad. What happened ages ago is irrelevant.

Unlike you, GMKH is in the business of putting together the most competitive team possible withing his power to do so. He's not about to gamble the season on a hoard of rookies and young, inexperienced players. I'm glad you aren't our GM.
Way to go old school and call out someone for being "foolish," even it is a tad condescending. I think anyone who posts regularly on this board supports the team to some extent- some may be more critical and less likely to wave the flag all the time than others, but still root for the Wings.

The last part confuses me a little, which if you ask my wife may not be the world's most difficult task. In the Ken Holland thread, you mentioned that he'll be rolling in 3 rookies next season and 2 or more the following year... he'd be banking on rookie production in those seasons, right? How is that any different than what a few of us were hoping for this year in regards to Gus and Tatar being regulars in the top 9?

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01-19-2013, 02:27 PM
  #42
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Way to go old school and call out someone for being "foolish," even it is a tad condescending. I think anyone who posts regularly on this board supports the team to some extent- some may be more critical and less likely to wave the flag all the time than others, but still root for the Wings.

The last part confuses me a little, which if you ask my wife may not be the world's most difficult task. In the Ken Holland thread, you mentioned that he'll be rolling in 3 rookies next season and 2 or more the following year... he'd be banking on rookie production in those seasons, right? How is that any different than what a few of us were hoping for this year in regards to Gus and Tatar being regulars in the top 9?
That's exactly what I've been saying too.

Since he's kept them all down in the AHL, there's going to be an inevitable time when we will have to rely on rookies A LOT more than we would've, had KH been slowly introducing them to Detroit year-by-year.

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01-19-2013, 02:29 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
Somehow I knew you would be foolish enough to mention this. Of course they aren't going to score 30 points. It's a shorter season. Franzen isn't going to score 28 goals, Datsyuk's not going to score 70 points. Ian White's not going to rack up 26 points. EVERYONE'S SCORING IS GOING DOWN. The length of schedule is irrelevant. Have you heard of proportions? They'll score in proportion to the 48 game schedule what they normally do in an 82 game schedule. They're still a threat even in a shorter even in a shortened season. Which this roster provides. I would love it if people just shut up and support the team for once.
What? What is this I don't even... We're not talking a few years ago. We're talking now. And the Tootoo we have now scored 30 points last season on a pretty deep Nashville squad. What happened ages ago is irrelevant.



Unlike you, GMKH is in the business of putting together the most competitive team possible withing his power to do so. He's not about to gamble the season on a hoard of rookies and young, inexperienced players. I'm glad you aren't our GM.
You can dump the condescending tone, it makes you look immature and dismissable. This team has not really improved itself nor has it addressed any of its losses in any significant way for the last few years. They are getting beat by younger teams, the wings are not adding younger talent, the defense has lost key pieces and has not replaced them. Scoring needs to be bolstered in the season that starts tonight(no matter how much you think past performance is a way to gauge how the team will play) you cant lose defense and not markedly add goal scoring and believe everything will be the same. Right now this team is at best a push in offense from last year(Brunner is an unknown so you cant say "he scored blah blah in blah blah"...) and a big loss defensively, so as a layman, I can see changes need to be made. Since Holland wont pull the trigger on a key D-man or a proven scorer to bolster the offense, as far as we can see, it is COMMON SENSE to utilize the younger talent we have at our disposal instead of the older, less effective and more injury prone vets we have that have been on the ice in the past.


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