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The case for a 1-year surgical tank for the Habs

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Old
01-19-2013, 08:36 AM
  #951
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I hope we tank hard this year, it would do wonders for our future. They should try to unload Gionta, Plakanec and Markov for draft picks.

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01-19-2013, 11:49 AM
  #952
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Originally Posted by LeMAD View Post
The chances we draft a guy as good as Plekanec with a 15th pick are way too small for my liking.
He doesn't have to be as good. He'll be younger and we'll have him for a long time. Five years from now that player WILL be better than Pleks will be and five years from now is when it's going to really matter.

And getting a player of Plek's abillities isn't that much of a stretch man. Esp with our scouting group and the fact that this is actually considered a very deep draft.

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01-19-2013, 01:32 PM
  #953
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I remember one time we traded Rivet for Gorges and a 1st (Patches).

Pretty good. I remember hundreds of other times we kept guys and fought for 8th. Look where we are now lol.

This is season is unique for rebuilding teams. We have the advantage. 48 game season means less terrible hockey for fans to endure. But there are 2 other main advantages to being a seller.

There will be less sellers because everyone theoretically will be very close and we now have the ability to eat salary so now contending teams can fit a guy like Gionta onto their roster.

Unless we come out of the gates looking like a brand new team, we're probably going to be ****. It is so stupid to not at least look at what we could get for some of our veterans. But to me, this list does not include Plekanec.

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01-19-2013, 04:47 PM
  #954
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
He doesn't have to be as good. He'll be younger and we'll have him for a long time. Five years from now that player WILL be better than Pleks will be and five years from now is when it's going to really matter.

And getting a player of Plek's abillities isn't that much of a stretch man. Esp with our scouting group and the fact that this is actually considered a very deep draft.
Things are far from automatic. Louis Leblanc was drafted at #18 and just about no one thinks he will be better than Plekanec one day. And while there is a chance a first rounder could turn out better, it could also turn out worse. Andrei Kostitsym made the NHL and was drafted at #10. Mike Komisarek at #8. Chris Higgins, Kyle Chipchura and Alexander Perezhogin were first rounders and made the NHL, but none of these players are as good as Plekanec.

On balance, looking at all the odds, I would not trade Pleks straight up for a first-rounder unless it is a top 6 or so. There is a greater chance we get less than get more.

Gionta, Cole, Markov, Bourque, Kaberle - yes, it could be a good thing to trade them. But Plekanec is down the list.

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01-19-2013, 04:59 PM
  #955
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
He doesn't have to be as good. He'll be younger and we'll have him for a long time. Five years from now that player WILL be better than Pleks will be and five years from now is when it's going to really matter.

And getting a player of Plek's abillities isn't that much of a stretch man. Esp with our scouting group and the fact that this is actually considered a very deep draft.
You make no sense, in 5 years he'll be as good. lol. what kind of ridiculous argument is this? Not only are you completely speculating, how the hell does that improve the situation.

We have to wait five years to get players as good as we already have. What exactly is your strategy, because I've yet to see one that makes improvements. Just a lot of newer is better type arguments, with no real plan to get better.

These arguments are so silly and most likely detrimental. Once you trade veterans for rookies in hopes of speeding up the process, you become columbus, edmonton, nyi and all the other teams that continually finish in the bottom of the standings each and every year. The one exception will probably be Edmonton, but Montreal is already too good to finish dead last 3 years in a row.

The nucleus is already too strong to finish near the basement. Getting top 5 picks aren't likely and tbh their the only somewhat sure things out of the entire 1st rd.

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01-19-2013, 05:40 PM
  #956
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
You make no sense, in 5 years he'll be as good. lol. what kind of ridiculous argument is this? Not only are you completely speculating, how the hell does that improve the situation.

We have to wait five years to get players as good as we already have. What exactly is your strategy, because I've yet to see one that makes improvements. Just a lot of newer is better type arguments, with no real plan to get better.

These arguments are so silly and most likely detrimental. Once you trade veterans for rookies in hopes of speeding up the process, you become columbus, edmonton, nyi and all the other teams that continually finish in the bottom of the standings each and every year. The one exception will probably be Edmonton, but Montreal is already too good to finish dead last 3 years in a row.

The nucleus is already too strong to finish near the basement. Getting top 5 picks aren't likely and tbh their the only somewhat sure things out of the entire 1st rd.
I don't think the 5 years + of high draft picks has impeded the teams you mention more than mismanagement has (esp. in the cases of COL and NYI). One of the main points of racking up picks and prospects is to strategically use some of them in trades for more established players to compliment your team. None of those teams have done that successfully. In EDM's case, for example, it might be in their best interest to dangle one of their studs up front for a blue line beast. And then use someone else to go get a goalie when the time is right.
The term "tanking" is misleading in that there aren't any teams that intentionally lose to acquire a high pick. In MTL's case, if by the trade deadline the team is clearly out of contention, someone like Plek or Cole or Markov might end up being dealt, but only if we stink. I doubt they'd move all of the above, but, based on the message of "patience" that was often uttered by management and the coaching staff during the off-season, I wouldn't be shocked to see them move one in an effort to stockpile picks if all is lost this season.

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01-19-2013, 05:45 PM
  #957
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I hope we tank hard this year, it would do wonders for our future. They should try to unload Gionta, Plakanec and Markov for draft picks.
Patof, why the Peladeau avatar?

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01-19-2013, 05:48 PM
  #958
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Originally Posted by jwolf View Post
I don't think the 5 years + of high draft picks has impeded the teams you mention more than mismanagement has (esp. in the cases of COL and NYI). One of the main points of racking up picks and prospects is to strategically use some of them in trades for more established players to compliment your team. None of those teams have done that successfully. In EDM's case, for example, it might be in their best interest to dangle one of their studs up front for a blue line beast. And then use someone else to go get a goalie when the time is right.
The term "tanking" is misleading in that there aren't any teams that intentionally lose to acquire a high pick. In MTL's case, if by the trade deadline the team is clearly out of contention, someone like Plek or Cole or Markov might end up being dealt, but only if we stink. I doubt they'd move all of the above, but, based on the message of "patience" that was often uttered by management and the coaching staff during the off-season, I wouldn't be shocked to see them move one in an effort to stockpile picks if all is lost this season.
Agreed and I have always supported your position or positions similar to this, but that's not what's being suggested, we trade almost all of them and not just at the deadline if we're out of it, but that should be the strategy entering the season. The idea is simply ridiculous. Owners, don't support this position, GMs most certainly don't or they'll be out of work in short order.

The ideas being proposed in this thread lead to never ending cycles of losing. You need a combination of youth, and veterans, and just because a guy is on the downside of his career doesn't mean he can't still be a valuable contributor to a good hockey team.

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01-19-2013, 06:01 PM
  #959
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
I'm not sure if anyone is suggesting that the value of each of these player is a first rounder. Pleks probably, if well sold. Cole and Markov we could get lucky, but they are more likely to be 2nd rounder returns. (And that in the context of a rebuild is still fine.)
I suggest you read some of the posts made a few pages back.

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01-19-2013, 06:09 PM
  #960
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Agreed and I have always supported your position or positions similar to this, but that's not what's being suggested, we trade almost all of them and not just at the deadline if we're out of it, but that should be the strategy entering the season. The idea is simply ridiculous. Owners, don't support this position, GMs most certainly don't or they'll be out of work in short order.

The ideas being proposed in this thread lead to never ending cycles of losing. You need a combination of youth, and veterans, and just because a guy is on the downside of his career doesn't mean he can't still be a valuable contributor to a good hockey team.
I'm not quite sure that this is the overwhelming opinion of the posters in this thread. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's more a thread dedicated to the promotion of realistic asset management. That's how I see it, anyway.

For example: if at the deadline we're completely out of it, but PHI is set to make a run and the only piece they're missing is a veteran PMD, do you give them Markov if it could get you Couturier? I'm not implying PHI would do that, but if they did...

I'd do that deal every day of the week and twice on Sunday. But maybe that's just me.

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01-19-2013, 06:14 PM
  #961
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Originally Posted by jwolf View Post
I'm not quite sure that this is the overwhelming opinion of the posters in this thread. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's more a thread dedicated to the promotion of realistic asset management. That's how I see it, anyway.

For example: if at the deadline we're completely out of it, but PHI is set to make a run and the only piece they're missing is a veteran PMD, do you give them Markov if it could get you Couturier? I'm not implying PHI would do that, but if they did...

I'd do that deal every day of the week and twice on Sunday. But maybe that's just me.
you can't speak of realistic management and then post an example like that...

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01-19-2013, 06:26 PM
  #962
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Originally Posted by TheGoalJudge View Post
I remember one time we traded Rivet for Gorges and a 1st (Patches).

Pretty good. I remember hundreds of other times we kept guys and fought for 8th. Look where we are now lol.

This is season is unique for rebuilding teams. We have the advantage. 48 game season means less terrible hockey for fans to endure. But there are 2 other main advantages to being a seller.

There will be less sellers because everyone theoretically will be very close and we now have the ability to eat salary so now contending teams can fit a guy like Gionta onto their roster.

Unless we come out of the gates looking like a brand new team, we're probably going to be ****. It is so stupid to not at least look at what we could get for some of our veterans. But to me, this list does not include Plekanec.
You may have forgotten that at the time, Rivet was playing so poorly he was barely our #4 D...

so yeah, if management can move an aging 5th D for a 1st and a prospect I want them to do it, even if we're contending...

but chances of that happenning again ? close to none.

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01-19-2013, 06:37 PM
  #963
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I thought this thread was closed...
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGoalJudge View Post
I remember one time we traded Rivet for Gorges and a 1st (Patches).

Pretty good. I remember hundreds of other times we kept guys and fought for 8th. Look where we are now lol.

This is season is unique for rebuilding teams. We have the advantage. 48 game season means less terrible hockey for fans to endure. But there are 2 other main advantages to being a seller.

There will be less sellers because everyone theoretically will be very close and we now have the ability to eat salary so now contending teams can fit a guy like Gionta onto their roster.

Unless we come out of the gates looking like a brand new team, we're probably going to be ****. It is so stupid to not at least look at what we could get for some of our veterans.
Yup.
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Originally Posted by TheGoalJudge View Post
But to me, this list does not include Plekanec.
Not suggesting we give him away. Part of the reason I've suggested dealing him is that I think we could get a good return. If we didn't... then keep him.

Just search the market to see what you can get.
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
Things are far from automatic. Louis Leblanc was drafted at #18 and just about no one thinks he will be better than Plekanec one day. And while there is a chance a first rounder could turn out better, it could also turn out worse. Andrei Kostitsym made the NHL and was drafted at #10. Mike Komisarek at #8. Chris Higgins, Kyle Chipchura and Alexander Perezhogin were first rounders and made the NHL, but none of these players are as good as Plekanec.
They don't have to be. I'd be happy with a Higgins calibre player who in five years is going to be better than Pleks will. He could also be much better as this is a deep draft and if I remember correctly Higgins' draft year was pretty thin.

We don't have much to lose and we have a lot to gain. Worst case is probably a push and its worth the risk because we aren't really risking anything.
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
On balance, looking at all the odds, I would not trade Pleks straight up for a first-rounder unless it is a top 6 or so. There is a greater chance we get less than get more.

Gionta, Cole, Markov, Bourque, Kaberle - yes, it could be a good thing to trade them. But Plekanec is down the list.
I don't think I'd deal Plecs for a first unless it was at least top ten either. If he doesn't fetch a good prospect or a top ten, then we pass. No point in trading him for the sake of it. I'd be going for the best prospect we could find.

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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
You make no sense, in 5 years he'll be as good. lol. what kind of ridiculous argument is this? Not only are you completely speculating, how the hell does that improve the situation.
It's been explained in detail by many posters. Go read the posts.
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
We have to wait five years to get players as good as we already have. What exactly is your strategy, because I've yet to see one that makes improvements. Just a lot of newer is better type arguments, with no real plan to get better.

These arguments are so silly and most likely detrimental. Once you trade veterans for rookies in hopes of speeding up the process, you become columbus, edmonton, nyi and all the other teams that continually finish in the bottom of the standings each and every year. The one exception will probably be Edmonton, but Montreal is already too good to finish dead last 3 years in a row.
We aren't going to be Columbus if we deal these aging vets. You're being silly. And it won't take 5 years for those prospects to start producing and in 5 years Cole and Markov will probably be out of the league...
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
The nucleus is already too strong to finish near the basement. Getting top 5 picks aren't likely and tbh their the only somewhat sure things out of the entire 1st rd.
So on the one hand the nucleus is too strong to finish in the basement and on the other we're going to become Columbus?

Which is it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwolf View Post
I'm not quite sure that this is the overwhelming opinion of the posters in this thread. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's more a thread dedicated to the promotion of realistic asset management. That's how I see it, anyway.

For example: if at the deadline we're completely out of it, but PHI is set to make a run and the only piece they're missing is a veteran PMD, do you give them Markov if it could get you Couturier? I'm not implying PHI would do that, but if they did...

I'd do that deal every day of the week and twice on Sunday. But maybe that's just me.
Yup, you got it. Sure would be nice to see the team start to see some of these guys as assets and capitalize on it.

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01-19-2013, 07:14 PM
  #964
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
you can't speak of realistic management and then post an example like that...
Realistic asset management: being realistic about the assets you manage. In other words, is it realistic to think you can contend for the Cup with the team you have in the next few years? If the answer is no, then it might be a good idea to see if you can address certain holes in your future lineup so you'll be able to contend sooner rather than later.
Whether Markov for Couturier is a realistic deal or not is of no consequence and completely misses the point.

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01-19-2013, 07:23 PM
  #965
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Originally Posted by jwolf View Post
Realistic asset management: being realistic about the assets you manage. In other words, is it realistic to think you can contend for the Cup with the team you have in the next few years? If the answer is no, then it might be a good idea to see if you can address certain holes in your future lineup so you'll be able to contend sooner rather than later.
Whether Markov for Couturier is a realistic deal or not is of no consequence and completely misses the point.
Actually it is, Markov for Couturier would be a great trade for the Habs, thing is it wont happen, just like Markov for an early 1st rounder will not happen, just like sending 6Mil Markov without taking any salary back probably wont happen... we wont get Yakupov or Huberdeau for Markov either, forget about it, we'd be extremely lucky to get a 1st round pick between 1st and 20th, the guy has been injured last 3 seasons, and he has another season on his contract, at 6 Mil...

give a REALISTIC example and then you can talk about realistic management...

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01-19-2013, 07:26 PM
  #966
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I thought this thread was closed...

Yup.

Not suggesting we give him away. Part of the reason I've suggested dealing him is that I think we could get a good return. If we didn't... then keep him.

Just search the market to see what you can get.

They don't have to be. I'd be happy with a Higgins calibre player who in five years is going to be better than Pleks will. He could also be much better as this is a deep draft and if I remember correctly Higgins' draft year was pretty thin.

We don't have much to lose and we have a lot to gain. Worst case is probably a push and its worth the risk because we aren't really risking anything.

I don't think I'd deal Plecs for a first unless it was at least top ten either. If he doesn't fetch a good prospect or a top ten, then we pass. No point in trading him for the sake of it. I'd be going for the best prospect we could find.


It's been explained in detail by many posters. Go read the posts.

We aren't going to be Columbus if we deal these aging vets. You're being silly. And it won't take 5 years for those prospects to start producing and in 5 years Cole and Markov will probably be out of the league...

So on the one hand the nucleus is too strong to finish in the basement and on the other we're going to become Columbus?

Which is it?

Yup, you got it. Sure would be nice to see the team start to see some of these guys as assets and capitalize on it.
I'm tired of reading them tbh, when you post things like a higgins type player who will be better than pleks in 5 years as the basis of your arguments, players of higgins caliber will never be better than pleks, no offense to higgins. At which time it will be time to move our currents youngsters and rinse and repeat. The strategy isn't a strategy that is realistic or necessary.

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01-19-2013, 07:27 PM
  #967
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You guys know we can sign players to replace the old guys we trade right?

What is this attachment to players like Gionta, Bourque, Cole, etc?

We are pretty good at signing mediocre to good players in FA. The problem is we can never land the big fish.

The only way to land superstars in our market seems to be the draft (ie. THEY HAVE NO CHOICE). Or trade. But teams don't trade star players for Gionta, Cole, Bourque, Markov etc.

They trade them for draft picks and young players.

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01-19-2013, 07:30 PM
  #968
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Originally Posted by TheGoalJudge View Post
You guys know we can sign players to replace the old guys we trade right?

What is this attachment to players like Gionta, Bourque, Cole, etc?

We are pretty good at signing mediocre to good players in FA
. The problem is we can never land the big fish.

The only way to land superstars in our market seems to be the draft (ie. THEY HAVE NO CHOICE). Or trade. But teams don't trade star players for Gionta, Cole, Bourque, Markov etc.

They trade them for draft picks and young players.
sayin' ?

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01-19-2013, 07:37 PM
  #969
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
sayin' ?
what?

We're good at signing the Coles and Giontas of the world. So we can sign them again. So let's trade them because they're old and if you miss them that much we can just sign the next incarnation of 2nd liner who wants to get overpaid.

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01-19-2013, 07:39 PM
  #970
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
I'm tired of reading them tbh, when you post things like a higgins type player who will be better than pleks in 5 years as the basis of your arguments, players of higgins caliber will never be better than pleks, no offense to higgins.
He doesn't have to be. Read the posts... you are either ignoring the point, distorting it or not getting it. Either way, you aren't gaining any points with this.

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At which time it will be time to move our currents youngsters and rinse and repeat. The strategy isn't a strategy that is realistic or necessary.
Realistic in the sense that it won't work? Absolutely not. Realistic in the sense that it won't happen? Probably true.

Necessary? It's not about HAVING to do it, it's about doing it because it's the right path... and it is. Now whether Molson and Bergevin understand this or not is a whole different story...
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGoalJudge View Post
You guys know we can sign players to replace the old guys we trade right?

What is this attachment to players like Gionta, Bourque, Cole, etc?

We are pretty good at signing mediocre to good players in FA. The problem is we can never land the big fish.

The only way to land superstars in our market seems to be the draft (ie. THEY HAVE NO CHOICE). Or trade. But teams don't trade star players for Gionta, Cole, Bourque, Markov etc.

They trade them for draft picks and young players.
Exactly. And it's not out of the realm of possibility to get a strong player like McD in the mid rounds esp in a deep draft.

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01-19-2013, 07:39 PM
  #971
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Originally Posted by TheGoalJudge View Post
what?

We're good at signing the Coles and Giontas of the world. So we can sign them again. So let's trade them because they're old and if you miss them that much we can just sign the next incarnation of 2nd liner who wants to get overpaid.
Agreed, we trade the Cole and Gionta for average prospects and late picks and then we sign players equivalent to them...

woah! recipe for success! actually, with such a recipe, we maybe top 12 in the east within the next 2 or 3 seasons...

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01-19-2013, 07:42 PM
  #972
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Agreed, we trade the Cole and Gionta for average prospects and late picks and then we sign players equivalent to them...

woah! recipe for success! actually, with such a recipe, we maybe top 12 in the east within the next 2 or 3 seasons...
I'm failing to see how this is a bad thing..........

You are against trading our 2nd liners for prospects and picks and then signing equivalent 2nd liners?

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01-19-2013, 07:45 PM
  #973
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Originally Posted by TheGoalJudge View Post
I'm failing to see how this is a bad thing..........

You are against trading our 2nd liners for prospects and picks and then signing equivalent 2nd liners?
it's not BAD... it's just a waste of time.

Doing all that to end up with players no better than the ones we have now... seriously, that's your plan ? or maybe you're another one of those who think we'll get top prospects and top picks for our aging 2nd liners ?

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01-19-2013, 07:48 PM
  #974
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
it's not BAD... it's just a waste of time.

Doing all that to end up with players no better than the ones we have now... seriously, that's your plan ? or maybe you're another one of those who think we'll get top prospects and top picks for our aging 2nd liners ?
So our plan is to just hope Gionta and Cole reverse the aging progress or Bourque becomes a good hockey player?

How do we change the team's future if we don't move out players? Are you drunk? I don't really understand lol.

We traded Rivet for Gorges and Pacioretty. I'm guessing you don't want to take that chance and then...just...keep our 2nd liners .... until they retire... and then sign their replacements?

I really don't get it lol.

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01-19-2013, 07:55 PM
  #975
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Originally Posted by TheGoalJudge View Post
So our plan is to just hope Gionta and Cole reverse the aging progress or Bourque becomes a good hockey player?

How do we change the team's future if we don't move out players? Are you drunk? I don't really understand lol.

We traded Rivet for Gorges and Pacioretty. I'm guessing you don't want to take that chance and then...just...keep our 2nd liners .... until they retire... and then sign their replacements?

I really don't get it lol.
of all the players named in this thread, only two (Plekanec / Cole) will still be under contract after 13/14 season...

Yup we did, Rivet who was having a really bad season, was our 5th D at that time, wasnt contributing in any way... trades like this RARELY happen, not even once a season...

You obviously don't.

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