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Old
01-19-2013, 01:26 PM
  #176
Jurky
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Although it doesn't automatically mean that won't score but it reduces the probability quite significantly. But I agree just having a shoot out specialist is useless, but Bert isn't just a shootout specialist, he brings other useful things as well
Over the past 3 years
Bert:
5/10
2/7
4/8
-------
44% (2nd only to Pav with 48.4%)

Hank:
1/3
0/3
2/11
---------
17.6%

Fil:
1/3
0/0
1/4
---------
28.5%

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01-19-2013, 01:30 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by optimuspaul View Post
Although it doesn't automatically mean that won't score but it reduces the probability quite significantly. But I agree just having a shoot out specialist is useless, but Bert isn't just a shootout specialist, he brings other useful things as well
Over the past 3 years
Bert:
5/10
2/7
4/8
-------
44% (2nd only to Pav with 48.4%)

Hank:
1/3
0/3
2/11
---------
17.6%

Fil:
1/3
0/0
1/4
---------
28.5%
I never said it wouldn't be lower, but if you prorate Filppula's percentage to the 6 games HTT or whatever mentioned, he would have ONE less goal.

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01-19-2013, 01:46 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
We aren't screwed. Do you bother to take a look at the state of the team in the future? Do you bother to consider current circumstances (Cap compliance buyouts) and the way this team operates combined with how our contracts are structured for this team? You haven't. We'll have three rookies next year: Tatar, Nyquist, and Jarnkrok. The next year we'll probably add Ferraro and Ouellet, and maybe more with FA departures. Your precious prospects are going to get their chance at a reasonable time. Get over yourself. Unlike you, Holland has the nerve to have a vision of what he sees his team in 5 years and acts accordingly. He isn't this narrowminded GM of lesser quality than Howson who says "HERP DERP, VETERAN MUST SIGN HIM TO THREE YEARS." He knows what he's doing.


Bert's a non issue. His contract is not getting in anyone's way. Even at that, he could choose to retire next year and we cap compliance buyout his contract for free.
I'm not sure you're familiar with how this team operates when it comes to introducing rookies into the lineup... you're thinking that the Wings will be rolling 5 or more rookies into the lineup in the next 2 seasons? This is the same team that is slower than Holmstrom on a breakaway in trusting rookies and giving them ice time, so I'm not sure that's a realistic projection.

I've never thought of KH as a "herp derp" kind of guy, but if he was, it might be more of a "herp derp, must sign veterans to 2 year deals and toss in NTC's"- Sammy and Bert. And IMO it's safe to say that Bert and Sammy are in the way of both Tatar and Nyquist this year, and could be blocking guys again next year. Just sayin.

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01-19-2013, 02:04 PM
  #179
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I must say, I enjoy that everyone on this site is excited and cares about the red wings and how they do. It is fun to find a discussion based on differing styles we would all take if WE were the GM.

I see 2 points of view here:

A) Holland is doing not bad, he signs the right FA's at the right time to make the team as strong as possible
B) Holland is signing too many old FA's and is blocking our rookies from making the team.

This is the basis of the last 2 pages from this thread.

I would like to say lets be realistic here.

Our team has been getting worse under either plan A) or plan B) because honestly we haven't found another datsyuk yet and draft too low.

It is unfortunate that we did not sign Parise and Suter. I as much as all of you would LOVE it if they were here. We are an instant favorite for the stanley cup. Sadly this is not the case, and I do not think it would be worth having ONLY 1 of them for 9 million a season. (There is a point where too much money kills your team)... Ask MTL with Gomez, ask Vancouver what they will get for Luongo who is still a superstar, but they paid him too much. Heck, we might regret Franzen's contract in 2-3 years (I hope not).

I wish our rookies FORCED the coaches to waive Bert and Sammy (Because that means they are CLEARLY better). But they have not.

I do not think Holland has done horribly, but he also has made so few moves that none of us are "HAPPY" with his performance.

Lets be honest, this period of our team feels like 02-03 with the leaving of yzerman and shanahan. I was sure we were toast then. I didn't know we had two superstars in our system. We were lucky. Will it happen again? I hope so.

I hope Brunner and Nyquist make the team this year and play lights out.

Lets be honest though, as long as we have a "Stanley cup playoff" streak, hollands job is safe.

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01-19-2013, 02:29 PM
  #180
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I'm sure people have seen but Elder is off the board, not that he was on it to begin with...

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Old
01-19-2013, 03:16 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post

Putting your flaming aside, the facts remain the same, nobody is as good as Bertuzzi in regards to shootout specialists on this team. Losing shootouts could be the difference between 5th place to 9th place. Babcock and Holland get it, most everyone on the forum gets it, I get it... but you refuse to accept the facts that are starring you right in the face. Making the playoffs is priority #1. If a team can't make the playoffs then guess what... they don't have a chance to win the cup. Will DRWs win the cup? Probably not. Could they? Welcome to the new NHL where any team that makes the playoffs has a chance to win.
You have a valid point. But you seem to be missing what he or she is trying to say, or maybe hasn't said, haven't read that much into it.

First of all, they shouldn't have to depend on shootout wins to get into the playoffs. Obvious statement for the day; there aren't shootouts in the playoffs. Play harder than the other team and win in regulation. I don't see too many elite teams carrying a "shootout specialist" on their roster just in the rare to semi-rare case the game ends in a shootout.

Secondly, I think you are ignoring what Tatar or Nyquist or someone better than Bertuzzi would bring that he doesn't. The game may not end in a shootout. Maybe it does. Either way there are players that bring more to the table than Bertuzzi.

If Holland knows they need a "defensive specialist" and an "offensive specialist" why in the Hell doesn't he go get one?

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01-19-2013, 03:22 PM
  #182
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I don't think he has had a "super team" since 2002. The 08 cup team was just a parity winner. The last mediocre team standing.
Um, okay.

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01-19-2013, 03:27 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Brick Top View Post
I'm not sure you're familiar with how this team operates when it comes to introducing rookies into the lineup... you're thinking that the Wings will be rolling 5 or more rookies into the lineup in the next 2 seasons? This is the same team that is slower than Holmstrom on a breakaway in trusting rookies and giving them ice time, so I'm not sure that's a realistic projection.

I've never thought of KH as a "herp derp" kind of guy, but if he was, it might be more of a "herp derp, must sign veterans to 2 year deals and toss in NTC's"- Sammy and Bert. And IMO it's safe to say that Bert and Sammy are in the way of both Tatar and Nyquist this year, and could be blocking guys again next year. Just sayin.
Everything, when it comes to Holland apologists, is about "wait until next year"

Wait until next year when we make our big trade.
Wait until next year's unrestricted free agent class
Wait until next year when we introduce the rookies.

I'm glad to make the playoffs.
But honestly, I'd rather finish 10th with youth than 7th and out in the first round with 36 year olds.

And quite honestly, we might be 10th with Sammy and Bert anyhow

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01-19-2013, 03:30 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
I wish our rookies FORCED the coaches to waive Bert and Sammy (Because that means they are CLEARLY better). But they have not.
Nyquist has 96 points in his last 94 games in the AHL.
Tatar has been a ppg player for most of this year.
Both guys have looked the best they ever have this year, and if they were drafted by any other team would be NHL regulars by this point.

I don't know what your idea of "forcing" coaches to play them would be, they are very talented young guys who are also very hungry, and are playing very good hockey right now.

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01-19-2013, 03:34 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
I wish our rookies FORCED the coaches to waive Bert and Sammy (Because that means they are CLEARLY better). But they have not.
what more can Nyquist really do down in the AHL to do that though?

he's 5th in AHL scoring this year(with Eberle in the 1 spot to boot)

you expecting him to break records or something?

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01-19-2013, 03:35 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Everything, when it comes to Holland apologists, is about "wait until next year"

Wait until next year when we make our big trade.
Wait until next year's unrestricted free agent class
Wait until next year when we introduce the rookies.

I'm glad to make the playoffs.
But honestly, I'd rather finish 10th with youth than 7th and out in the first round with 36 year olds.

And quite honestly, we might be 10th with Sammy and Bert anyhow
Right on Captiain Bob.

Everyone said last year when Nyquist was top 10 in AHL scoring, oh I dont know why you are making such a big deal, Nyquist will certainly be on the team next year.

Well here we are a year later. Nyquist is still tearing up the AHL, and still off of the Red Wings roster

Everyone said with the cap space, see I told you so, wait until free agency. Free agency hits, we get no impact players, and don't add a legit top 6 forward or legit top 4 defensemen.

It's so obnoxious how some people just blindly defend based on the past accomplishments of this organization and cannot admit at all when they falter, or explore possible alternatives for the best way to construct the roster for the present and future.

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01-19-2013, 03:45 PM
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Everything, when it comes to Holland apologists, is about "wait until next year"

Wait until next year when we make our big trade.
Wait until next year's unrestricted free agent class
Wait until next year when we introduce the rookies.

I'm glad to make the playoffs.
But honestly, I'd rather finish 10th with youth than 7th and out in the first round with 36 year olds.

And quite honestly, we might be 10th with Sammy and Bert anyhow
I am also hoping to see them make the playoffs, as being critical of some of the decision-making does not mean I am rooting for them to go winless this season. I think Detroit will finish anywhere from 6th to 10th in the West given the roster they have, and I'd expect the same result if they were playing their young guys too. Either way, I don't see them having the quality depth to challenge for the Cup, so I'd rather see the young guys get a year better at the NHL level and making the team stronger looking towards the future.

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01-19-2013, 04:33 PM
  #188
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I'd argue the exact opposite. Holland's "apologists" are more geared to looking at the past as predicting the future. As in, "he's overseen the best organization in the NHL in his time as GM and trust the process and moves he's made going forward."

On the other hand, the "critics" of Holland are more future oriented. As in, "sure, he's been great in the past, but just wait until the future when we won't make the playoffs and contend anymore based off the current way he's doing things."

This isn't the first time the prevailing opinion has been they'd finish 7th to 10th and the Wings future demise has been predicted by others for well over a decade now based off the age of the roster and other variables.

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01-19-2013, 04:41 PM
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
Nyquist has 96 points in his last 94 games in the AHL.
Tatar has been a ppg player for most of this year.
Both guys have looked the best they ever have this year, and if they were drafted by any other team would be NHL regulars by this point.

I don't know what your idea of "forcing" coaches to play them would be, they are very talented young guys who are also very hungry, and are playing very good hockey right now.
Well, he said forced to waive Bert and Sammy. Unfortunately, the Wings often just make the easy move and send their talent back down to GR, instead of parting way with vets that under produce despite having better and younger options. They'd need something dramatic to "force" them to waive Sammy or Bert.

But, I agree with you. I'm not sure why the Wings Staff isn't salivating over the numbers that Nyquist and Tatar have put up, giving them every opportunity to play. Particularly, the Samuelsson signing is mind blowing... they'd rather see him play than Nyquist?

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01-19-2013, 05:17 PM
  #190
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I'd argue the exact opposite. Holland's "apologists" are more geared to looking at the past as predicting the future. As in, "he's overseen the best organization in the NHL in his time as GM and trust the process and moves he's made going forward."

On the other hand, the "critics" of Holland are more future oriented. As in, "sure, he's been great in the past, but just wait until the future when we won't make the playoffs and contend anymore based off the current way he's doing things."

This isn't the first time the prevailing opinion has been they'd finish 7th to 10th and the Wings future demise has been predicted by others for well over a decade now based off the age of the roster and other variables.
Roy -- I'm interested in today and tomorrow.

Working in youngsters as they're ready.

This is the salary cap era. We don't sign Robitaille and Hull or trade for Chelios and Hasek anymore.

If you want to sit your hot shot rookie for an all-star -- great.

But for Sammy? For Bertuzzi? That's plain stupid, in my opinion.

An important part of managing a roster in the cap era is having CHEAP youngsters learning on the job. Not 5 at a time... but 2-3 every year.
We've not done a good job of that since Abdelkader came up.

Having youngsters allows you to spend a bit more money on a UFA or take some extra salary in a trade.

Another important aspect of youth is enthusiasm --- refreshing the roster.

Now, Holland, in a nearly pathological way, instead goes the other way, keeping new guys in the AHL to bring back old guys like Quincey, Sammy, Bertuzzi etc

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01-19-2013, 05:17 PM
  #191
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I would love to see Nyquist and Tatar play.

I was just wondering if they know something that we do not. I imagine alot of these choices are made during training camp.

Either way I see none of nyquist, tatar or mursak in the lineup. Does that mean mursak is going to be waived? or are they all safe in the AHL?

I really hope we trade some of these extra forwards for 3rd or 4th round picks and allow the young kids to play.

My only other point was that Bert and Sam are not useless, they are still perfectly servicable NHL players, our team just has too many if you include the kids, like to see them dump an asset here.

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01-19-2013, 05:29 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
I would love to see Nyquist and Tatar play.

I was just wondering if they know something that we do not. I imagine alot of these choices are made during training camp.

Either way I see none of nyquist, tatar or mursak in the lineup. Does that mean mursak is going to be waived? or are they all safe in the AHL?

I really hope we trade some of these extra forwards for 3rd or 4th round picks and allow the young kids to play.

My only other point was that Bert and Sam are not useless, they are still perfectly servicable NHL players, our team just has too many if you include the kids, like to see them dump an asset here.
uh Mursak is not only in the lineup but is playing tonight last I heard

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01-19-2013, 05:37 PM
  #193
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oh i must have the wrong lineup then

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01-19-2013, 05:41 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Roy -- I'm interested in today and tomorrow.

Working in youngsters as they're ready.

This is the salary cap era. We don't sign Robitaille and Hull or trade for Chelios and Hasek anymore.

If you want to sit your hot shot rookie for an all-star -- great.

But for Sammy? For Bertuzzi? That's plain stupid, in my opinion.

An important part of managing a roster in the cap era is having CHEAP youngsters learning on the job. Not 5 at a time... but 2-3 every year.
We've not done a good job of that since Abdelkader came up.

Having youngsters allows you to spend a bit more money on a UFA or take some extra salary in a trade.

Another important aspect of youth is enthusiasm --- refreshing the roster.

Now, Holland, in a nearly pathological way, instead goes the other way, keeping new guys in the AHL to bring back old guys like Quincey, Sammy, Bertuzzi etc
I agree with most of what you say Bob but I also think Gus and Tatar could benefit from playing 20 minutes a night and playing with confidence in the AHL vs playing much less in the NHL. I also think that Holland has stockpiled a bunch of serviceable players. He has a balancing act in trying to maintain control of as many assets as possible. I suspect Gus and Tatar will get a really good chance to make the roster this year.
On your point about a bit more money to spend doesn't really work. The team has plenty of money to spend but nothing to spend it on. Personally I think the league and the cap are to blame and I don't see the Wings or any other teams ever being dominant again. The disease of parity is real and it has gone viral.

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01-19-2013, 06:09 PM
  #195
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First let me say that I'd like to see the youth come up, especially Gus & Tata. But if they stay with GRG, it's not the end of the world. Tats was decent last year and much improved and stronger this year. Same with Gus. Both on the smaller side, getting stronger physically & on the puck will greatly help their careers when they come up. Gus got a dinged shoulder (I believe) earlier this season so maybe he isn't quite 100% ..yet. I think playing more minutes & learning the nuances is necessary for most younger players. They won't necessarily get minutes in all situations if they came up. If they come up next year stronger and better players, I don't see it as complete herp derp by mgmt. The GRG are looking like a playoff team and what great experience it would be going through a playoff and maybe winning some PO games, gaining confidence in their play. Plus they are building chemistry with others who will be future teammates, like Sheahan, Ferraro, even Mrazek. I am disappointed that (1) they didn't get a chance for a preseason tryout (2) they didn't get to show what they have on the ice vs the current players and (3) I won't get to see much of them this year unless they are called up for injury fill-ins or (if we're fortunate) the PO.

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01-19-2013, 06:18 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
I agree with most of what you say Bob but I also think Gus and Tatar could benefit from playing 20 minutes a night and playing with confidence in the AHL vs playing much less in the NHL. I also think that Holland has stockpiled a bunch of serviceable players. He has a balancing act in trying to maintain control of as many assets as possible. I suspect Gus and Tatar will get a really good chance to make the roster this year.
On your point about a bit more money to spend doesn't really work. The team has plenty of money to spend but nothing to spend it on. Personally I think the league and the cap are to blame and I don't see the Wings or any other teams ever being dominant again. The disease of parity is real and it has gone viral.
Tatar is in his 4th year in GR. At some point, AHL minutes cease to be beneficial to a player.
At some point, a player needs the new challenge of a faster league.

Tatar showed us his ability to skate with the big boys in the Worlds. Nyquist has shown flashes too.

If we were saving $4M on With Tatar and Gus instead of Nyquist and Sammy, maybe we have the ability to do things we currently can't do.

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01-19-2013, 06:34 PM
  #197
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01-19-2013, 06:45 PM
  #198
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A supposedly smarter team in St. Louis signed Wade Redden

Fire Holland.

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01-19-2013, 06:47 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Tatar is in his 4th year in GR. At some point, AHL minutes cease to be beneficial to a player.
At some point, a player needs the new challenge of a faster league.

Tatar showed us his ability to skate with the big boys in the Worlds. Nyquist has shown flashes too.

If we were saving $4M on With Tatar and Gus instead of Nyquist and Sammy, maybe we have the ability to do things we currently can't do.
I guess my question is what could we do with that extra cash? I don't see a bunch of free agents available that we just don't have the money to buy.

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01-19-2013, 09:29 PM
  #200
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People will continue to defend him because the team was successful in the past. If you criticize Holland, especially on this board people will jump in and tell you that you should be thankful the team was successful and not care as the franchise slides back into mediocrity.

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