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Brooks Orpik - trade him sooner than later?

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Old
01-20-2013, 07:27 AM
  #26
#66
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I like Orpik but he had a rough game yesterday. Most defensive defensemen can't skate like him and without him that Pens defense becomes powder puff soft. I guess it would depend on the trade but I wouldn't mind seeing him stick around a few more years.

I actually think the system plays a big part in making the defense look bad. The Pens seem to like an overly aggressive D while playing a zone defense and get burned for it more often than I would like to see.

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01-20-2013, 07:41 AM
  #27
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I think what Orpik has been missing over the last 2 years is a partner he's felt truly comfortable with. I don't think he and Letang have ever looked good, and this is dating back to even when Sarge was here. Not sure how Orpik or Martin will look. You need more than 5 days of camp, and 1 game to figure out a defensive partner. 20 games in or so, we should have a pretty good idea what those two are going to look like together. I think, in theory, the pair should work really well.

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01-20-2013, 08:18 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by WagonPensFansHater View Post
Actually if you watch the goal against, you'll see kunitz being out of position chasing the puck, and crosby half a$$ing it up ice on his backchecking on his shift. Keith Jones said as much on the intermission. Can't rush to judgments after one game, orpik looked rusty to me, as did a number of players did, he didn't play during the lockout, it'll take afew weeks for the d to get cohesive, and who is trading FOR orpik, right now????.... No one, let's trade our only physicality from our soft defense already....get idea!!!! Ugh
Watch that play closely again. The Flyers do this every dang shift and it drives me crazy. They get an extra hit or interference on the lowest man down on the ice to trap him behind the play. It's blatant interference and it happened all the time in last years playoffs.

Also, just like last years playoffs, the Pens are dominating the Flyers (were outshooting them 11-3 at one point) in the first period and yet only draw one penalty. Flyers meanwhile are hanging on for dear life and somehow manage to draw 3 penalties.

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01-20-2013, 08:25 AM
  #29
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What's the talk with having to trade for a top 4 dman. If Martin truly turns it around this year, which is a big if, and Despres develops like we think he will then the top 4 is pretty well set with LeTang Despres Martin and Niskanen, then Orpik goes away or to the 3rd pairing where he has belonged for a long time. Orpik Engelland as a pairing.

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01-20-2013, 08:47 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
He did cover for him, he just blew his coverage.

As a fwd you always backcheck to the middle when things breakdown. Hartnell was manned up and Kunitz floated to him and left CG wide open going to the post. I have no idea what he was thinking.

That's hockey 101 and Kunitz would be the first one to admit it.
to make it worse, he took that one extra step to Hartnell which made Martin take an extra step back to try to fix things, so Hartnell had even more space than he would have because of it
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Originally Posted by dr robbie View Post
Martin plays good for one game - maybe we should keep him and his 1.75 extra million

Orpik plays so/so for one game - maybe we should trade him

I mean, if this was one game ago (yes, last year), this discussion would be completely different. Give him a minute to get into his groove and we could evaluate then.

Personally, I like Orpiks. He's been our solid rock for many a year now. I would love for him to retire out with the Pens, even if that means moving him down on the d list.
Orpik was arguably just as bad as Martin last year. It didn't look as embarrassing because he was still making hits on occasion and just didn't look scared like Martin did, but he was just as ineffective at stopping the other team from scoring.

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01-20-2013, 08:56 AM
  #31
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Brooks has been declining for several years now. From an asset management perspective the return he will generate gets smaller everyday. Martin was only bad for 40 games and (knock on wood) looks like he's back up to his normal standard.

If Brooks goes this year it will mean a step down for the top 4, but I'm not convinced it will be as steep as some seem to think. Orpik + a depth forwad could probably still net us another Kunitz type.

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01-20-2013, 09:33 AM
  #32
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If he is traded I'm hoping Shero is done with the tunnel vision trades and doesn't only see the Sabres as a partner.


Last edited by #66: 01-20-2013 at 09:39 AM.
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01-20-2013, 10:13 AM
  #33
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I doubt he gets traded ... unless the team finds itself out of playoff contention at the trade deadline. Orpik just opts to signs one last deal to play elsewhere at the end of this contract.

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01-20-2013, 10:25 AM
  #34
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Yeah, I just don't see him being traded. Trading him is something to talk about but I also think it's completely unrealistic.

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01-20-2013, 10:50 AM
  #35
Ugene Malkin
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Orpik is not only the most physical force on the back end, He's the defense captain/leader of it.

Who takes that over, Letang/Martin?

Yeah, I don't like that.

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01-20-2013, 10:52 AM
  #36
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What the hell is going on here?

First we have people bashing Shero for his trades as he has tunnel vision? This is the guy that got us Niskanen AND Neal for Gogo alone. What the hell is happening?

Second - we can't trade Orpik. I can't even believe we discuss it. We need gritty defenders. He's not in perfect form and sucked late last year, but that doesn't mean we can just move him. We still need his physicality and shot blocking ability. Unless you are telling me Mark Stuart, Dennis Seidenberg, or a guy like Matt Greene are on there way to Pittsburgh...then we simply cannot lose Brooks.

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Old
01-20-2013, 11:05 AM
  #37
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I think the long off-season probably means Orpik is the healthiest he has been in quite some time. Give him a few weeks to get back in the groove. Let's revisit this at the end of February.

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Old
01-20-2013, 11:42 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
It's this kinda talk that gets us ousted in the first round.
******* Amen . . .

The same talk that says Sid's fine playing with Kunitz and Dupuis.

The same talk that says start Lovejoy yesterday over Despres (isn't it time we find out now, before March and April, whether Despres is a true playoff option, because we sure as **** know Lovejoy isn't).

The same talk that says, depending upon the year, it doesn't matter who Sid's and Geno's wingers are, because we score enough goals.

As I said, a big Amen to you for saying that.

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01-20-2013, 12:11 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LetangBrassard23 View Post
IMO, it's a weird situation with Orpik. We trade him now and don't have anyone to fill in, also taking away from our already weak Top 4. We hold onto him, assuming his play/value continues to decline year in and year out, no one will want to trade for him. I think it's best to hold onto him and as time goes, lighten his load and move him down in the lineup when some of our young guys/prospects(Bortuzzo, Dumoulin, Harrington, Maatta) can step up.

No way we hang on to him for more than this year. Unless something goes completely awry, Harrington & Dumoulin should both be ready. He will be a UFA after next season, so there's no point to lose him for nothing when we could get a decent return for him. I would like to see him moved at the draft, because this draft, scouts say, is 60+ quality players deep -- meaning we could get a 1st round, impact type player in the 2nd round. I think we could get a 2nd and a B-level prospect, or something like a 2nd + 4th for Orpik this summer, or he could be packaged for an existing winger. His value declines the longer we hold on to him after the deadline/end of the playoffs this year.



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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
I am not sure of your point then.

Everyone agrees that we have the best defensive prospects in the game and within a year or two they will step up as cheap replacements for who we have now. Orpik's days are obviously among the numbered. But you were talking right now in the thread. And that is crazy talk for a cup contender. Do you forget Goligoski's first couple years? Even Letang's? They were brutal. You want to toss a cup away, then bring a rookie into the top four. Even a good one.

My point is the duality of both asset management, as well as the opportunity to give Bortuzzo the shot he deserves. Bortuzzo ain't getting in the line-up unless Despres goes out. And if we want to see what we have in each of these players, and if Despes & Bortuzzo can sink or swim, we have to start getting them acclimated to the NHL. We can't have 3 or 4 rookies coming into our team next year; we need guys who have more experience. If Despres and Bortuzzo play well and could play the whole season, then we could bring in a guy like Harrington and/or Dumoulin this year, and we wouldn't have 4 rookies on defense.


Quote:
Originally Posted by #66 View Post
I like Orpik but he had a rough game yesterday. Most defensive defensemen can't skate like him and without him that Pens defense becomes powder puff soft. I guess it would depend on the trade but I wouldn't mind seeing him stick around a few more years.

I actually think the system plays a big part in making the defense look bad. The Pens seem to like an overly aggressive D while playing a zone defense and get burned for it more often than I would like to see.
It's not just yesterday, he's been bad (or at least inconsistent) at defensive reads for a while now -- since the cup and even before the cup. It's like Brooks and Gonch played a month or two where they made much fewer mistakes, and allowed us to win. The word with Brooks when he was a prospect or when he just entered the NHL was: would he go out of position to make big hits? Well, he did that yesterday, and it cost us a goal. He had better fix that.


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Originally Posted by vyktor View Post
What's the talk with having to trade for a top 4 dman. If Martin truly turns it around this year, which is a big if, and Despres develops like we think he will then the top 4 is pretty well set with LeTang Despres Martin and Niskanen, then Orpik goes away or to the 3rd pairing where he has belonged for a long time. Orpik Engelland as a pairing.

If Orpik actually makes it to the 3rd pairing, you may as well trade him now to maximize the asset, because I think Bortuzzo is more than capable of being a 3rd pair Dman right now, and we wouldn't lose any size (actually we'd gain) by swapping Bort for Brooks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mrzeigler View Post
I doubt he gets traded ... unless the team finds itself out of playoff contention at the trade deadline. Orpik just opts to signs one last deal to play elsewhere at the end of this contract.

Disagree. Again, as I stated above: I bet Orpik isn't with the team anymore next season, unless Dumoulin, Despres and Bortuzzo **** the bed, because if Dumo isn't ready now, he will be by September. We're going to have to get these kids ice-time and get them acclimated. You can argue about this year, but I think by next year Dumoulin >> Orpik. So we'll lose the asset for nothing if we don't trade him, and the kids need their chance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
******* Amen . . .
As I said, a big Amen to you for saying that.

OK, clearly Kirk gets it, and it's pretty clear what side of the fence he's on.

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01-20-2013, 12:15 PM
  #40
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We have no one to replace him. Think that ends the argument right there. Doumilin is still nothing more than a minor league player. A far cry of what Orpik does for us.

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01-20-2013, 12:16 PM
  #41
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Brooks retires a Pen.

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01-20-2013, 12:20 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
What the hell is going on here?

First we have people bashing Shero for his trades as he has tunnel vision? This is the guy that got us Niskanen AND Neal for Gogo alone. What the hell is happening?

Second - we can't trade Orpik. I can't even believe we discuss it. We need gritty defenders. He's not in perfect form and sucked late last year, but that doesn't mean we can just move him. We still need his physicality and shot blocking ability. Unless you are telling me Mark Stuart, Dennis Seidenberg, or a guy like Matt Greene are on there way to Pittsburgh...then we simply cannot lose Brooks.
Agreed on all points. I'd also like to point out that his "tunnel vision" got a fair return for Staal.

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01-20-2013, 12:20 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by jmelm View Post
No way we hang on to him for more than this year. Unless something goes completely awry, Harrington & Dumoulin should both be ready. He will be a UFA after next season, so there's no point to lose him for nothing when we could get a decent return for him. I would like to see him moved at the draft, because this draft, scouts say, is 60+ quality players deep -- meaning we could get a 1st round, impact type player in the 2nd round. I think we could get a 2nd and a B-level prospect, or something like a 2nd + 4th for Orpik this summer, or he could be packaged for an existing winger. His value declines the longer we hold on to him after the deadline/end of the playoffs this year.






My point is the duality of both asset management, as well as the opportunity to give Bortuzzo the shot he deserves. Bortuzzo ain't getting in the line-up unless Despres goes out. And if we want to see what we have in each of these players, and if Despes & Bortuzzo can sink or swim, we have to start getting them acclimated to the NHL. We can't have 3 or 4 rookies coming into our team next year; we need guys who have more experience. If Despres and Bortuzzo play well and could play the whole season, then we could bring in a guy like Harrington and/or Dumoulin this year, and we wouldn't have 4 rookies on defense.




It's not just yesterday, he's been bad (or at least inconsistent) at defensive reads for a while now -- since the cup and even before the cup. It's like Brooks and Gonch played a month or two where they made much fewer mistakes, and allowed us to win. The word with Brooks when he was a prospect or when he just entered the NHL was: would he go out of position to make big hits? Well, he did that yesterday, and it cost us a goal. He had better fix that.





If Orpik actually makes it to the 3rd pairing, you may as well trade him now to maximize the asset, because I think Bortuzzo is more than capable of being a 3rd pair Dman right now, and we wouldn't lose any size (actually we'd gain) by swapping Bort for Brooks.





Disagree. Again, as I stated above: I bet Orpik isn't with the team anymore next season, unless Dumoulin, Despres and Bortuzzo **** the bed, because if Dumo isn't ready now, he will be by September. We're going to have to get these kids ice-time and get them acclimated. You can argue about this year, but I think by next year Dumoulin >> Orpik. So we'll lose the asset for nothing if we don't trade him, and the kids need their chance.




OK, clearly Kirk gets it, and it's pretty clear what side of the fence he's on.
Apparently the right one, since it seems to be yours . . .

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01-20-2013, 12:21 PM
  #44
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Brooks retires a Pen.

ZERO chance. Brooks signs big dollars with a team who has a weak defense, and the team with the deepest prospect pool in the league (many of whom are NHL ready or close), elect to give their young players an opportunity, and use Brook's salary savings on forwards for their star centres.


You think it's worth paying Brooks the $4 million he'll be offered by some other team on a long-term deal??


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Apparently the right one, since it seems to be yours . . .

Why thank you, kind Sir. I'll take that

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01-20-2013, 12:23 PM
  #45
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01-20-2013, 12:31 PM
  #46
Ugene Malkin
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I don't have a problem giving him a 3/4 year deal at his same or near cap hit.

He's only 32 and it's not like he'll hammer the team with the 35+ rule here. If the team runs 8 D-man from now on it's even easier to keep'em.

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01-20-2013, 12:36 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
I don't have a problem giving him a 3/4 year deal at his same or near cap hit.

He's only 32 and it's not like he'll hammer the team with the 35+ rule here. If the team runs 8 D-man from now on it's even easier to keep'em.
I think it depends upon how he plays over the course of the year, whether there's a decline, and if guys like Dumoulin, Harrington, or another acquisition can do what he does physically.

I don't see Orpik being traded anytime soon. But, if the question is whether he's untouchable forever, then I don't think so.

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01-20-2013, 12:44 PM
  #48
jmelm
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Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
I don't have a problem giving him a 3/4 year deal at his same or near cap hit.

He's only 32 and it's not like he'll hammer the team with the 35+ rule here. If the team runs 8 D-man from now on it's even easier to keep'em.

Priority #1: Re-sign Letang and Malkin to what will be VERY expensive contracts, and with a shrinking salary cap.


Priority #2: Re-sign or extend Dupuis, Cooke, Kennedy and Kunitz, and with a shrinking salary cap.


Priority #3: Sign a UFA or trade for a legit top-line winger to play with Crosby, and with a shrinking salary cap.


Priority #4: Sign a UFA or trade for a legit top-pairing Dman partner for Letang, if there is one available, and with a shrinking salary cap.


Priority #5: Get our NHL-ready young defenders spots in our line-up so they can progress and get acclimated to the NHL, if deserving, and as expected for at least one or two of them by next season.


So a BIG NO THANK YOU and see ya later to Brooks Orpik at $4million/season.

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01-20-2013, 12:46 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
I think it depends upon how he plays over the course of the year, whether there's a decline, and if guys like Dumoulin, Harrington, or another acquisition can do what he does physically.

I don't see Orpik being traded anytime soon. But, if the question is whether he's untouchable forever, then I don't think so.
Those entry level contracts are what will keep him here having him take the leadership role and help the kids out playing in a more reduced role that should suite him in the coming years.

Year 3/4 could be like this
Despres, Letang
Dumoulin/Maata, Morrow
Orpik, Harrington
Bortuzzo/Pouliot

Now what's the problem? I don't see any. We'll lose one of these young guys in some sort of a trade, maybe two.

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01-20-2013, 12:50 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Dangles78 View Post
Hahahaha how?

Trading Orpik for futures significantly makes this team worse. There is no reason for the Pens to trade Orpik. Even if his trade value continues to decline season to season, he has greater value to the Pens. Their top-4 is nothing special and if you take him away then you're only setting the Pens back.

I'm not sure how many ******* times I have to say this, but the time is now and we won't get there by trading Orpik or Martin. For **** sake our problem is defense. Bolster the top-4, continue the special team success, you'll see this team go far.

Sure Orpik has been declining since the Cup run, but seriously (and I mean seriously) present a top-4 that will go deep in the playoffs if we trade Orpik. Since most proposed trades see Orpik going for a top-6 winger or less talented D-men.

Don't worry, I'll wait....
Ah yes, ripping off Katt Williams in an hfboards post.

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