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P.K Subban Thread 4.0 - Still Unsigned Edition

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01-20-2013, 09:46 AM
  #176
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Kessel is the only one I remember fetching a lot.
Burkie isn't working anymore...wonder why?

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01-20-2013, 09:46 AM
  #177
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Trade PK

This team is going nowhere with or without PK. Trade him now straight up for Benn and then move Pleks or Desh for a winger or dman.

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01-20-2013, 09:47 AM
  #178
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all it takes is a player that doesn't want to follow a team idea (Bridge contract) A GM that does not and SHOULD not blink and a team that do not like said player to the extreme (at least of the ice and in the locker room)

Sadly, when these three things are in effect, last thing to do is to trade the player...

Don't get me wrong, i'll be piss, i love PK, but no one NO ONE is bigger than the team or the game....
Why is a bridge contract inherently good for the team?

Let's look at what Pacioretty did in the NHL on his ELC:

2008-09 34-3-8-11
2009-10 52-3-11-14
2010-11 37-14-10-24

Signed for 3.25/2. He showed some promise over half a year in the last year of his contract, but nothing that deserves a big pay check. He also ended the year on the IR after the Chara hit. Who knew what he'd be like when he came back. Bridge contract makes sense for both the team and Pacioretty.

Price on his ELC:

2007-08 GP-41 W-24 L-12 OTL-3 GAA-2.56 SV%-0.920
Playoffs GP-11 W-5 L-6 GAA-2.78 SV%-0.901

2008-09 GP-52 W-23 L-16 OTL-10 GAA-2.83 SV%-0.905
Playoffs GP-4 W-0 L-4 GAA-4.11 SV%-0.878

2009-10 GP-41 W-13 L-20 OTL-5 GAA-2.77 SV%-0.912
Playoffs GP-4 W-0 L-1 GAA-3.56 SV%-0.890

Signed for 5.5/2. Started his career at a ridiculous level and then had some hiccups. Lost starting job to Halak in the final year of his ELC. Contract cap hit reflects being a below average to average starter. Bridge contract makes sense to both team and Price: team sees what they have in him before locking him up and Price gets a chance to prove his worth.

Gorges:

Not comparable. Bridge contract was not signed after ELC. Ended pre-bridge contract year on IR.

Subban on ELC:

2009-10 2-0-0-0
Playoffs 14-1-7-8

2010-11 77-14-24-38
Playoffs 7-2-2-4

2011-12 81-7-29-36

He's put up okay stats (just squeaked into the top 30 of D scoring the past two years). He's always played long, tough minutes (he's never really been sheltered) and last year he played really well in those minutes (the advanced stats put him up there with the best in the league). You know what you're getting with Subban a lot more than the others at the same stage in their careers and like the others, he still has the potential to grow.

So what does the bridge contract gain for the team? He's shown what he can do as our #1 D for a year and a half and excelled in tough minutes (according to the advanced stats), so it's not like you need to see him play unsheltered minuted or see how he's going to rebound from a serious injury (like Pacioretty). On the whole, he has also been consistent on a year to year level, so you don't have to give him that extra couple years to really zero in on what you have on him like you did with Price (who had his high highs and low lows). What does a bridge contract gain?

The way I see it, he put up top 30 stats on a crap team in disarray with a crap powerplay, so his counting stats have no where to go but up (and that's ignoring any improvements to his own game), so if you sign him to a bridge contract, you're just shooting yourself in the foot because I don't think we'll ever be able to lock him up long term for as cheaply as we can now.

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01-20-2013, 09:51 AM
  #179
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Burkie isn't working anymore...wonder why?
Exactly!

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01-20-2013, 09:54 AM
  #180
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Why is a bridge contract inherently good for the team?

Let's look at what Pacioretty did in the NHL on his ELC:

2008-09 34-3-8-11
2009-10 52-3-11-14
2010-11 37-14-10-24

Signed for 3.25/2. He showed some promise over half a year in the last year of his contract, but nothing that deserves a big pay check. He also ended the year on the IR after the Chara hit. Who knew what he'd be like when he came back. Bridge contract makes sense for both the team and Pacioretty.

Price on his ELC:

2007-08 GP-41 W-24 L-12 OTL-3 GAA-2.56 SV%-0.920
Playoffs GP-11 W-5 L-6 GAA-2.78 SV%-0.901

2008-09 GP-52 W-23 L-16 OTL-10 GAA-2.83 SV%-0.905
Playoffs GP-4 W-0 L-4 GAA-4.11 SV%-0.878

2009-10 GP-41 W-13 L-20 OTL-5 GAA-2.77 SV%-0.912
Playoffs GP-4 W-0 L-1 GAA-3.56 SV%-0.890

Signed for 5.5/2. Started his career at a ridiculous level and then had some hiccups. Lost starting job to Halak in the final year of his ELC. Contract cap hit reflects being a below average to average starter. Bridge contract makes sense to both team and Price: team sees what they have in him before locking him up and Price gets a chance to prove his worth.

Gorges:

Not comparable. Bridge contract was not signed after ELC. Ended pre-bridge contract year on IR.

Subban on ELC:

2009-10 2-0-0-0
Playoffs 14-1-7-8

2010-11 77-14-24-38
Playoffs 7-2-2-4

2011-12 81-7-29-36

He's put up okay stats (just squeaked into the top 30 of D scoring the past two years). He's always played long, tough minutes (he's never really been sheltered) and last year he played really well in those minutes (the advanced stats put him up there with the best in the league). You know what you're getting with Subban a lot more than the others at the same stage in their careers and like the others, he still has the potential to grow.

So what does the bridge contract gain for the team? He's shown what he can do as our #1 D for a year and a half and excelled in tough minutes (according to the advanced stats), so it's not like you need to see him play unsheltered minuted or see how he's going to rebound from a serious injury (like Pacioretty). On the whole, he has also been consistent on a year to year level, so you don't have to give him that extra couple years to really zero in on what you have on him like you did with Price (who had his high highs and low lows). What does a bridge contract gain?

The way I see it, he put up top 30 stats on a crap team in disarray with a crap powerplay, so his counting stats have no where to go but up (and that's ignoring any improvements to his own game), so if you sign him to a bridge contract, you're just shooting yourself in the foot because I don't think we'll ever be able to lock him up long term for as cheaply as we can now.
Nice analysis. So you give him league top 5D, 10D, 20D or 30D money on a 6 year contract?

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01-20-2013, 09:56 AM
  #181
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About the Raptors thing. PK can do anything he wants, he can go skiing if he wants to because he's entitled to live his life as he wishes. One thing though: don't you think announcing his presence at a Raptors game in advance is not something well thought out though. Because the season has started and that his 'contrat issue' has been put on the back burner even here in Montreal, his agents wants him to be visible. Not impossible that Meehan told him to be more visible in Toronto. Not impossible. Keeps the name in the spotlight. Puts pressure on the Habs. If I were an agent, I would do it.

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01-20-2013, 09:58 AM
  #182
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...
The way I see it, he put up top 30 stats on a crap team in disarray with a crap powerplay, so his counting stats have no where to go but up (and that's ignoring any improvements to his own game), so if you sign him to a bridge contract, you're just shooting yourself in the foot because I don't think we'll ever be able to lock him up long term for as cheaply as we can now.
When something makes sense, numbers and reason backs it up well. Good post.

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01-20-2013, 09:59 AM
  #183
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Say Pacioretty is going to watch a movie tonight. You're going to be pissed about that too? I mean he just lost, how come he isn't home reflecting on the loss.
No one would say a thing about Pacioretty watching a movie... in Montreal, anyways.

In Boston, they usually have a field day with news like that

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01-20-2013, 10:02 AM
  #184
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This team is going nowhere with or without PK. Trade him now straight up for Benn and then move Pleks or Desh for a winger or dman.
Then the team would be going nowhere with Benn or anyone else the trade would bring in. So what's the point?

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01-20-2013, 10:08 AM
  #185
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You seem very polarized yet you don't know PK's demands. Perhaps PK is being unreasonable in his demands. The truth is you don't know. All we know is he did not sign yet and missed training camp, the home opener and likely the next few games.
I'm as polarized as you are. I have an opinion and you have the opposite one. Not sure what you are trying to imply with that.

We know one thing. Bergevin is insisting on a bridge contract. A bridge contract is dumb in Subban's case (See Genghis Keon's post who explained it very well) . It will only hurt the team. We should be signing him to a long term deal like we signed Price and Pacioretty.

And you can be certain that whatever Subban+Meehan feel he is worth now will only go up after a bridge contract.

As for his demands being unreasonable. I'm going to go ahead and side with the level headed young man with the best agent in the business over the rookie GM with zero education who can barely speak any language. Other teams jump at the chance to ink young talent like Subban to long term deals out of their ELC but not Bergevin... he'd rather stand his ground, create controversy that this team doesn't need and paint himself in a corner.

I'm willing to bet that if Bergevin had offered 8 years 37.5M-40M last summer, PK would be in the line up right now. But that's just a guess on my part.

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01-20-2013, 10:12 AM
  #186
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We need him no doubt. But, at this point I think the habs may want to send a message about how they are doing bussiness from now on. Trade him to Nashville for picks We have a LOT of young players in our system, especially D, that could pull the same garbage in the near future IMO.

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01-20-2013, 10:15 AM
  #187
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Nice analysis. So you give him league top 5D, 10D, 20D or 30D money on a 6 year contract?
I think everyone can agree he's worth more than Can Fowler (20/5, 4 million average) and less than Doughty (56/8, 7 million average) and Karlsson (45.5/7, 6.5 million average), so I'd be happy anywhere in the 4.5-5.5 per year range. You can't give him 6 because it's too close to Karlsson (and I think that's an easy argument to win at the negotiation table because Karlsson just put up a point per game and won the damn Norris). I think 5 a year is fair, 4.5 would be better for the team, and I would begrudgingly put up with 5.5.

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01-20-2013, 10:16 AM
  #188
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We need him no doubt. But, at this point I think the habs may want to send a message about how they are doing bussiness from now on. Trade him to Nashville for picks We have a LOT of young players in our system, especially D, that could pull the same garbage in the near future IMO.
We need him no doubt but trade him for picks ?

And trade him to send a message ? What kind of message is that, that he is dumb enough to waste assets over a line in the sand he should never have drawn in the first place ?

I don't know..

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01-20-2013, 10:18 AM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Genghis Keon View Post
I think everyone can agree he's worth more than Can Fowler (20/5, 4 million average) and less than Doughty (56/8, 7 million average) and Karlsson (45.5/7, 6.5 million average), so I'd be happy anywhere in the 4.5-5.5 per year range. You can't give him 6 because it's too close to Karlsson (and I think that's an easy argument to win at the negotiation table because Karlsson just put up a point per game and won the damn Norris). I think 5 a year is fair, 4.5 would be better for the team, and I would begrudgingly put up with 5.5.
If you go to 5 years, why not go to 7 or 8 years ?

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01-20-2013, 10:19 AM
  #190
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This team is going nowhere with or without PK. Trade him now straight up for Benn
So we can then refuse to give Benn anything more than a bridge contract too?

And did I really read people ripping him for attending a basketball game? Just ridiculous.

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01-20-2013, 10:27 AM
  #191
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If you go to 5 years, why not go to 7 or 8 years ?
Yeah, I'd go 7 or 8 years for sure. If we can lock him up at 35/7 or 40/8, I'd be thrilled.

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01-20-2013, 10:29 AM
  #192
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A note on being a "locker room cancer". Even if it is true that PK is seen as such in the locker room (and I highly doubt this is true)... it shouldn't be relevant.

Maybe someone with a better grasp of recent hockey history can offer concrete examples, but I'm pretty sure there have been real characters in successful hockey teams past. Put 30 guys with a lot of testosterone in the same room together, there's bound to be one or two real ***holes. It's natural.

But here's the thing, if you're winning, no one cares. Bottom line is: we know PK is good. He's really good. He's the best, most dynamic and most well-rounded Habs D-man we've seen in the past half decade. His supposed "attitude" (which I like! ) makes media headlines, but let's focus on what we've seen. An excellent young hockey player. That is all.

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01-20-2013, 10:31 AM
  #193
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I'm as polarized as you are. I have an opinion and you have the opposite one. Not sure what you are trying to imply with that.

We know one thing. Bergevin is insisting on a bridge contract. A bridge contract is dumb in Subban's case (See Genghis Keon's post who explained it very well) . It will only hurt the team. We should be signing him to a long term deal like we signed Price and Pacioretty.

And you can be certain that whatever Subban+Meehan feel he is worth now will only go up after a bridge contract.

As for his demands being unreasonable. I'm going to go ahead and side with the level headed young man with the best agent in the business over the rookie GM with zero education who can barely speak any language. Other teams jump at the chance to ink young talent like Subban to long term deals out of their ELC but not Bergevin... he'd rather stand his ground, create controversy that this team doesn't need and paint himself in a corner.


I'm willing to bet that if Bergevin had offered 8 years 37.5M-40M last summer, PK would be in the line up right now. But that's just a guess on my part.
Way to be rational there!

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01-20-2013, 10:35 AM
  #194
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The only one that was putrid was Gorges, and that's probably from not having played a game in like 9 months. Not sure what game you were watching? Half the forwards were skating in cement(Cole Pacioretty Gionta Moen) which led to a struggle territorially to establish offense.
I watched the game where the Montreal blueliners were terrible. Emelin looked okay by times - Kaberle, Gorges, Markov, Bouillon and Diaz all looked like fecal matter.

What game did you watch where the defense looked good?

Although I'll agree that the forwards like Plekanec, Moen, Cole also played terrible.

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01-20-2013, 10:38 AM
  #195
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We need him no doubt but trade him for picks ?

And trade him to send a message ? What kind of message is that, that he is dumb enough to waste assets over a line in the sand he should never have drawn in the first place ?

I don't know..
Umm, because he won't sign?

Yep, the Hab's future is more important that one player's greed. There is no "I" in team.

This just my opinion as a fan. If he does get a big contract and doesn't develop into the player his pay would indicate almost immediately? Bad times me thinks

I might be tempted to think the Hab's brass know this and are trying to prevent it. Interesting thought none the less.

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01-20-2013, 10:40 AM
  #196
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I'm as polarized as you are. I have an opinion and you have the opposite one. Not sure what you are trying to imply with that.

We know one thing. Bergevin is insisting on a bridge contract. A bridge contract is dumb in Subban's case (See Genghis Keon's post who explained it very well) . It will only hurt the team. We should be signing him to a long term deal like we signed Price and Pacioretty.

And you can be certain that whatever Subban+Meehan feel he is worth now will only go up after a bridge contract.

As for his demands being unreasonable. I'm going to go ahead and side with the level headed young man with the best agent in the business over the rookie GM with zero education who can barely speak any language. Other teams jump at the chance to ink young talent like Subban to long term deals out of their ELC but not Bergevin... he'd rather stand his ground, create controversy that this team doesn't need and paint himself in a corner.

I'm willing to bet that if Bergevin had offered 8 years 37.5M-40M last summer, PK would be in the line up right now. But that's just a guess on my part.
I'll state my position again just to be 100% clear. And I would appreciate you stating yours clearly as well on what you think a fair deal would be. I'm fine with a 7 year 5 million deal. If PK wants more I am of the opinion he does not deserve it yet, it's too early for him to get a long-term 6+ deal. If that's the case a bridge contract is needed before he gets the big bucks (I would say 1-2 years at 4.5 or so). If Bergevin is balking at a 7 year 5 million contract he's not doing a good job. If PK is refusing 7 year at 5 million or balking at the idea of any short-term contract then he's being unreasonable.

We just dont really know what's on the table.


Last edited by onebighockeyfan: 01-20-2013 at 10:44 AM. Reason: typo
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01-20-2013, 10:40 AM
  #197
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A note on being a "locker room cancer". Even if it is true that PK is seen as such in the locker room (and I highly doubt this is true)... it shouldn't be relevant.

Maybe someone with a better grasp of recent hockey history can offer concrete examples, but I'm pretty sure there have been real characters in successful hockey teams past. Put 30 guys with a lot of testosterone in the same room together, there's bound to be one or two real ***holes. It's natural.

But here's the thing, if you're winning, no one cares. Bottom line is: we know PK is good. He's really good. He's the best, most dynamic and most well-rounded Habs D-man we've seen in the past half decade. His supposed "attitude" (which I like! ) makes media headlines, but let's focus on what we've seen. An excellent young hockey player. That is all.
Speaking of PK's attitude.

Let's look in the past a little bit and remind ourselves of what one Price did :
1-Raised his hands in the air a la Roy. Reminding us of the worst day in habs history (top 5 certainly). Classy, not to mention ridiculous because he had accomplished nothing at all.
2-Washington nationals cap. Quite the faux pas.
3-Telling the fans to chill after having provided subpar efforts in the few years before that.
4-Party hard, smoke, and not train very hard.
5-Yap at his teammate for their play on the ice.

I can only imagine what the reaction would be if PK had done any of those things let alone all of them. He'd be the antichrist.

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01-20-2013, 10:41 AM
  #198
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The more the team loses, the worse PK being separated from the team is going to be...such a pointless controversy. This will be more detrimental long term IMO compared to Bergervin's contract standards not being met this once.

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01-20-2013, 10:44 AM
  #199
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I'll state my position again just to be 100% clear. And I would appreciate you stating yours clearly as well on what you think a fair deal would be. I'm fine with a 7 year 5 million deal. If PK wants more I am of the opinion he does not deserve it yet, it's to early for him to get a long-term 6+ deal. If that's the case a bridge contract is needed before he gets the big bucks (I would say 1-2 years at 4.5 or so). If Bergevin is balking at a 7 year 5 million contract he's not doing a good job. If PK is refusing 7 year at 5 million or balking at the idea of any short-term contract then he's being unreasonable.

We just dont really know what's on the table.
If Bergevin is willing to give him the term, then Subban should concede on the amount. A long term deal in the 6-8 years range for 4.5M-5.5M / per would seem fair to me.

But if Bergevin insists on a stupid bridge contract. I think Subban should ask for 6M. So I'd say 12M for 2 years.

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01-20-2013, 10:45 AM
  #200
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Speaking of PK's attitude.

Let's look in the past a little bit and remind ourselves of what one Price did :
1-Raised his hands in the air a la Roy. Reminding us of the worst day in habs history (top 5 certainly). Classy, not to mention ridiculous because he had accomplished nothing at all.
2-Washington nationals cap. Quite the faux pas.
3-Telling the fans to chill after having provided subpar efforts in the few years before that.
4-Party hard, smoke, and not train very hard.
5-Yap at his teammate for their play on the ice.

I can only imagine what the reaction would be if PK had done any of those things let alone all of them. He'd be the antichrist.
1. Dumb move by Price, but the fans really need to calm down with their booing and sarcastic cheers towards their own players.
2. A baseball cap defines a person's attitude? Nope.
3. Again, fans booing Price after a pre-season game. Glad Price put them in their place before playing his best season of his career thus far.
4. You do not know anything about his training regimen, please don't assume you do by the couple of pictures of him having a smoke, a drink, and hunting. His personal life does not reflect who he is in the dressing room.
5. Only dumb thing Price has done that you mentioned. Markov seemed to fix that though, so I hope he doesn't continue his yapping.

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