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01-20-2013, 01:03 PM
  #1
Srsly
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+/- Kessel

Kessel has traditionally been a - minus player but our team has never been that great defensively so it's hard to judge him.
I have a bit of a question regarding the stat in general. If Kessel has two assists than how is he +0 for the year on nhl.com when Montreal only scored once last night? I always thought +/- was the comparison of goals for vs against. Could someone enlighten me? Shouldn't he be +1? How does the stat work?
http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id...vid=nhl-search

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01-20-2013, 01:05 PM
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Sokil
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points on the power play don't count towards +/-, and all goals for both teams last night were on the PP

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01-20-2013, 01:06 PM
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Srsly
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Thanks, in retrospect it sort of makes me facepalm a little. I guess I've forgotten a lot in the last year.

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01-20-2013, 01:12 PM
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CanadasTeam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Srsly View Post
Kessel has traditionally been a - minus player but our team has never been that great defensively so it's hard to judge him.
I have a bit of a question regarding the stat in general. If Kessel has two assists than how is he +0 for the year on nhl.com when Montreal only scored once last night? I always thought +/- was the comparison of goals for vs against. Could someone enlighten me? Shouldn't he be +1? How does the stat work?
http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id...vid=nhl-search
BTW, Kessel has never been a minus player in his whole career... at least not until he joined the Leafs.

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01-20-2013, 01:20 PM
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Shows how dumb the stat can be at times. You could 5 power play points in a 5-1 win and end out -1

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01-20-2013, 01:21 PM
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Sokil
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Originally Posted by CanadasTeam View Post
BTW, Kessel has never been a minus player in his whole career... at least not until he joined the Leafs.

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01-20-2013, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by conway902 View Post
Shows how dumb the stat can be at times. You could 5 power play points in a 5-1 win and end out -1
don't se how it's dumb in that regard, it's an even strength stat. Wouldn't make sense to say you're +4 in that game (indicating defensive reliability) when all of your points came when you were outnumbering the opposition

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01-20-2013, 01:27 PM
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sorry my bad, misquoted as it was Tyler Bozak who had never been a minus player per this article:

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2011/...n-over-flames/

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01-20-2013, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
don't se how it's dumb in that regard, it's an even strength stat. Wouldn't make sense to say you're +4 in that game (indicating defensive reliability) when all of your points came when you were outnumbering the opposition
Maybe not, but it's a dumb stat in general.

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01-20-2013, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Srsly View Post
Thanks, in retrospect it sort of makes me facepalm a little. I guess I've forgotten a lot in the last year.
But if its shorthanded it does count for obvious reasons

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01-20-2013, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
don't se how it's dumb in that regard, it's an even strength stat. Wouldn't make sense to say you're +4 in that game (indicating defensive reliability) when all of your points came when you were outnumbering the opposition
And looking at it the other way, why would you get a minus when you are outnumbered?

It makes sence

I remember one time we won big (8-3 or something) and Lebda (I think it was) was minus 3.

Anyone remember that and can give proper details?

EDIT: looked it up. 9-3 win over Winnipeg, 0 points -3 stat line

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01-20-2013, 01:31 PM
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Kessel can do better in one on one battles. On the half wall , the corners or behind the net, he could really improve this area of his game. Last night he rarely won any of those battle area situations. It jumped out at me. Im sure this must bother the coach. His blazing speed and shot offset these areas. He might be the weakest Leaf player in these battle areas, yet the best and most dangerous when the puck gets on his stick

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01-20-2013, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mapes View Post
And looking at it the other way, why would you get a minus when you are outnumbered?

It makes sence
Plus you put out your better defensive players on the PK, so it's like having your stats punished for being good defensively

Personally, I wish there was a split for goalies for PK and even strength. They get it the worst. Team takes a bunch of 5-on-3s and all of a sudden they look like bums.

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01-20-2013, 02:01 PM
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Cyris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mapes View Post
And looking at it the other way, why would you get a minus when you are outnumbered?

It makes sence

I remember one time we won big (8-3 or something) and Lebda (I think it was) was minus 3.

Anyone remember that and can give proper details?

EDIT: looked it up. 9-3 win over Winnipeg, 0 points -3 stat line
It was Atlanta not Winnipeg and in fairness the leafs scored 5 or 6 of those goals on the powerplay.

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01-20-2013, 02:18 PM
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mapes
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Originally Posted by Cyris View Post
It was Atlanta not Winnipeg and in fairness the leafs scored 5 or 6 of those goals on the powerplay.
It said Winnipeg, forgot that was Thrashers last year

Either way, still an awesome stat line.

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Old
01-20-2013, 08:13 PM
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Look at this way Kessel was leading forwards in the NHL last year for being on the ice for goals against, that should tell you something about his defensive abilities.

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01-20-2013, 08:26 PM
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i believe if you took away the games they played against boston, he would be a plus player. those 6 games hurt everyone on the leafs.

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Old
01-20-2013, 08:48 PM
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+/- is a team stat. Kessel's last year in Boston he was +23.

Zdeno Chara went from the NHl's worst +/-, to the best in one season. The reason? He left bottom feeder the Islanders and joined the contending Sens.

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01-20-2013, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
+/- is a team stat.
If it's a team stat then so are assists. It's a situational stat.

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01-20-2013, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
If it's a team stat then so are assists. It's a situational stat.
A good defensive player infront of a bad goalie or in a bad defensive system will have a bad +/- which is why its considered a team stat.

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01-20-2013, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by The Podium View Post
A good defensive player infront of a bad goalie or in a bad defensive system will have a bad +/- which is why its considered a team stat.
That's just your opinion. If it was a team stat, it wouldn't exist on a player's stat-line. It's a situational stat, like RBIs in baseball.

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01-20-2013, 11:04 PM
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The Podium
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Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
That's just your opinion. If it was a team stat, it wouldn't exist on a player's stat-line. It's a situational stat, like RBIs in baseball.
WTF are you talking about

a good defensive player on a team thats -33 is going to have a tough time having a better +/- on a team thats +33.... a defensive D would be the best example. If a defensive D is on the ice hes likely not producing offence. If the forwards are not producing offence than there is a very high chance that more goals will be scored against than for regardless of how good you are defensively.

Tomas Plekanec one of the better defensive forwards in the league was -15 on a terrible Montreal then you have someone like David Perron, not known for his D play and was +19 on a strong St. Louis

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01-20-2013, 11:05 PM
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Duke Silver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
That's just your opinion. If it was a team stat, it wouldn't exist on a player's stat-line. It's a situational stat, like RBIs in baseball.
If +/- was a useful stat, Jeff Schultz would have won a Norris trophy.

It's an atrociously misleading stat. You could step on the ice for five seconds without touching the puck, be scored on, and be given a -1. Conversely, you could step on the ice during a breakaway goal and be given a +1. In neither case did you have any bearing on the goal scored.

There are far more useful statistical measures to determine a player's defensive ability.

This argument that +/- is in some way a useful individual stat has been shot down so many times.

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01-20-2013, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
That's just your opinion. If it was a team stat, it wouldn't exist on a player's stat-line. It's a situational stat, like RBIs in baseball.
I find it to be a worthwhile stat when you compare guys on the same team.

For example, Kessel was a -10 while Clarke Macarthur was a +2 on the same team, and with the first line scoring much more than the second.

Indicates that the first line was terrible defensively.

Kessel easily puts in the least amount of effort defensively between him Lupul and Bozie.

So we can arrive at the conclusion that Phil Kessel is one of the worst defensive top-six players in the league.

Pretty open and shut.

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Old
01-20-2013, 11:17 PM
  #25
leafsfuture
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Which is exactly why Kessel plays his best with Tyler Bozak down the middle

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