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I have the plutonium and enough space to get the Delorean up to 88mph
There has been no indication that any of our upcoming UFAs plan on leaving so I would like your sources?
I don't have a time machine, don't need one to justify what I posted anyways.
I used the word "likely" meaning that they could and I believe well *might* leave to free agency.
You guys have made the mistake of thinking that the word "likely" is an absolute statement of fact.
Had I meant that they will absolutely be leaving to free agency I would have said something to the effect of "the Leafs *will certainly* be losing all of these player to free agency" or something along those lines.
For not seeing that the Leafs might at least lose some or any of the players listed to free agency maybe you can enlighten me as to why you think that they might re-sign with TO. I see a team in TO that is missing a few critical pieces before they will be able to be considered a legitimate contender.
One is a first line center. Another is a goalie or at least you don't have one that has proven that they can be solid enough to lead you to the cup just yet. Along with a few holes on D that need to be filled.
So if you are a 29/30yo Lupul and you can see that your team is at least another year or so away from being a contender would you sign your big money UFA contract with them and gamble that they will be able to put something together that they haven't been able to in some time or would you go to a team that gives you a better more immediate chance of winning a cup?
Would you wait and see IF the Leafs can sign Perry, Getzlaf etc before you make a decision to stay? Maybe but more likely you will look out for your own best interests first.
The same argument can be used for the rest of your UFA's (for the most part). As for not seeing anything that makes you believe that your UFA's might leave well that's up to your own interpretation of things. Can you provide a link that says that they will for certain re-sign with the Leafs?
No, you can't.
Like I said, you have several key UFA's coming up this offseason and the next too. If you wait and hope that you can extend/re-sign them then you risk losing them for nothing too. Why take that risk when you have other holes to fill and a small group of talented young players that not only need ice time but also are the kind of players that are young and skilled enough to develop into your core?
Why not simply do what most every cup winning team does and that is continue to build solid young talent and depth through the draft and development? I don't see the Leafs winning a cup by hoping to retain players who are at the stage of their careers where they want to make large money and position themselves in the best possible way to win a cup (or one or the other).
If your plan is to continue on trying to hang on/re-sign all of your UFA's and hope pray think that you can fill your number one center position by backing up the armoured car to the best legitimate #1 center you can find and then do the same with a goalie D etc then why fire Burke?
Why not simply keep him and stay the path?
To me you have clear evidence that you plan on changing direction from the methodology of the Burke regime in the fact that you have A, changed your GM, B, dealt Lombardi for a pick and C, have moved on past Connolly. If your plan was to tread water again and hope that you can cash in on the next group of UFA's then why make any of the recent moves that the Leafs have?
My initial point is that to me it looks like the Leafs are going in the direction of a youth movement and I stand by it. I don't see any reason to think that any of your pending UFA's will stay in TO but they might. If they do though is there enough in TO for them to suddenly become contenders? It hasn't worked for a long time.
Last edited by Tonellisghost: 01-19-2013 at 05:25 PM.
I don't have a time machine, don't need one to justify what I posted anyways.
I used the word "likely" meaning that they could and I believe well *might* leave to free agency.
You guys have made the mistake of thinking that the word "likely" is an absolute statement of fact.
Had I meant that they will absolutely be leaving to free agency I would have said something to the effect of "the Leafs *will certainly* be losing all of these player to free agency" or something along those lines.
For not seeing that the Leafs might at least lose some or any of the players listed to free agency maybe you can enlighten me as to why you think that they might re-sign with TO. I see a team in TO that is missing a few critical pieces before they will be able to be considered a legitimate contender.
One is a first line center. Another is a goalie or at least you don't have one that has proven that they can be solid enough to lead you to the cup just yet. Along with a few holes on D that need to be filled.
So if you are a 29/30yo Lupul and you can see that your team is at least another year or so away from being a contender would you sign your big money UFA contract with them and gamble that they will be able to put something together that they haven't been able to in some time or would you go to a team that gives you a better more immediate chance of winning a cup?
Would you wait and see IF the Leafs can sign Perry, Getzlaf etc before you make a decision to stay? Maybe but more likely you will look out for your own best interests first.
The same argument can be used for the rest of your UFA's (for the most part). As for not seeing anything that makes you believe that your UFA's might leave well that's up to your own interpretation of things. Can you provide a link that says that they will for certain re-sign with the Leafs?
No, you can't.
Like I said, you have several key UFA's coming up this offseason and the next too. If you wait and hope that you can extend/re-sign them then you risk losing them for nothing too. Why take that risk when you have other holes to fill and a small group of talented young players that not only need ice time but also are the kind of players that are young and skilled enough to develop into your core?
Why not simply do what most every cup winning team does and that is continue to build solid young talent and depth through the draft and development? I don't see the Leafs winning a cup by hoping to retain players who are at the stage of their careers where they want to make large money and position themselves in the best possible way to win a cup (or one or the other).
If your plan is to continue on trying to hang on/re-sign all of your UFA's and hope pray think that you can fill your number one center position by backing up the armoured car to the best legitimate #1 center you can find and then do the same with a goalie D etc then why fire Burke?
Why not simply keep him and stay the path?
To me you have clear evidence that you plan on changing direction from the methodology of the Burke regime in the fact that you have A, changed your GM, B, dealt Lombardi for a pick and C, have moved on past Connolly. If your plan was to tread water again and hope that you can cash in on the next group of UFA's then why make any of the recent moves that the Leafs have?
My initial point is that to me it looks like the Leafs are going in the direction of a youth movement and I stand by it. I don't see any reason to think that any of your pending UFA's will stay in TO but they might. If they do though is there enough in TO for them to suddenly become contenders? It hasn't worked for a long time.
Leaving Toronto when your career did a 180 there the second you arrived for a team that's better can also turn out to be a huge mistake.
Leaving Toronto when your career did a 180 there the second you arrived for a team that's better can also turn out to be a huge mistake.
It's a big risk for him to leave Toronto imo.
That's a fair point but if he leaves it will be after a team has paid him money that he was happy enough with to do so. That also really only applies to one player too though.
Also, after I posted there is now a thread where Dreger said that he is hearing the the Leafs are talking with Lupul about a contract extension. Not the same as Lupul (Lupul's people is what Dreg said) contacting the Leafs but it is worth noting.
If Lupul does sign an extension with the Leafs it will make me re-think my position a little bit but I would still believe that it was a mistake for the Leafs long term success. Not that I am really concerned with that though.
While that's arguably true, it's also true for the bulk of the teams cited. And you're not about to convince me that, say, there was more talent on the Leafs blueline than the Jets "assuming all goes well". That's why folks measure these things by depth, not by raw talent. Phaneuf is legitimately good - like I said earlier, he's not the All-Star folks assumed he would be but is still much better than his detractors insist - but he's only one guy.
Heck, "assuming all goes well" the Jackets had a killer blueline last year. What we ended up with (thanks to injuries, underperformance, injuries, anticipations based on peak years, and more injuries) was one very good quality top pairing (Tyutin-Nikitin) backed by what ended up amounting to a bunch of AHLers, nobodies, and unready kids with a shaky young goaltender behind them. Hey, wait a sec, doesn't that sound familiar?
This brings back the original point, that the Leafs defensive issues last year were not from a lack of talent, they were from a lack of chemsistry, system, and playing to their capabilities.
Edm would never trade for Phaneuf. Our radio guy who works for the Oilers has mentioned many times that Phaneuf is a cancer in the locker room. When people have phoned in an suggested trading for Phaneuf he has said numerous times that they would never let him around the kids and they wouldn't trade for him. He said they would look at other options
Yeah, want nothing to do with Phaneuf,.........zilch....zero.
So let me get this straight, Bill Watters just stirring the pot against the same team that fired him? That is your source? You can't be serious right? Bill Watters is the 74385385 year old version of Steve Simmons.
Yeah, want nothing to do with Phaneuf,.........zilch....zero.
did you just quote bill watters for intel when he's one of the biggest jokes in toronto media?
...wow.
i want to laugh but i can't because I am actually shocked if that's what edmonton fans are listening to and believing in.
Regardless this is a very very unrealistic trade views in every aspect and contrary to popular believe our agents like to re-sign with us not walk away. Aka Lupul has started contract extension.
did you just quote bill watters for intel when he's one of the biggest jokes in toronto media?
...wow.
i want to laugh but i can't because I am actually shocked if that's what edmonton fans are listening to and believing in.
Regardless this is a very very unrealistic trade views in every aspect and contrary to popular believe our agents like to re-sign with us not walk away. Aka Lupul has started contract extension.
Wasn't Bill Watters fired by Leafs media multiple times for his personal witch hunts against everyone that wore the leafs jersey? Guy worked for Toronto and did nothing but instigate with leafs GM's because HE got fired from that position
I don't have a time machine, don't need one to justify what I posted anyways.
I used the word "likely" meaning that they could and I believe well *might* leave to free agency.
You guys have made the mistake of thinking that the word "likely" is an absolute statement of fact.
Had I meant that they will absolutely be leaving to free agency I would have said something to the effect of "the Leafs *will certainly* be losing all of these player to free agency" or something along those lines.
For not seeing that the Leafs might at least lose some or any of the players listed to free agency maybe you can enlighten me as to why you think that they might re-sign with TO. I see a team in TO that is missing a few critical pieces before they will be able to be considered a legitimate contender.
One is a first line center. Another is a goalie or at least you don't have one that has proven that they can be solid enough to lead you to the cup just yet. Along with a few holes on D that need to be filled.
So if you are a 29/30yo Lupul and you can see that your team is at least another year or so away from being a contender would you sign your big money UFA contract with them and gamble that they will be able to put something together that they haven't been able to in some time or would you go to a team that gives you a better more immediate chance of winning a cup?
Would you wait and see IF the Leafs can sign Perry, Getzlaf etc before you make a decision to stay? Maybe but more likely you will look out for your own best interests first.
The same argument can be used for the rest of your UFA's (for the most part). As for not seeing anything that makes you believe that your UFA's might leave well that's up to your own interpretation of things. Can you provide a link that says that they will for certain re-sign with the Leafs?
No, you can't.
Like I said, you have several key UFA's coming up this offseason and the next too. If you wait and hope that you can extend/re-sign them then you risk losing them for nothing too. Why take that risk when you have other holes to fill and a small group of talented young players that not only need ice time but also are the kind of players that are young and skilled enough to develop into your core?
Why not simply do what most every cup winning team does and that is continue to build solid young talent and depth through the draft and development? I don't see the Leafs winning a cup by hoping to retain players who are at the stage of their careers where they want to make large money and position themselves in the best possible way to win a cup (or one or the other).
If your plan is to continue on trying to hang on/re-sign all of your UFA's and hope pray think that you can fill your number one center position by backing up the armoured car to the best legitimate #1 center you can find and then do the same with a goalie D etc then why fire Burke?
Why not simply keep him and stay the path?
To me you have clear evidence that you plan on changing direction from the methodology of the Burke regime in the fact that you have A, changed your GM, B, dealt Lombardi for a pick and C, have moved on past Connolly. If your plan was to tread water again and hope that you can cash in on the next group of UFA's then why make any of the recent moves that the Leafs have?
My initial point is that to me it looks like the Leafs are going in the direction of a youth movement and I stand by it. I don't see any reason to think that any of your pending UFA's will stay in TO but they might. If they do though is there enough in TO for them to suddenly become contenders? It hasn't worked for a long time.
For one of the longest posts I have ever seen on HFboards, you provided very little sustenance to your initial remarks.
Outside of your long winded theories of the inner workings of a team of which you have zero connection to, you still haven't provided any links or sources to state that even ONE of our UFAs is planning to leave or unhappy with their current situation.
Lombardi and Connolly are your signs of change? Last week nobody on HFBoards wanted them, one gets traded the other gets waived and now all of our best players are just going to bail on the club? Looking at your other posts in other threads it is pretty clear you have an anti-leafs bias or pessimism pointed in their general direction
While Toronto does not have a good history of recently signing UFAs, please tell me the last star UFA in their prime who did not resign in Toronto? We have always retained our best players for as long as we want to keep them.
Edm would never trade for Phaneuf. Our radio guy who works for the Oilers has mentioned many times that Phaneuf is a cancer in the locker room. When people have phoned in an suggested trading for Phaneuf he has said numerous times that they would never let him around the kids and they wouldn't trade for him. He said they would look at other options
Imagine an EDMONTON announcer suggesting a top young player that was a member of the hated Flames is a cancer. You might want to look at the source and the agenda before you write it in your gospel.
Imagine an EDMONTON announcer suggesting a top young player that was a member of the hated Flames is a cancer. You might want to look at the source and the agenda before you write it in your gospel.
^this. I have no problem keeping Phaneuf and his terrible leadership: Golly I wish he was half as good as the oilers defense
Imagine an EDMONTON announcer suggesting a top young player that was a member of the hated Flames is a cancer. You might want to look at the source and the agenda before you write it in your gospel.
Hey your welcome to keep Phaneuf. I'm just telling you I don't see Edm ever trading for him. Our radio guy who is super connected o team and has called many things Oiler related says Edm wouldn't want him. End of story. He's also been talking about Phaneufs rep since he first got dealt to Tor. In either case keep The guy. I want no part of him and I'm pretty sure out team feels the same way
did you just quote bill watters for intel when he's one of the biggest jokes in toronto media?
...wow.
i want to laugh but i can't because I am actually shocked if that's what edmonton fans are listening to and believing in.
Regardless this is a very very unrealistic trade views in every aspect and contrary to popular believe our agents like to re-sign with us not walk away. Aka Lupul has started contract extension.
Tim Wharnsby was on Edm radio and he also mentioned Phaneuf and locker room issues. He mentioned potential issues between Scheen and Phaneuf last year
Tim Wharnsby was on Edm radio and he also mentioned Phaneuf and locker room issues. He mentioned potential issues between Scheen and Phaneuf last year
Pure speculation. Edmonton broadcaster should stick with the team he knows the most. Only person Phaneuf ended up having a slight issue with was Colborne and Phaneuf certainly was not in the wrong there. Schenn just could not compete as well as others and ended up being traded for a type of player that we needed.
I don't have a time machine, don't need one to justify what I posted anyways.
I used the word "likely" meaning that they could and I believe well *might* leave to free agency.
You guys have made the mistake of thinking that the word "likely" is an absolute statement of fact.[/B]
"Likely" is an indication of probability, and when you have nothing but completely baseless conjecture to back up your statements, I'd refrain from using it. The word "may" would have done a better job there.
Quote:
Had I meant that they will absolutely be leaving to free agency I would have said something to the effect of "the Leafs *will certainly* be losing all of these player to free agency" or something along those lines.
What a twist.
Quote:
So if you are a 29/30yo Lupul and you can see that your team is at least another year or so away from being a contender would you sign your big money UFA contract with them and gamble that they will be able to put something together that they haven't been able to in some time or would you go to a team that gives you a better more immediate chance of winning a cup?
If you are a 29/30yo Lupul and on your 3rd team in 4 four years, coming from a stint in which you played third line minutes and were a general write-off, would you skip out on not only the expanded role on the ice you have with the club -- alternate captain, 1st line minutes, playing with the NHL's 6th leading scorer, 1st unit PP time-- but off the ice as well, where you're a respected and active member of the community? Wouldn't you want the stability Toronto offers and the guarantee you won't be traded for Chris Pronger again?
There, look at that. Both our arguments are logically sound and equally meaningless.
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As for not seeing anything that makes you believe that your UFA's might leave well that's up to your own interpretation of things.
Lol and that makes yours what, the objective interpretation of things? The correct interpretation of things? That's pretty egotistical.
Quote:
Can you provide a link that says that they will for certain re-sign with the Leafs?
No, you can't.
Can you provide a link that says for certain you won't turn into a plate of spaghetti in half an hour? Can you say for certain that my phone won't turn into a Aston Martin while I'm typing this?
No, you can't. That's because proving something won't happen is non-falsifiable. Congratulations, keep using non-falsifiable statements and you'll never be technically wrong.
Quote:
Like I said, you have several key UFA's coming up this offseason and the next too. If you wait and hope that you can extend/re-sign them then you risk losing them for nothing too. Why take that risk when you have other holes to fill and a small group of talented young players that not only need ice time but also are the kind of players that are young and skilled enough to develop into your core?
I dunno, maybe cuz Kessel IS a skilled young player.
Quote:
Why not simply do what most every cup winning team does and that is continue to build solid young talent and depth through the draft and development?
Oh have the Leafs traded away every draft pick they own?
Retaining free agents is not mutually exclusive with building through the draft. I don't know what gave you that idea.
Quote:
I don't see the Leafs winning a cup by hoping to retain players who are at the stage of their careers where they want to make large money and position themselves in the best possible way to win a cup (or one or the other).
If your plan is to continue on trying to hang on/re-sign all of your UFA's and hope pray think that you can fill your number one center position by backing up the armoured car to the best legitimate #1 center you can find and then do the same with a goalie D etc then why fire Burke?
Why not simply keep him and stay the path?
To me you have clear evidence that you plan on changing direction from the methodology of the Burke regime in the fact that you have A, changed your GM, B, dealt Lombardi for a pick and C, have moved on past Connolly. If your plan was to tread water again and hope that you can cash in on the next group of UFA's then why make any of the recent moves that the Leafs have?
My initial point is that to me it looks like the Leafs are going in the direction of a youth movement and I stand by it. I don't see any reason to think that any of your pending UFA's will stay in TO but they might. If they do though is there enough in TO for them to suddenly become contenders? It hasn't worked for a long time.
Again, you're creating this weird dichotomy where the Leafs can't put an emphasis on keeping they're TWO good UFA forwards while simultaneously acquiring picks. You want clear evidence? Nonis is on record saying that he's not blowing the team up. So yeah, hate to ruin it for you, but it really is more of the same in Leafland.
This brings back the original point, that the Leafs defensive issues last year were not from a lack of talent, they were from a lack of chemsistry, system, and playing to their capabilities.
In a funny way, that's both accurate and completely wrong. Partly because I think the evaluation you're making here is based on talent ceilings - my counter to that is that if you evaluated every blueline in the NHL that way, Toronto would still have ended up close to the bottom of the conference due to lack of skilled depth. Probably not AT the bottom because there's plenty of guys who underachieved, some very significantly so (*cough*cough*schenn*cough*).
The bigger issue, though, is that there simply wasn't enough on the blueline to have a realistic expectation of getting by. Not unless luck was in your favor - and counting on that is generally a Bad Idea.
In theory, a top four of Phaneuf-Gunnarson, Liles-Schenn ought to be good and capable. No question, really. But to evaluate versus other bluelines, the next question you should ask yourself is "now, what if Schenn underperforms, or Liles gets injured", or similar - how do you patch one hole? If the answer is "pray that zero-prior-NHL-experience Gardiner can hit the ground running", you're probably in trouble. If it's "hope that all the experts and prior observers are wrong and that Franson doesn't actually need his minutes sheltered to perform", that's not good either. And if it's "maybe Komisarek will abruptly stop sucking"... duck and cover.
That sort of thing can work out sometimes, but if it doesn't, that's less ill fortune and more bad planning.
* * *
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7even
Can you provide a link that says for certain you won't turn into a plate of spaghetti in half an hour? Can you say for certain that my phone won't turn into a Aston Martin while I'm typing this?
No, you can't. That's because proving something won't happen is non-falsifiable. Congratulations, keep using non-falsifiable statements and you'll never be technically wrong.
You get a cookie.
__________________
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"Viqsi, you are our sweet humanist..." --mt-svk on the CBJ boards
Thanks, Howson, for cleaning up MacLean's toxic waste. Welcome, Kekalainen; let's get good things built!
For one of the longest posts I have ever seen on HFboards, you provided very little sustenance to your initial remarks.
Outside of your long winded theories of the inner workings of a team of which you have zero connection to, you still haven't provided any links or sources to state that even ONE of our UFAs is planning to leave or unhappy with their current situation.
Lombardi and Connolly are your signs of change? Last week nobody on HFBoards wanted them, one gets traded the other gets waived and now all of our best players are just going to bail on the club? Looking at your other posts in other threads it is pretty clear you have an anti-leafs bias or pessimism pointed in their general direction
While Toronto does not have a good history of recently signing UFAs, please tell me the last star UFA in their prime who did not resign in Toronto? We have always retained our best players for as long as we want to keep them.
The reason(s) that I am not providing any links/sources is that like I explained in the simplest manner possible I never said that any of the several coming UFA's were leaving as a matter of fact.
Again, the word likely was specifically used to indicate that I am making a speculative point. I then give several reasons for I think that they might actually leave.
I don't need to provide you any links or sources because I have never said anything that would require the need to provide any. I then outline why I am speculating that the Leafs look like they can lose some of their several pending free agents to the free agent market in detail.
I haven't any "anti-Leaf bias" or "pessimism pointed" at the Leafs at all. The Leafs are not my team and like everyone else in the world I at best have a passing interest in what happens with every other team. These are bulletin boards on the internet, I read a thread and comment on the ones that interest me. It is as simple as that.
The Leafs are merely every other team than the one I support. I haven't any more dislike for them than I do for any other team in the NHL.
Sorry, I tried to explain my position in the simplest way possible. I will try again below for you.
I think that it is *possible* that the Leafs will see a number of their coming UFA's leave to free agency because they are at or around their primes, a time when most players look to get their biggest contracts and if they are not on a team that is poised to contend for a shot at the cup can also look to move to a team that will give them their best chance at winning one. I then said that I think that the Leafs, even with their free agents are a few key pieces away from being a legitimate contender.
I also said that *if* the Leafs are planning on trying to continue building by trying to add UFA's to fill their holes that it is what they have done in the past and that it hasn't worked yet. I then go on to say that the Leafs have some good prospects/young players that they can use to build around and that doing so is what successful teams have done more so than trying to build a winner by building largely through free agency.
No need to post sources or links for what are opinions and not statements of fact.
I hope that this post helps.
Last edited by Tonellisghost: 01-20-2013 at 11:14 AM.
