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TOR Rebuild

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Old
01-20-2013, 11:09 AM
  #151
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
The Flyers and Lightning defense does not look good at all. Same with Carolina. and Pittsburgh has terrible depth on D.
And what about Jake Gardiner and Cody Franson?
What about 7th d Franson ?

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Old
01-20-2013, 11:14 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by RealisticLeaf55 View Post
Wasn't Bill Watters fired by Leafs media multiple times for his personal witch hunts against everyone that wore the leafs jersey? Guy worked for Toronto and did nothing but instigate with leafs GM's because HE got fired from that position
Yes. He's sort of had an agenda against the leafs for a while and it's been present for a long long time. It's pretty sad when you used to see him in tv.
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Originally Posted by birddog View Post
Imagine an EDMONTON announcer suggesting a top young player that was a member of the hated Flames is a cancer. You might want to look at the source and the agenda before you write it in your gospel.
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Originally Posted by RealisticLeaf55 View Post
^this. I have no problem keeping Phaneuf and his terrible leadership: Golly I wish he was half as good as the oilers defense
Pretty much...battle of alberta I don't much expect others to be pleasant about the flames.
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Originally Posted by doubledown99 View Post
Hey your welcome to keep Phaneuf. I'm just telling you I don't see Edm ever trading for him. Our radio guy who is super connected o team and has called many things Oiler related says Edm wouldn't want him. End of story. He's also been talking about Phaneufs rep since he first got dealt to Tor. In either case keep The guy. I want no part of him and I'm pretty sure out team feels the same way
Yea well Calgary said the same thing...so did the bruins for thornton. I find it ironic that one of the Edmonton fan doesn't want the services of Dion, when that is one of the weakest areas for your team. I have reps in Toronto and where the team is and belongs, doesn't mean I go tell everyone the secrets I know. All I can say is what is being spewed is just hilarious and it's even more golden that's is coming from the mouth of bill waters.

Regardless, lets end the phaneuf talk here and continue with the OP's proposal, please and thank you.

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Old
01-20-2013, 11:23 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by dan1el View Post
The Carolina deal is brutal. The rest of them aren't actually terrible.
For whom?

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Old
01-20-2013, 11:47 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by A1LeafNation View Post
So when do we get to the realistic part?
The second line of the post, if cared to read it.

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Old
01-20-2013, 11:48 AM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
In a funny way, that's both accurate and completely wrong. Partly because I think the evaluation you're making here is based on talent ceilings - my counter to that is that if you evaluated every blueline in the NHL that way, Toronto would still have ended up close to the bottom of the conference due to lack of skilled depth. Probably not AT the bottom because there's plenty of guys who underachieved, some very significantly so (*cough*cough*schenn*cough*).

The bigger issue, though, is that there simply wasn't enough on the blueline to have a realistic expectation of getting by. Not unless luck was in your favor - and counting on that is generally a Bad Idea.

In theory, a top four of Phaneuf-Gunnarson, Liles-Schenn ought to be good and capable. No question, really. But to evaluate versus other bluelines, the next question you should ask yourself is "now, what if Schenn underperforms, or Liles gets injured", or similar - how do you patch one hole? If the answer is "pray that zero-prior-NHL-experience Gardiner can hit the ground running", you're probably in trouble. If it's "hope that all the experts and prior observers are wrong and that Franson doesn't actually need his minutes sheltered to perform", that's not good either. And if it's "maybe Komisarek will abruptly stop sucking"... duck and cover.

That sort of thing can work out sometimes, but if it doesn't, that's less ill fortune and more bad planning.

* * *


You get a cookie.

Luck required? not at all. Every team is going to have some guys underachieve, the Leafs were very well positioned for one or two guys... not 5.

The fact is, Komisarek is a proven top shutdown defenceman in the league. He underachieved for years under Ron Wilson. He was slated for our bottom pair. He should've been able to step up for Schenn, who should've played much better than he was.

Franson would've been in a similar position with Liles. You've got a young guy with great puck skills who should've continued developing and earning more minutes. If/when Liles got hurt, he should've been able to step up into the top 4 alongside Schenn without a problem. Last year, the Leafs issues in terms of talent had nothing to do with a lack of depth, it was that their top pair wasn't particularly good as far as top pairs go. They did have 3 pairs who all should've been reasonably capable of playing top 4 minutes though... and that's without Gardiner.

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Old
01-20-2013, 11:50 AM
  #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by candyman82 View Post
Columbus had Antoine Vermette very recently. No way would the rebuilding Jackets acquire Grabovski, especially for a 1st round pick
Ummm...

Grabo>>>>>>Vermette

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Old
01-20-2013, 11:52 AM
  #157
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Originally Posted by StarsFan74 View Post
Dirt-poor logic on your part though. You cannot expect people to be realistic about A and then ask them not to be realistic about B, when they are intrinsically tied.
Quote:
Lets be realistic. With out a completely lucky start. The Leafs not making the playoffs.
End of thought.

New thought.
Quote:
Now let's leave reality behind.
Not that hard.

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Old
01-20-2013, 12:06 PM
  #158
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Hardly relivant, seems very unlikely we would move our Captain unless in a package for a number 1 center, which seems doubtful. Of all the players that were on our opening night roster that seem like candidates for trade, only Liles really fits the bill, maybe Bozak. Not that Liles is not good player but because we have depth in the sytem in puck moving defensemen and he could yield a decent return at the deadline like a late first, a decent prospect or a 2nd plus. The Leafs are a center and a goalie away from being a decent team so a complete reconstruction is not really necessary. It's entirely possible the solution to these problems already exist in the organization. Burke did a better job of rebuilding than people give him credit for , no one can ever see past the Kessel deal which is still not a proven loss. Nonis is going to get the credit when the foundation Burke put in place begins to pay off.

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Old
01-20-2013, 12:07 PM
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
What about 7th d Franson ?
Franson wasn't even the 7th D-Man when he was on the NHl's best defense in Nashville.

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Old
01-20-2013, 12:14 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by CanuckCity View Post
and on that note whats the deal with gardiner. He's too good to move for luongo but he's in every trade proposal for a player not-named-luongo. Is he really that good, he's only had one good season and you guys seem kinda two-faced about him
Gardiner is great. Buthte the ultimate end of these moves is to end up with Jones. And to get good pieces like Skinner you have to give up good pieces like Gards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaffan16 View Post
Why the hell would any team do any of these trades? And CanuckCity, he is offered as the main centerpeice for a big value guy, but less not argue how Luongo has bad value, as this isn't a Luongo thread.

Why trade Gardiner when you are trying to rebuild also?
To get a #1C. Pretty simple really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by topchowda View Post
What is their roster after that?
Lupul - Skinner - Kessel
Is the only part of the line up that matters right now. There is enough D-men to fill out a top 6. The marlies would have to be raided to fill out hte bottom 9, but the players are there.

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Originally Posted by LeftCoast View Post
The Leafs will never commit to a rebuild.
That's why this is a 1 and done, balls to the wall go for everything. The rebuild version of what the BlueJays jsut did.

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Originally Posted by nzoilerfan View Post
That is crazy...

ALthough, depending on how the oilers do throughout the season I could see them liking the option of bringing in a captain kinda guy who can hammer guys, play against good opposition, and bring some offence from the backend. Plus he is a home town boy. But then, that wouldn't be as high a first rounder. And it's a deep draft so EDM may want to keep as many of their higher picks as they can for at least one more draft.
A Phaneuf - Schultz pairing Sounds good to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stjonnypopo View Post
In which world is Phaneuf worth a potential top-3 pick?

I'll answer the question: in no world.
In what world is EDM going to be a bottom 3 team this year? They should be fighting for 8th in the west, and Phaneuf would only help that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
Apparently you forgot that part.
And you are only the 5th person to quote that who failed to read the second line of the post.

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Old
01-20-2013, 12:16 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
That's a fair point but if he leaves it will be after a team has paid him money that he was happy enough with to do so. That also really only applies to one player too though.

Also, after I posted there is now a thread where Dreger said that he is hearing the the Leafs are talking with Lupul about a contract extension. Not the same as Lupul (Lupul's people is what Dreg said) contacting the Leafs but it is worth noting.

If Lupul does sign an extension with the Leafs it will make me re-think my position a little bit but I would still believe that it was a mistake for the Leafs long term success. Not that I am really concerned with that though.
https://twitter.com/TSNScottyMac/sta...71286407598080

Time to rethink !

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Old
01-20-2013, 12:20 PM
  #162
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You clearly don't even follow the Leafs in any way, shape or form so lets break this thing right down.

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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
The reason(s) that I am not providing any links/sources is that like I explained in the simplest manner possible I never said that any of the several coming UFA's were leaving as a matter of fact.

Again, the word likely was specifically used to indicate that I am making a speculative point. I then give several reasons for I think that they might actually leave.

I don't need to provide you any links or sources because I have never said anything that would require the need to provide any. I then outline why I am speculating that the Leafs look like they can lose some of their several pending free agents to the free agent market in detail.
When you use the word likely you are referring to something that has better than 50/50 odds. If you think something is likely going to happen you usually have an actual reason or proof for that sentiment.

That is like me saying when I flip a coin it is likely that it will be heads. Does that statement make sense to you? How about: I think it is likely the Kings will trade Doughty to the Leafs tomorrow?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
I haven't any "anti-Leaf bias" or "pessimism pointed" at the Leafs at all. The Leafs are not my team and like everyone else in the world I at best have a passing interest in what happens with every other team. These are bulletin boards on the internet, I read a thread and comment on the ones that interest me. It is as simple as that.
The Leafs are merely every other team than the one I support. I haven't any more dislike for them than I do for any other team in the NHL.
In the Lupul thread on the very first page you posted:

"Leafs are talking with Lupuls people about an extension is different than Lupul's people talking to the Leafs about an extension."

As if to discredit the source or the Leafs would want to sign Lupul but he wouldn't want to sign here. Hate to burst your bubbles on Lupul and the other mass exodus of top UFAs from the Leafs but he actually just resigned with us today for five more years.

Quote:
Sorry, I tried to explain my position in the simplest way possible. I will try again below for you.

I think that it is *possible* that the Leafs will see a number of their coming UFA's leave to free agency because they are at or around their primes, a time when most players look to get their biggest contracts and if they are not on a team that is poised to contend for a shot at the cup can also look to move to a team that will give them their best chance at winning one. I then said that I think that the Leafs, even with their free agents are a few key pieces away from being a legitimate contender.
Again if we are playing the "it's possible" game, anything is on the table I guess. Quick and Kopitar to the Leafs for Komisarek and Connolly is possible, but it isn't plausible unless you have some actual sources.

Quote:
I also said that *if* the Leafs are planning on trying to continue building by trying to add UFA's to fill their holes that it is what they have done in the past and that it hasn't worked yet. I then go on to say that the Leafs have some good prospects/young players that they can use to build around and that doing so is what successful teams have done more so than trying to build a winner by building largely through free agency.

No need to post sources or links for what are opinions and not statements of fact.

I hope that this post helps
We haven't added a single critical piece through free agency so how is it we will continue down this path? Our top players (Phaneuf, Kessel, Lupul, Grabo, Gardiner etc) have all been acquired through trades. The best UFA we have signed in four years is probably Clark MacArthur.

I'd probably stick to writing long baseless commentaries about teams you watch or follow at least passingly before adding any more about the future of the leafs.

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Old
01-20-2013, 12:38 PM
  #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Luck required? not at all. Every team is going to have some guys underachieve, the Leafs were very well positioned for one or two guys... not 5.

The fact is, Komisarek is a proven top shutdown defenceman in the league. He underachieved for years under Ron Wilson. He was slated for our bottom pair. He should've been able to step up for Schenn, who should've played much better than he was.

Franson would've been in a similar position with Liles. You've got a young guy with great puck skills who should've continued developing and earning more minutes. If/when Liles got hurt, he should've been able to step up into the top 4 alongside Schenn without a problem. Last year, the Leafs issues in terms of talent had nothing to do with a lack of depth, it was that their top pair wasn't particularly good as far as top pairs go. They did have 3 pairs who all should've been reasonably capable of playing top 4 minutes though... and that's without Gardiner.
I see we're not about to reach consensus anytime soon here.

* * *
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyrophorus View Post
Ummm...

Grabo>>>>>>Vermette
You realize, of course, that was in the context of whether or not we'd had a 50-60 point center recently, and not necessarily a player comparison?

We still have no particular need for Grabovski.

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Old
01-20-2013, 07:38 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by RealisticLeaf55 View Post
So let me get this straight, Bill Watters just stirring the pot against the same team that fired him? That is your source? You can't be serious right? Bill Watters is the 74385385 year old version of Steve Simmons.
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Originally Posted by Leaf Rocket View Post
did you just quote bill watters for intel when he's one of the biggest jokes in toronto media?

...wow.

i want to laugh but i can't because I am actually shocked if that's what edmonton fans are listening to and believing in.

Regardless this is a very very unrealistic trade views in every aspect and contrary to popular believe our agents like to re-sign with us not walk away. Aka Lupul has started contract extension.
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Originally Posted by birddog View Post
Imagine an EDMONTON announcer suggesting a top young player that was a member of the hated Flames is a cancer. You might want to look at the source and the agenda before you write it in your gospel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by doubledown99 View Post
Hey your welcome to keep Phaneuf. I'm just telling you I don't see Edm ever trading for him. Our radio guy who is super connected o team and has called many things Oiler related says Edm wouldn't want him. End of story. He's also been talking about Phaneufs rep since he first got dealt to Tor. In either case keep The guy. I want no part of him and I'm pretty sure out team feels the same way
Ah ok, the discredit the source tactic to defend Phaneuf? That's fine, the only problem is the interview in the link only served to confirm what I have heard about Phaneuf for years.
I am from Edmonton, Phaneuf is from Edmonton, played for the SSAC here. Hockey fans here, not just Oiler fans but Canucks, Flames, Habs, Bruins all have their opinion of Phaneuf based on what they have heard and almost to a man they are not good.
The argument about the Oilers media having an agenda against Phaneuf because he was a flame doesn't fly either.
I find it a little cringeworthy how the tires are pumped of some of the Flames players by the Oilers media. Stauffer's love fest with Bouwmeester(another Edmonton boy) is a quite sickening.
Oilers fans generally have a lot of time for local players,for example the signing of Fistric was well received, Would Oiler fans like to see Iginla, Matt Kassian, Spurgeon, Vandermeer, Mark McNeill or Johnny Boychuck as Oilers? - Hell yeah. Phaneuf - not in a million years.

To make things quite clear. I could care less what the Leaf fans think of Phaneuf. Please sign him to an even longer more ridiculous contact preferably with a NMC.
Please just stop with the Phaneuf to the Oilers proposals. We got it last year when leafs fans coveted our #1 overall and judging things by this thread it is starting again. For clarity the oilers want no part of Dion Phaneuf. I don't see what is so hard to understand about this.
In no universe where human life exists is Phaneuf worth a first rounder. There are good reasons the leafs got him for what they did.
1. Nobody else wanted him
2. The flames wanted him out and quickly.
If you think Burke just pulled off a masterstroke you are either very naive or simply deluded. Just go ask flames fans/media.
I have no problem with leafs fans burying their heads in the sand when it comes to Phaneuf, good luck, as long as I never see him in an Oilers jersey.

As you know the oilers have been through tough times, we have seen a youth revolution and there have been concerted efforts to change the culture around the hockey club. Things have started to turn around, there is no chance we put that at risk.

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Old
01-20-2013, 08:33 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by gooilgo View Post
Ah ok, the discredit the source tactic to defend Phaneuf? That's fine, the only problem is the interview in the link only served to confirm what I have heard about Phaneuf for years.
I am from Edmonton, Phaneuf is from Edmonton, played for the SSAC here. Hockey fans here, not just Oiler fans but Canucks, Flames, Habs, Bruins all have their opinion of Phaneuf based on what they have heard and almost to a man they are not good.
The argument about the Oilers media having an agenda against Phaneuf because he was a flame doesn't fly either.
I find it a little cringeworthy how the tires are pumped of some of the Flames players by the Oilers media. Stauffer's love fest with Bouwmeester(another Edmonton boy) is a quite sickening.
Oilers fans generally have a lot of time for local players,for example the signing of Fistric was well received, Would Oiler fans like to see Iginla, Matt Kassian, Spurgeon, Vandermeer, Mark McNeill or Johnny Boychuck as Oilers? - Hell yeah. Phaneuf - not in a million years.

To make things quite clear. I could care less what the Leaf fans think of Phaneuf. Please sign him to an even longer more ridiculous contact preferably with a NMC.
Please just stop with the Phaneuf to the Oilers proposals. We got it last year when leafs fans coveted our #1 overall and judging things by this thread it is starting again. For clarity the oilers want no part of Dion Phaneuf. I don't see what is so hard to understand about this.
In no universe where human life exists is Phaneuf worth a first rounder. There are good reasons the leafs got him for what they did.
1. Nobody else wanted him
2. The flames wanted him out and quickly.
If you think Burke just pulled off a masterstroke you are either very naive or simply deluded. Just go ask flames fans/media.
I have no problem with leafs fans burying their heads in the sand when it comes to Phaneuf, good luck, as long as I never see him in an Oilers jersey.

As you know the oilers have been through tough times, we have seen a youth revolution and there have been concerted efforts to change the culture around the hockey club. Things have started to turn around, there is no chance we put that at risk.
I hardly ever hear leafs making proposal for Phaneuf to EDM so don't judge an entire fan bases on one bad apple. If Phaneuf was someone elses cancer then fine, he has done nothing but good things with the leafs and has had a steady increase in stats/playing ability since when he first arrived here. I don't know where Phaneuf touched you but my god man, let it be. Just keep in mind Dany Heatley was a locker room cancer in Ottawa and when they were shopping him out, he was the one who said "NO!" to the oilers. What does that say about them?

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01-20-2013, 09:26 PM
  #166
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I'm a leafs fan, and even I think this is beyond crazy, can't be drastic, you need to think logic. jeez this post was a headache, I'm sorry.

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01-20-2013, 09:34 PM
  #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RealisticLeaf55 View Post
I hardly ever hear leafs making proposal for Phaneuf to EDM so don't judge an entire fan bases on one bad apple. If Phaneuf was someone elses cancer then fine, he has done nothing but good things with the leafs and has had a steady increase in stats/playing ability since when he first arrived here. I don't know where Phaneuf touched you but my god man, let it be. Just keep in mind Dany Heatley was a locker room cancer in Ottawa and when they were shopping him out, he was the one who said "NO!" to the oilers. What does that say about them?
I don't see the relevance of Heatley to not wanting Phaneuf. If anything it shows the Oilers have hopefully learnt from their mistakes.

Since you mentioned DH, the Oilers lucked out pure and simple in not getting him. That situation was a bit of a watershed for this organisation and I think valuable lessons were learnt. They were dark days.

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