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Acq/ Rost. Bldg./ Cap Part XVI

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01-18-2013, 03:22 PM
  #626
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there are 60 goalies in the league, it unreasonable to expect a backup to be in the top 30. hes one of the better backups in the league and thats all we need him to be
It's a ratio. Why would it matter if you're a starter (Luongo at #12) or a backup (Schneider at #2) or part of a tandem (Elliot at #1 and Halak at #6)?

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01-18-2013, 03:26 PM
  #627
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Because the general school of thought is a guy who rarely plays (works in any sport), might be rusty and not performing at his best without the reps the fulltime starter gets? A backup is just that in 90% of the cases....he's there to provide relief or be a stopgap.

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01-18-2013, 03:46 PM
  #628
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It's a ratio. Why would it matter if you're a starter (Luongo at #12) or a backup (Schneider at #2) or part of a tandem (Elliot at #1 and Halak at #6)?
most goalies thrive on playing regular or all the time. most goalies struggle when only playing now and again. its pretty much standard.

in the case of neuvirth. he's been his team's starting goalie in every season of his career until last season. id think it possible that he has less success in that role.

you can add sophmore slump to that if you want. carlson had an awful case of that last season.

i want to see what he has this season before i throw him under the bus

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01-18-2013, 04:19 PM
  #629
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I counted 5 back to back games this season. We can expect noovy in those

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01-18-2013, 04:24 PM
  #630
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Neuvirth isn't even the backup. Holtby isn't the starter.

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01-18-2013, 04:50 PM
  #631
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Neuvirth started to play very well at the end of last season before getting hurt. I was one of his biggest haters last year, but am willing to admit that.

It will be interesting to see how he can perform with a larger workload.

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01-18-2013, 04:58 PM
  #632
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It's a ratio. Why would it matter if you're a starter (Luongo at #12) or a backup (Schneider at #2) or part of a tandem (Elliot at #1 and Halak at #6)?
that would be a good point if neuvirth was as good as elliot or schneider, but he's not and you shouldnt expect him to be. of course neuvirths numbers were much worse than vokouns hes a much better goalie than him same goes for holtby (i hope). i dont expect neuvirth to be a solid nhl starter just a good backup, and the one year we needed neuvirth to step up and take the starting role from an injured varlamov he did and he led us to the south east champs (**** yea). he's still a kid so he should improve but i dont think he's done anything to warrant an ahl demotion.

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01-18-2013, 05:48 PM
  #633
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Of course there was higher expectations on him. Why wouldn't there be with that contract? However this still leaves the fact that Holmgren overpaid to get Bryz on the team. That was his fault, not Bryz. If we are going to make assumptions based on higher cap hits equaling higher performances then we just need to look on names like Gomez, Komisarek and Connolly to know large contracts doesn't necessarily equal better production.

Don't get me wrong, Bryz was far from impressive last season. However judging him based on one below expectations season, including the injury of Pronger and the bad play of their bottom pairing before Grossman was acquired, would be a mistake. Many players have had a bad year compared to what has been expected of them. Let this season pass, and then we will see if you are right. Maybe he underperforms and Philly buys him out. Maybe he plays well and they don't.
I'm not judging him based on one season. I was judging his performance that season, and he crapped the bed. Maybe he wasn't Neuvirth bad but they got a 1.5 - 2 million dollar performance out of a 5.6 for life goaltender. He did as bad for them as Huet did for Chicago his first year there. Also, he had 2 very underwhelming playoff series for Phoenix prior to being signed by them.

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Which really just comes to show the mentality of that playoff series. Neither team did come out to play any defense, but instead went all in on offense. In those situations you always end up with lots of goals against, regardless of who is in the net.

Had the situation been different and one team had simply outscored the other game after game, your argument would IMO have been valid. This series was not one of those cases. Both teams focused entirely on offense, hanging their goalies out to dry.
You're trying to fit a series into an absolute. There wasn't one. Both defenses were underwhelming. Both goalies sucked. They allowed easy shots that should have been stopped with any defense. Bryzgalov's lateral movement was about as good as mine. Were both Niemi and Leighton good goalies in the finals just because Hawks and Flyers went all offense then? No, they sucked or at least were avearge at the physical act of goaltending. Much like Bryzgalov and Fleury.

If Bryzgalov plays for last year's capitals and lets in the same types of shots he let in for the flyers, we lose each game by 5 goals even with our defense. This is about him letting in stoppable shots, over and over.

I judge players based on what I see. I look at Bryzgalov and I see guy with lateral movement issues and significant concentration issues. If you throw out all the stats and all the off ice Mr. Universe stuff and just look at him playing in goal this is blindingly evident.


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Neal was not on the Penguins roster that won the Stanley Cup.
Yet Pens have had no problem signing him to that contract and were gonna give a bigger one to Staal coming into next season. If you want their cup season, Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Gonchar, Fleury all made over 5. And that's back when the cap was way lower.

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The cup winning Hawks got into cap hell following their Stanley Cup title and had to part with names like Versteeg, Byfuglien, Ladd and Campbell. I rather not see that happen to the Caps.
You'd rather not see us win the cup and have to sell roleplayers?

Hawks whole cap problem could have been solved if they were able to move Campbell that season, and they'd have remained a powerhouse with lots of highly paid players. The fact that I have never seen anyone as tone deaf at crafting a roster as Bowman doesn't help.

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The Canucks roster did indeed reach the final, but failed miserably in the deciding game, coming to show that stars alone does not win games, but players who find their game at the right time does.
They failed miserably because they were completely broken down by then. They were not a team built to a playoff formula but they still got that far simply because of the number of very good players they had. The players who found their games for the bruins were Thomas, Chara, Bergeron and Marchand. 3 guys who were already expensive and one guy who is quite expensive now.

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Just a few examples.
All of which completely miss the point, but sure.

Ok, how about you name all the teams that have been successful without having multiple great players signed to high contracts since the lockout? I'll start.

1. Phoenix. That's it.


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Laich is a very popular player in DC. That's more than enough to justify his cap hit compared to other contracts around the NHL. That does not mean that both Benn and O'Reilly could become as popular if not more so if acquired.
I'm sorry, I thought we were in the business of winning cups not being America's friendliest tire changing club. My mistake. Carry on then.

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Dallas is not rebuilding anymore. They need NHL players, not prospects. If we were to acquire Benn, one of Carlson, Alzner or Holtby would have to go back. I would not be willing to part with any of these three pieces to get Benn.
At the time the proposal was made the impression was that they might look to trade Benn and the value proposed gave them both solid NHL help and extremely well regarded prospects.

I'd do Holtby for Benn in the blink of an eye. He's good but he's not better than Varlamov. If we go back to a Boudreauish style everyone will see it. Hunter did more to put his goalie in a position to succeed last year than any coach not named Dave Tippett. Boudreau's idea of putting his goalie in a position to succeed was telling the defense to run free without a care in the world and calling his goalie a stupid ****

Carlson too. Green and Orlov could fill in there. Alzner I'm not particularly sure. Benn is gonna be on Kopitar and Toews's level in a couple years if not this year.

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O'Reilly could be had, but would not work out for us. He would just get traded from one team where he has to play third line minutes, because of Duchene and Statsny being above him on the depth chart to DC where he would be behind Backy and Ribs.
I doubt GMGM would like either O'Reilly or Ribs playing third line minutes. That's just a waste of team resources, especially when both players does best at center opposed to the wing.
I don't think you understand the issue. The fact of the matter is that he is, in fact, working extremely well in Colorado. He anchored the 2nd best two way line in the league (after Steen-Backes-Oshie) for them that ate the toughest minutes and shredded whoever they were matched up against. He can also play RW proficiently. A Chimera-O'Reilly-Ward line could play 20 absolutely flawless shutdown minutes per game with high end 3rd line production. Then next year he'd slide into being our Patrice Bergeron/Travis Zajac/Jordan Staal caliber 2C. Once Johansson goes through his annual failure of playing well with Ovechkin and Backstrom we could shift Ovechkin back to LW and slide O'Reilly in at the right. He'd be the best RW that duo has ever had by a longshot.

The reason they're not signing him is because Sherman has an extremely conservative 2nd contract approach that got him Duchene and Johnson for 50% less than most other GMs would have given them. Same deal with Niewendyk. They may see caving to one RFA's contract demands as something that would blow up the whole system and as a result not worth it when there's value that could be had for those players.

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I do however have a proposition for you to solve our Schultz problem. How about you and me hire a chopper. We kidnap Jeff and drops him in the middle of the forest, where he will be forced to wrestle with hungry bears.

If he vanishes, we don't have to worry about his cap hit. If he returns, well in that case we will actually have a D-man who actually knows how to use his size to his advantage, destroying any opposition that defies us. Are you in?
I'd rather try to entice Edmonton into trading for him. They seem to be on a mission to collect them all.

Schultz and a 3rd for Fistric, a man could dream.


Last edited by Halpysback: 01-18-2013 at 05:59 PM.
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01-18-2013, 06:17 PM
  #634
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I love Nuevy, always have. Even dating back to the days where people on Capitals Insider were calling for him to 'prove his Virth.' However right now he's a B goalie with a couple of B+ stretches. Holtby is a B+ goalie with potential A grade stretches.

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01-19-2013, 01:35 PM
  #635
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
Yet Pens have had no problem signing him to that contract and were gonna give a bigger one to Staal coming into next season. If you want their cup season, Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Gonchar, Fleury all made over 5. And that's back when the cap was way lower.
Which can be compared to Ovi, Backy, Ribs and Green all being paid more than five million. Also taking into account Ovi's cap hit of 9.5+.


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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
You'd rather not see us win the cup and have to sell roleplayers?

Hawks whole cap problem could have been solved if they were able to move Campbell that season, and they'd have remained a powerhouse with lots of highly paid players. The fact that I have never seen anyone as tone deaf at crafting a roster as Bowman doesn't help.
Not if it means that we end up missing out on any playoff action for many years to follow. I prefer us remaining consistent. I also prefer to wait and see what this club can do with Kuznetsov and Forsberg added to the lineup. Though I do admit that I would entertain offers for Kuznetsov, due to there still being some uncertainty as to if he really will come over and play.


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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
Ok, how about you name all the teams that have been successful without having multiple great players signed to high contracts since the lockout? I'll start.

1. Phoenix. That's it.






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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
I'm sorry, I thought we were in the business of winning cups not being America's friendliest tire changing club. My mistake. Carry on then.
Business first, sport second. Having players contribute in the field of community work and public relations is as important (if not more so) than the players production on the ice. All successful franchises in the NHL have been so because they have had stable economies and loyal fanbases.

Good economies results in better prospect scouting, better training facilities and more long term success. I rather see us compete year after year than possibly winning the cup once over a greater time span.


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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
I don't think you understand the issue. The fact of the matter is that he is, in fact, working extremely well in Colorado. He anchored the 2nd best two way line in the league (after Steen-Backes-Oshie) for them that ate the toughest minutes and shredded whoever they were matched up against. He can also play RW proficiently. A Chimera-O'Reilly-Ward line could play 20 absolutely flawless shutdown minutes per game with high end 3rd line production. Then next year he'd slide into being our Patrice Bergeron/Travis Zajac/Jordan Staal caliber 2C. Once Johansson goes through his annual failure of playing well with Ovechkin and Backstrom we could shift Ovechkin back to LW and slide O'Reilly in at the right. He'd be the best RW that duo has ever had by a longshot.
I never said he would not work out, nor that he did not do so in Colorado. What I said was that putting him at any other position than center would be a waste of player resources, when he clearly excels the most at that position. It would simply be a conflict of interest as neither Ribs nor ROR would appreciate playing third line minutes.

Even though either could be moved to the wing, they would not produce at the same level as they would playing at their natural position.

I would be more interested in exploring what a package of say Hamrlik, Galiev and a 1:st/2:nd round pick in this years draft could fetch us to at least add a slight upgrade to our defense.


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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
I'd rather try to entice Edmonton into trading for him. They seem to be on a mission to collect them all.

Schultz and a 3rd for Fistric, a man could dream.
I guess that could work to.................But I still like my chopper idea even better

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01-19-2013, 02:04 PM
  #636
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I'm just not totally convinced that the door has been completely shut on Alex Semin ever wearing a Capitals jersey again. In light of GMGM willing to bring Fehr back, and a lot of ifs come into play, but if Semin's experience with Carolina doesn't work out and at that same time he's seeing how the Capitals play under Adam Oates, along with Ribeiro's play and resigning for next season, well anythings possible, including Semin wanting to rejoin the Caps and play along side Ribeiro.
I'm a little late on this, but I totally see this happening. Not because I want it to happen, and not because I think it would be good for the team, but because A) I can totally see Semin feeling out of place in Raleigh and not having huge success with the Canes and B) It's well documented that GMGM loves bringing guys back, and if Sasha will lower his price a big to, say, $4m, George will be tempted.

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01-19-2013, 02:12 PM
  #637
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i sort of see it different. semin has success and hates being there because its not washington where his friends are and he wont make friends in raleigh. he plays well enough to earn mcphee's note and then asks to come home, prodigal son.

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01-19-2013, 02:12 PM
  #638
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I'm a little late on this, but I totally see this happening. Not because I want it to happen, and not because I think it would be good for the team, but because A) I can totally see Semin feeling out of place in Raleigh and not having huge success with the Canes and B) It's well documented that GMGM loves bringing guys back, and if Sasha will lower his price a big to, say, $4m, George will be tempted.
You mean "seduced by his skill".

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01-19-2013, 02:26 PM
  #639
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i sort of see it different. semin has success and hates being there because its not washington where his friends are and he wont make friends in raleigh. he plays well enough to earn mcphee's note and then asks to come home, prodigal son.
Leonsis already doing his part by supporting Ovie playing for Russia in the Olympics next year. Ted's sending an indirect message to Kuznetsov about what the Capitals organization is about and I'm sure Semin has probably taken note of it as well.

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01-19-2013, 03:24 PM
  #640
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Not if it means that we end up missing out on any playoff action for many years to follow. I prefer us remaining consistent. I also prefer to wait and see what this club can do with Kuznetsov and Forsberg added to the lineup. Though I do admit that I would entertain offers for Kuznetsov, due to there still being some uncertainty as to if he really will come over and play.
Hi Mike--

You lost me (and I'd wager most Caps fans) with this comment. I have *no idea* how long you've considered yourself a Caps fan, but news flash for you-- we have been the type of franchise you just described from 1982 til 1998-- and I'd trade all of that for just ONE Cup. Years and years of just "being there" is crap. If you don't want that Cup, what's the point of actually competing???

And your arguments using Chicago as the poster child of "what not to do" is silly. They are as competitive as anyone in West, and are STILL in it, year in, year out, irrespective of their post Cup salary purge.

Cup or Bust. At least for this 35 years and counting Caps fan.

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01-19-2013, 03:35 PM
  #641
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bust can be pretty painful. not having won a cup makes the idea of cup and then bust sound liveable. its really not so hot. ask florida marlins fans.

ideally you put yourself in position to win enough and you get one. a caps team that was a juggernaut would end up like the redskins that lost to the raiders. a juggernaut is no guarantee. going for broke sounds good when you dont win and havent gone for broke, but going for brokes usually means breaking and not winning. then you are just broke.

i race cars. there are some guys that are what we call, "checkers or wrecker". they go for broke with a shot at winning and the crash. the crash sets them back and they arent around for a while. you win by running in the top 5 every week and taking advantage when you chance comes up. the caps have had their chance come up a couple or three times and failed miserably. oddly enough their closest shot at winning was with a team that was the team just in game but not a favorite to do anything. the team you dont want to have anymore.

stanley cup playoffs are as much or more about how things fall together as they are having the best team...or by far the best team

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01-19-2013, 03:58 PM
  #642
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bust can be pretty painful. not having won a cup makes the idea of cup and then bust sound liveable. its really not so hot. ask florida marlins fans.

ideally you put yourself in position to win enough and you get one. a caps team that was a juggernaut would end up like the redskins that lost to the raiders. a juggernaut is no guarantee. going for broke sounds good when you dont win and havent gone for broke, but going for brokes usually means breaking and not winning. then you are just broke.

i race cars. there are some guys that are what we call, "checkers or wrecker". they go for broke with a shot at winning and the crash. the crash sets them back and they arent around for a while. you win by running in the top 5 every week and taking advantage when you chance comes up. the caps have had their chance come up a couple or three times and failed miserably. oddly enough their closest shot at winning was with a team that was the team just in game but not a favorite to do anything. the team you dont want to have anymore.

stanley cup playoffs are as much or more about how things fall together as they are having the best team...or by far the best team
Marlins won two series in what, five years? You wouldn't take that as a fan? Even with the lean years in between? Ask the Texas Rangers fan, or the Boston Red Sox fan (pre 2004), or SF Giants fan (again, pre 2009), or Chicago Cubs fans, etc etc etc.

Carolina won a Cup. You live in Cane country. Ask them if they would trade that one Cup for a dozen years In the playoffs during that period. I will be shocked if more than 1 in 10 would trade that Cup away.

I think you're just arguing w me because your hurt I called you myopic (as it obviously bothered you since you interjected it into a post within an hour of my commenting it). Sorry if that upset you, I felt it was the word that best fit your comments.

So you'd rather 10 straight playoff years, no Cup. Vs. 4 years in 10 in the playoffs, with 1 cup?

Not me.

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01-19-2013, 04:14 PM
  #643
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thats myopic
Sorry if I upset you by calling you myopic. I was referring to your thought process on that earlier point, not in any sort of global way.

Anyway...

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01-19-2013, 04:17 PM
  #644
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Semin is not coming back. He may want to, but he won't wear a Caps sweater again.

On a side note, it reminds me of something a very knowledgeable fan once observed: No other fan-base in hockey wants to bring back former players more than Caps fans. He didn't advance a theory as to why, but it was noticeable compared to other fan bases.

Take it or leave it as you will.

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01-19-2013, 04:47 PM
  #645
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Semin is not coming back. He may want to, but he won't wear a Caps sweater again.

On a side note, it reminds me of something a very knowledgeable fan once observed: No other fan-base in hockey wants to bring back former players more than Caps fans. He didn't advance a theory as to why, but it was noticeable compared to other fan bases.

Take it or leave it as you will.
I think that depends on the GM. If its still George, I wouldn't be shocked to see Sasha come back....even as soon as next year. I guess we will see.

The Canes are another team that seems to have a lot of "repeat performers" too?

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01-19-2013, 04:53 PM
  #646
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Marlins won two series in what, five years? You wouldn't take that as a fan? Even with the lean years in between? Ask the Texas Rangers fan, or the Boston Red Sox fan (pre 2004), or SF Giants fan (again, pre 2009), or Chicago Cubs fans, etc etc etc.

Carolina won a Cup. You live in Cane country. Ask them if they would trade that one Cup for a dozen years In the playoffs during that period. I will be shocked if more than 1 in 10 would trade that Cup away.

I think you're just arguing w me because your hurt I called you myopic (as it obviously bothered you since you interjected it into a post within an hour of my commenting it). Sorry if that upset you, I felt it was the word that best fit your comments.

So you'd rather 10 straight playoff years, no Cup. Vs. 4 years in 10 in the playoffs, with 1 cup?

Not me.
well...of course you cant ask a canes fan that question. they have a cup. but facts are when they are missing the playoffs, the cup they won is no concellation. its old news.

you come at this with the idea that cup or bust means cup. it usually means bust and with the caps it almost certainly means bust.

was it you that called me myopic? lol....careful not to give yourself too much credit. you assume i know what myopic means.

so....for the record, if the caps went for broke and had the montreal series happen again and then spent the firesale season and 4 or 5 more seasons trying to get back to qualifying for the playoffs....thats ok with you?

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01-19-2013, 04:55 PM
  #647
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Sorry if I upset you by calling you myopic. I was referring to your thought process on that earlier point, not in any sort of global way.

Anyway...
you missed that the following post suggested what i suggested and you called myopic.

its ok. really. i didnt notice.

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01-19-2013, 04:57 PM
  #648
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well...of course you cant ask a canes fan that question. they have a cup. but facts are when they are missing the playoffs, the cup they won is no concellation. its old news.

you come at this with the idea that cup or bust means cup. it usually means bust and with the caps it almost certainly means bust.

was it you that called me myopic? lol....careful not to give yourself too much credit. you assume i know what myopic means.

so....for the record, if the caps went for broke and had the montreal series happen again and then spent the firesale season and 4 or 5 more seasons trying to get back to qualifying for the playoffs....thats ok with you?
Hey, it would save us time/money worrying about playoff series, and would give us more legitimate things to complain about during the season (righteous indignation ftw!)... maybe there's something to it after all.

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01-19-2013, 05:09 PM
  #649
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yea. there is upside. if they go broke or bust, why schedule time to watch til they rebuild?

reminds me of when my wife and i went to vegas. i was ahead by not massively so. my wife said, go all in....now. hurry up and lose so we do can something else...something fun.

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01-19-2013, 05:18 PM
  #650
Devil Dancer
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Reading Ted talk about the next TV contract, "bust" is clearly not an option in the Caps' business plan.

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