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All Encompassing Tanking/Rebuilding/Selling at Deadline Thread 2.0

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Old
01-20-2013, 04:25 AM
  #51
damacles1156
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Habs started going for 8th place in 1993-1994.

It hasn't worked out.
I will agree with this though.

That is what sunk the Kings during 1997 to 2004, always trying to make that 8th seed.

It ended up costing the Kings lots of money, Draft picks, prospects (Olli Jokinen),Coaches, And ultimately Dave Taylor's job.

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01-20-2013, 04:34 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by TheGoalJudge View Post
All I know is that the guys against tanking this year have a plan consisting of guys like Gionta, Cole, Markov, Bourque and Kaberle either finding time machines or suddenly learning how to play hockey and then retiring off into the sunset after winning us multiple cups...after leading us to a bottom 3 finish last year.

Their Plan B seems to be improving our team significantly without moving out our veterans which basically means we are exempt from the salary cap.

I also have learned that they would rather see out the contracts of these players instead of trading them for multiple draft picks and prospects and then simply signing someone of equal value in free agency.
I don't think you'll find anyone who is opposed to trading Bourque or Kaberle. At most some will say give them this season to see if they can bounce back since they have no value right now.

I'd rather guys like Eller, Pacioretty, Galchenyuk play with and learn from guys like Gionta, Cole, Plekanec. If we give them roles/opportunities to succeed then they are more likely to reach their potential. Just throwing them out there with little support and letting them sink or swim won't help them

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01-20-2013, 04:35 AM
  #53
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facts as in, it works and it's been proven ?

don't think so...


GOOD ? as in 3rd line and bottom pairing good or as in top line and top pair good ? you also assume all of them will be regular NHLers by then ? will Pac find the same chimestry with another C than DD ? after his contract, once he's UFA will Emelin stay a Habs or will he go elsewhere ?
What is your counter argument then? What is your suggested plan? We are suggesting one, suggest another one that has a good chance of us winning the cup before we die.

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01-20-2013, 04:42 AM
  #54
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Not during the Rebuild, The Kings unloaded most of the vets for Draft picks.

Blake-Visnosky-Norrstrom-Cammy(not part of the core) .

The Kings unloaded a lot of older players for picks
.

People also forget that, luck have it The previous GM Struck gold with Kopitar/Brown/Quick. But That was after Taylor failed to progress the Kings in the playoff's and decided to start keeping his picks.

Then he was fired, and Lombardi Came in with full control and support of a proper rebuild.

Once the Kings traded for Richards, the rebuild was over.
In most cases, and oddly enough, the extra picks arent really helping (dont ask me why, I'm no psychic!)

2000
Kings have three 2nd rounders, Steckel never plays a game for LA, Bednar who played a whooping 102 games in the NHL and Cammalleri

2003
Kings have three 1st rounders, Brian Boyle (traded for a 3rd round pick), Tambellini (traded for pieces who werent part of the cup) and Brown

2006
Kings have two 1st rounder, Bernier and Lewis, who anyone would agree, werent really huge parts of the cup run...


2008
You could probably make a case for this one as Kings had two 1st round picks, Doughty and Teubert (traded for Penner)

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01-20-2013, 04:46 AM
  #55
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Ya you could probably make a case that Doughty helped them win the cup. Are you real?

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01-20-2013, 04:50 AM
  #56
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What is your counter argument then? What is your suggested plan? We are suggesting one, suggest another one that has a good chance of us winning the cup before we die.
I plan on living a very long life







Seriously, let Timmins work his magic at the draft, improve a WHOLE LOT at developping youngster, (arent you tired of hearing how much better our players are once traded ?). Surround your young players well (Cole, Plekanec or Markov as vets is ok - Gomez, Campoli or Kaberle, not so much).

There is no secret recipe for success. There's too many aspects to work on to focus on only one (tanking).

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01-20-2013, 04:51 AM
  #57
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that's exactly the problem: it's all about assumptions.

I'll help you out, if the ones to reach their ceiling are the ones with the least potential, so to speak, SOME help will not be enough...
When you have facts, do not use assumptions. I agree with you. I think we would all agree with you.

This is not possible in managing a pro sports club however. Assumptions are inevitable. It is the assumptions you make that count, and what evidence you base them on.

When you do not have fact, use intelligent assumptions based on evidence gathered over a long time.

This thread is based assumptions made with evidence, the evidence that high draft picks combined with timely trades and UFA acquisitions at the right time can win cups.

Again, present us with another model, we will listen.


Last edited by bsl: 01-20-2013 at 07:19 AM.
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Old
01-20-2013, 04:52 AM
  #58
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Ya you could probably make a case that Doughty helped them win the cup. Are you real?
learn how to read.

Doughty wasnt an "extra pick" it was their own

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01-20-2013, 04:54 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
When you have fact, do not use assumptions. I agree with you. I think we would all agree with you.

This is not possible in managing a pro sports club however. Assumptions are inevitable. It is the assumptions you make that count, and what evidence you base them on.

When you do not have fact, use intelligent assumptions based on evidence gathered over a long time.

This thread is based assumptions made with evidence, the evidence that high draft picks combined with timely trades and UFA acquisitions at the right time can win cups.

Again, present us with another model, we will listen.
That sure doesnt sound like "1year surgical tank" or anything. But it does sound like being good at what you do (in this case, manage a NHL team)

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01-20-2013, 04:55 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
learn how to read.

Doughty wasnt an "extra pick" it was their own
You know how they drafted 2nd overall? By rebuilding. Similarly, if the Habs had held on to Kostitsyn, Cammalleri and Gill last year we would not have drafted Galchenyuk.

The other pick that year was Teubert (not one of their own), traded for Dustin Penner who played a positive and productive role in the Kings cup run.

Let's look at the Kings core:

Doughty - tank pick
Kopitar - good pick
Brown - good pick
Quick - good 3rd round gem
Penner - acquired by giving up a good prospect
Richards - acquired by giving up two young players
Carter - acquired by giving up a 1st rounder and Jack Johnson
Scuderi - UFA signing

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01-20-2013, 04:57 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
You know how they drafted 2nd overall? By rebuilding.

The other pick that year was Teubert (not one of their own), traded for Dustin Penner who played a positive and productive role in the Kings cup run.

Let's look at the Kings core:

Doughty - tank pick
Kopitar - good pick
Brown - good pick
Quick - good 3rd round gem
Penner - acquired by giving up a good prospect
Richards - acquired by giving up two young players
Carter - acquired by giving up a 1st rounder and Jack Johnson
Scuderi - UFA signing
and you plan on doing as much within a "1 year surgical tank" ?

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01-20-2013, 04:58 AM
  #62
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Losing on purpose is for losers, but if I were in this position, unless Chucky shines, send him back to the minors, hold out on Subban, and play with what we got. We may end up with quite a high draft pick under these conditions, get Subban at the price the GM wants, and give Chucky a year to get better and stronger with a taste of 5 games.

I think this could be considered tanking, even if the players do give'r!
It is not tanking, it is intelligent management, based on the rules and realities of managing an NHL team today, not 30 years ago, but today, in this reality.

That is what we are really talking about. Good post.

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Old
01-20-2013, 04:59 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
You know how they drafted 2nd overall? By rebuilding. Similarly, if the Habs had held on to Kostitsyn, Cammalleri and Gill last year we would not have drafted Galchenyuk.

The other pick that year was Teubert (not one of their own), traded for Dustin Penner who played a positive and productive role in the Kings cup run.

Let's look at the Kings core:

Doughty - tank pick
Kopitar - good pick
Brown - good pick
Quick - good 3rd round gem
Penner - acquired by giving up a good prospect
Richards - acquired by giving up two young players
Carter - acquired by giving up a 1st rounder and Jack Johnson
Scuderi - UFA signing
considering how quickly we went down after firing JM, I highly doubt that.

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01-20-2013, 05:01 AM
  #64
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continue here. I'll leave it up to DAchampion if he wants to change the name of his thread.
Let me state now:

The day that the Habs are a contender, I will not post on this subject again. Until then, this topic is valid.

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01-20-2013, 05:06 AM
  #65
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Let me state now:

The day that the Habs are a contender, I will not post on this subject again. Until then, this topic is valid.
If things go as I expect, and the Habs draft top-5 and pick up an addition top-60 pick or two, then I'll start a thread in the summer outlining the 2-year surgical transition.

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01-20-2013, 05:11 AM
  #66
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Confused ? huh, considering you're the one talking about hockey and drafting as if it was a somewhat exact science... confused ? really...


look at all the contenders (not that there is that many) and tell me, wich ones are in dire needs of a 1st or 2nd line C ?


Galchenuys is in a learning phase, stripping the team from good vets pertty much guarantees he'll have no one to learn from - so to speak, and he'll develop better that way ? really ? comments like this makes me wonder if were involved in any sport, in any capacity, at any point in your life... seriously...


I suggest you get your facts straight.
No one has suggested stripping away every vet. Do not cloud this discussion please.

DA and others here are suggesting a logical plan based on evidence.

Of course it is not exact science. Almost nothing outside of good research Laboratories is. Thanks for telling us that.

What do you suggest we do instead? Rely on Magik? Confused stumbling guesses? The horoscope?

What is your plan?

God help me if I'm stuck in a bomb shelter with you, yapping all the time with no plan. We'd all die.

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01-20-2013, 05:24 AM
  #67
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No one has suggested stripping away every vet. Do not cloud this discussion please.

DA and others here are suggesting a logical plan based on evidence.

Of course it is not exact science. Almost nothing outside of good research Laboratories is. Thanks for telling us that.

What do you suggest we do instead? Rely on Magik? Confused stumbling guesses? The horoscope?

What is your plan?

God help me if I'm stuck in a bomb shelter with you, yapping all the time with no plan. We'd all die.
There's no secret recipe for building a contender. If there was everyone would use it. At the end of the day you simply have to be better at your job then most other GMs. You should have a vision for how you want your team to play but you can't plan which UFAs to sign, which prospects develop, which players you get via trades.

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01-20-2013, 05:30 AM
  #68
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No one has suggested stripping away every vet. Do not cloud this discussion please.

DA and others here are suggesting a logical plan based on evidence.

Of course it is not exact science. Almost nothing outside of good research Laboratories is. Thanks for telling us that.

What do you suggest we do instead? Rely on Magik? Confused stumbling guesses? The horoscope?

What is your plan?

God help me if I'm stuck in a bomb shelter with you, yapping all the time with no plan. We'd all die.
evidence ? the only "evidence" provided so far is that with better management we'd be a better team...

if anything, the suggestions made by DAC and co do sound like magic... seriously "surgical tank" what kind of bull is this...

wanna talk about drafting better ? fine
wanna talk about devellopement ? fine
... about ufa signings ? fine again

but please, dont turn this fantasy into anything more than it is. There's no such thing as "surgical tank", it's a nice dream but that's all it is.

Can't believe some of you, who all (except a few) look like intelligent, talk about this surgical nonsense as if it was an awesome idea.


Here, nothing magic, nothing innovative, nothing new, but proven to work: Unless you are a contender (wich we havent been in a while) keep your picks and prospects and work as hard as you can to developp them. If you arent good enough in an aspect (let's say, developping youngster) get people who'll help you get better in that aspect. Surround your youngsters well.

Dont do stuff like trading away Sergei for nothing or Latendresse for a player you'll let go for free 18 months later (or like they're about to do with Weber, lose him for almost nothing - while they didnt even bother to try him on D in this week thursday intra squad game)...

I mean, we traded Latendresse (who scored 33 goals in 82 games as a Wild) for Pouliot, whom we let go for nothing a year and a half later... during that time, Plekanec had to play with wingers such as Moen, Blunden, Staubitz, White and Geoffrion (and I think Pouliot scored more than all of em combined last season - or close)... pretty sure #14 would have LOVED to have Lats on his wing instead of the ones I named...

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01-20-2013, 05:31 AM
  #69
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There's no secret recipe for building a contender. If there was everyone would use it. At the end of the day you simply have to be better at your job then most other GMs. You should have a vision for how you want your team to play but you can't plan which UFAs to sign, which prospects develop, which players you get via trades.
this.

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01-20-2013, 05:37 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
They're 24 now.

I think the cup contention window, based on arguments I've presented before, can be 2015-2018 if a surgical rebuild is implemented.

They will be close to 30 when the cup window closes, that's part of why the cup window closes.
You do nothing to get proven roster players by 2015 lol. You're living in a pipe dream

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01-20-2013, 05:43 AM
  #71
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Kings traded youth for youth, they traded players in their early 20 for a +/- 25 years old Richards... and then traded a 25 yo Johnson for another 25 years old, Carter...

the Pens drafted top 5 five years in a row (Whitney, Fleury, Crosby, Malkin, Crosby)... and you can easily make the case for two of them being generational talents... in comparison, for the Habs to do that, they'd have to finish 26th or lower till the 16/17 season...

Chicago, the last time the Hawks got two picks or more in the first round before their cup win was in 2000*, they had two, two guys who played a combined 110 games in the NHL... they had more than a 2nd rounder multiple times, the best of the bunch, Bolland, was their own pick, the second best played for the Habs last season, Mike Blunden...

the "trade vets for extra picks" sure doesnt apply to them.


* same for Pens, last time they had two picks in the top 30 was in the late 80's / just to add, last time they had two 2nd round picks in the same draft was in 99', one of them never played the NHL, the other played around 50 games...
I'd hate for facts to get in the way of a good argument.

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01-20-2013, 05:47 AM
  #72
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There's no secret recipe for building a contender. If there was everyone would use it. At the end of the day you simply have to be better at your job then most other GMs. You should have a vision for how you want your team to play but you can't plan which UFAs to sign, which prospects develop, which players you get via trades.
Your argument is irrelevant as nobody here is suggesting we plan "which players to sign and which prospects to develop".

Part of the point of the surgical tank is to have redundancy. Yes, we could win a cup with a core of Galchenyuk/Subban/Price/Pacioretty, but only if everything goes right, which is unlikely. That's a good core but it doesn't have any redundancies, it's high-risk.

- By adding a top-5 pick, we improve our chances of having at least 1 superstar, never mind two.
- By adding several other top 60 picks, we introduce redunancies in our prospects who can become secondary player, and we will no longer need that each of Collberg, Tinordi, Beaulieu, Ellis, Kristo, Leblanc reach their ceilings; we'll be competitive if only a few of them reach their ceilings as we'll be doubling their ranks.
- We don't need to rely on specific players in the UFA market. We should go for the best players, and if we don't get them, too bad. Keep the cap space and try again next summer. Don't sign the leftovers as Gainey did a few times.

You can argue against planning all you want and in favor of being blind all you want, but the truth is each of the GMs of LA, Boston, Chicago, Pittsburgh, etc had plans. They didn't put contenders together by accident. You need a plan specific to your situation.

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01-20-2013, 05:49 AM
  #73
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You know how they drafted 2nd overall? By rebuilding. Similarly, if the Habs had held on to Kostitsyn, Cammalleri and Gill last year we would not have drafted Galchenyuk.

The other pick that year was Teubert (not one of their own), traded for Dustin Penner who played a positive and productive role in the Kings cup run.

Let's look at the Kings core:

Doughty - tank pick
Kopitar - good pick
Brown - good pick
Quick - good 3rd round gem
Penner - acquired by giving up a good prospect
Richards - acquired by giving up two young players
Carter - acquired by giving up a 1st rounder and Jack Johnson
Scuderi - UFA signing
Apparently you weren't following the standings with Cammy, Gill, and AK in the lineup. We were long our way to tanking long before those deals, they had no bearing on us getting Gally, however, it was the right move to gill and perhaps cammy, the ak trade was stupid on so many levels.

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01-20-2013, 05:58 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
evidence ? the only "evidence" provided so far is that with better management we'd be a better team...

if anything, the suggestions made by DAC and co do sound like magic... seriously "surgical tank" what kind of bull is this...

wanna talk about drafting better ? fine
wanna talk about devellopement ? fine
... about ufa signings ? fine again

but please, dont turn this fantasy into anything more than it is. There's no such thing as "surgical tank", it's a nice dream but that's all it is.

Can't believe some of you, who all (except a few) look like intelligent, talk about this surgical nonsense as if it was an awesome idea.


Here, nothing magic, nothing innovative, nothing new, but proven to work: Unless you are a contender (wich we havent been in a while) keep your picks and prospects and work as hard as you can to developp them. If you arent good enough in an aspect (let's say, developping youngster) get people who'll help you get better in that aspect. Surround your youngsters well.

Dont do stuff like trading away Sergei for nothing or Latendresse for a player you'll let go for free 18 months later (or like they're about to do with Weber, lose him for almost nothing - while they didnt even bother to try him on D in this week thursday intra squad game)...

I mean, we traded Latendresse (who scored 33 goals in 82 games as a Wild) for Pouliot, whom we let go for nothing a year and a half later... during that time, Plekanec had to play with wingers such as Moen, Blunden, Staubitz, White and Geoffrion (and I think Pouliot scored more than all of em combined last season - or close)... pretty sure #14 would have LOVED to have Lats on his wing instead of the ones I named...
I think DA should email his "plan" to Columbus, they just can't figure out how come all their high drafting isn't working out so well.

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01-20-2013, 06:30 AM
  #75
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I think DA should email his "plan" to Columbus, they just can't figure out how come all their high drafting isn't working out so well.
Bah...go see their trades and under-par drafting record. You can't build anything if you loose every trade you make and you draft (way) below average. They must really have the worst drafting the league right now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ts_draft_picks

Rebuilding for us is realist, Timmins already did prove his ability at rebuilding under Gainey. However poor asset management and a lack of patience made his work a bit fruitless in terms of results. We have to start integrating the young ones and make better choices about who we trade and what for. Let's hope Bergevin-Duddley are strong at that.

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