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All Encompassing Tanking/Rebuilding/Selling at Deadline Thread 2.0

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Old
01-20-2013, 02:48 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
You won't find any GM stupid enough to trade for Gio, given that he's old and will have to get paid 5mil next season.
Same with Cole, no GM wants to trade for a the last years of an aging vet. Kabs. lol we'll be lucky if anyone wants him for free.




Bouillon.
your right I was just hoping it was a option but it looks like we aren't going to get anymore picks for nextyears draft gainey/ gauthier really screwed our team with bad contracts/trades

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01-20-2013, 03:04 PM
  #127
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Here's what I think we *could* get at the deadline:

Tier 1:
Plekanec: A 1st and 2nd and a young player with supportive cast upside, or an advanced prospect.
Markov: Same as Plekanec.
Cole: A 1st.

Tier 2:
Bourque: A 2nd if we're lucky.
Kaberle: A 2nd and a 3rd, like Zidlicky got.
Gionta: A 2nd and a 3rd.

Tier 3:
Bouillon: A 3rd rounder
Nokelainen: A 4th rounder
Budaj: A 4th rounder

Are we going to get *all of that*? No. These are best case scenarios for each individual player, but they're anti-correlated as a whole. There's only so much ice time and power play time to go around in Montreal, so if some of them have maximized trade value, others will have minimized trade value. Finally, there is only so much demand in the trade market. Further, some of these guys will be injured, that's inevitable.

A very satisfactory result would be to sell one player from each tier at the deadline. That would mean maybe 1 or 2 roster spots for rookies next year, and thus 2 or 1 UFA signings.

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Old
01-20-2013, 03:08 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Any top-60 pick is quality with Trevor Timmins.

Subban, Latendresse, and Lapierre were all 2nd round picks.


More recently, Kristo and Collberg have been 2nd round picks, and the experts on this site are enthusiastic about their chances of success.
So were Carle, Maxwell, Fischer, Chipchura, Urquhart... all top 60 picks...

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01-20-2013, 03:11 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
So were Carle, Maxwell, Fischer, Chipchura, Urquhart... all top 60 picks...
Right, he doesn't bat 1.000, he bats .400 or so in the first two rounds, he is the best in the NHL at what he does, very satisfactory imo.

Since we have 3 picks in the 2nd round, we'll probably have 1 or 2 good NHL players.

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01-20-2013, 03:12 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
So were Carle, Maxwell, Fischer, Chipchura, Urquhart... all top 60 picks...
Jesus, you win some you lose some. If you're going to include Fischer and Chipchura, might as well include Price, Pacioretty, McDonagh

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Old
01-20-2013, 03:16 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Right, he doesn't bat 1.000, he bats .400 or so in the first two rounds, he is the best in the NHL at what he does, very satisfactory imo.

Since we have 3 picks in the 2nd round, we'll probably have 1 or 2 good NHL players.
So, what you're saying is, drafting isnt the problem...

about time.

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01-20-2013, 03:18 PM
  #132
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Trade Deadline Day

With the deadline around the corner, and our team with little to no chance of making it, who do we trade? and what could we potentially get?

Gionta for a prospect and 2nd rounder?

kaberle for a 2nd rounder?

bouillon for a 3rd rounder?

bourque for a 3rd rounder?

cole for ??

moen for a 2nd rounder?

armstrong for a 5th?



If we're not going to make, with the amount of free agents, and young guys coming up in our system (tinordi, both gally's, leblanc, kristo, etc.) I hope they clean house and move towards some real change.

say it with me: yes we can! and yes we will!!

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01-20-2013, 03:20 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Nedved View Post
With the deadline around the corner, and our team with little to no chance of making it, who do we trade? and what could we potentially get?

Gionta for a prospect and 2nd rounder?

kaberle for a 2nd rounder?

bouillon for a 3rd rounder?

bourque for a 3rd rounder?

cole for ??

moen for a 2nd rounder?

armstrong for a 5th?



If we're not going to make, with the amount of free agents, and young guys coming up in our system (tinordi, both gally's, leblanc, kristo, etc.) I hope they clean house and move towards some real change.

say it with me: yes we can! and yes we will!!
April 3rd

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Old
01-20-2013, 03:21 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Here's what I think we *could* get at the deadline:

Tier 1:
Plekanec: A 1st and 2nd and a young player with supportive cast upside, or an advanced prospect.
Markov: Same as Plekanec.
Cole: A 1st.

Tier 2:
Bourque: A 2nd if we're lucky.
Kaberle: A 2nd and a 3rd, like Zidlicky got.
Gionta: A 2nd and a 3rd.

Tier 3:
Bouillon: A 3rd rounder
Nokelainen: A 4th rounder
Budaj: A 4th rounder

Are we going to get *all of that*? No. These are best case scenarios for each individual player, but they're anti-correlated as a whole. There's only so much ice time and power play time to go around in Montreal, so if some of them have maximized trade value, others will have minimized trade value. Finally, there is only so much demand in the trade market. Further, some of these guys will be injured, that's inevitable.

A very satisfactory result would be to sell one player from each tier at the deadline. That would mean maybe 1 or 2 roster spots for rookies next year, and thus 2 or 1 UFA signings.
Where are the buyers for your used wares? And as for your UFAs, isn't Cole hinting at packing it in? Montréal has regressed as a desirable haven for UFAs. Of the three Bergevin signed, only one is worth keeping. Your Tier 3 would bring zippo, not even a 4th rounder. Do you really think Kaberle would fetch a second AND a third or would the Habs have to throw in a third to get a second?

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Old
01-20-2013, 03:23 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Here's what I think we *could* get at the deadline:

Tier 1:
Plekanec: A 1st and 2nd and a young player with supportive cast upside, or an advanced prospect.
Markov: Same as Plekanec.
Cole: A 1st.

Tier 2:
Bourque: A 2nd if we're lucky.
Kaberle: A 2nd and a 3rd, like Zidlicky got.
Gionta: A 2nd and a 3rd.

Tier 3:
Bouillon: A 3rd rounder
Nokelainen: A 4th rounder
Budaj: A 4th rounder

Are we going to get *all of that*? No. These are best case scenarios for each individual player, but they're anti-correlated as a whole. There's only so much ice time and power play time to go around in Montreal, so if some of them have maximized trade value, others will have minimized trade value. Finally, there is only so much demand in the trade market. Further, some of these guys will be injured, that's inevitable.

A very satisfactory result would be to sell one player from each tier at the deadline. That would mean maybe 1 or 2 roster spots for rookies next year, and thus 2 or 1 UFA signings.
I think you've overvalued some here , but it would be a mistake to trade Plek for a pick. If you trade Plek it should be part of a hockey deal that gets you a good forward in return. Sometimes you trade for picks or add them to deals to balance but you have to convert Plekanec into a solid player for the roster.

I've said it elsewhere the availabilily of TP hinges on Eller growing into a 2nd line centre.

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Old
01-20-2013, 03:29 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
I think you've overvalued some here , but it would be a mistake to trade Plek for a pick. If you trade Plek it should be part of a hockey deal that gets you a good forward in return. Sometimes you trade for picks or add them to deals to balance but you have to convert Plekanec into a solid player for the roster.

I've said it elsewhere the availabilily of TP hinges on Eller growing into a 2nd line centre.
Unfortunately, Eller can't grow into a 2nd line center until he's made the 2nd line center.

He's not going to score 50 points with no power play time, 12 minutes a game of ES time and Bourque and Moen as his linemates.

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01-20-2013, 03:32 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Unfortunately, Eller can't grow into a 2nd line center until he's made the 2nd line center.

He's not going to score 50 points with no power play time, 12 minutes a game of ES time and Bourque and Moen as his linemates.
Nope, he wont... but what you're suggesting is to trade the Cole, Gionta and co of this team, so he'll have worst than them as his linemates.

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01-20-2013, 03:32 PM
  #138
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Are you serious?

That's like me saying I can't plan buildings, they just happen. What the **** is that?

I will assume there was a language issue in your post, which is fine.
You can't plan 1-2 years ahead because you don't know who will be available. If a plan consists of going after Malkin then it's worthless because there's no way of knowing if he's available. Maybe he hits Free Agency but maybe not. The same thing goes for trades you might have a 1-2 weeks notice that a player is available. You get presented opportunities if you make the most of them you'll improve your club, but you can't plan which opportunities you will get

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Old
01-20-2013, 03:33 PM
  #139
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So, what you're saying is, drafting isnt the problem...

about time.
Work on your reading skills.

Nobody has suggested that drafting is the problem.

It's quite simple: our drafting is excellent, ergo we should stockpile as many picks as possible.

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01-20-2013, 03:35 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Nope, he wont... but what you're suggesting is to trade the Cole, Gionta and co of this team, so he'll have worst than them as his linemates.
Hypothetically, if we trade Plekanec, Bourque, and Bouillon at the deadline, as per my plan above one player from each tier, then Eller becomes the 2nd line center with Gionta and Armstrong (for example) as his linemates.

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01-20-2013, 03:36 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Where are the buyers for your used wares? And as for your UFAs, isn't Cole hinting at packing it in? Montréal has regressed as a desirable haven for UFAs. Of the three Bergevin signed, only one is worth keeping. Your Tier 3 would bring zippo, not even a 4th rounder. Do you really think Kaberle would fetch a second AND a third or would the Habs have to throw in a third to get a second?
I take it as a given that there are not enough buyers for all our vets, I've stated this 20 times or so.

As for Kaberle, he had 22 points in 43 games last year, he's a good PP quarterback, I think he would fetch comparably to what Zidlicky fetched.

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01-20-2013, 03:37 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
2014-2015
- All six of our veteran contracts (Plekanec, Markov, Gionta, Bourque, Cole, Kaberle) have now expired or been traded away hopefully, clearing 28 million in cap space. Hopefully we've rocked the UFA market by now.
- Galchenyuk and Eller are now our 1st and 2nd line centers. Any 2 of Tinordi, Beaulieu, Ellis, Diaz, should be among our bottom-4 dmen.
- Our top-6 pick from the 2013 draft should be contributing in a secondary capacity.
- Subban, Pacioretty, Price, and Emelin are in their prime.
- Out of Collberg, Kristo, our additional picks from 2013, Bozon, Hudon, (that's 7 guys) we should hopefully have two contributing in a secondary capacity.
- This team is not a favorite to win the cup, but it's a dark horse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsl View Post
That is not the plan. Do not put your words in other's mouths here, it really pisses guys off. If you like to argue this way, go to China.
How am I putting words in his mouth

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01-20-2013, 03:38 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
You can't plan 1-2 years ahead because you don't know who will be available. If a plan consists of going after Malkin then it's worthless because there's no way of knowing if he's available. Maybe he hits Free Agency but maybe not. The same thing goes for trades you might have a 1-2 weeks notice that a player is available. You get presented opportunities if you make the most of them you'll improve your club, but you can't plan which opportunities you will get
Another contrived non-sequitur.

Nobody is saying we need to go after Malkin. I said we need to be in a position to go after players like Malkin.

Can you tell the difference between the two statements?

I hope so.

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01-20-2013, 03:38 PM
  #144
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Jesus, you win some you lose some. If you're going to include Fischer and Chipchura, might as well include Price, Pacioretty, McDonagh
The point being that every 1st and 2nd rounder doesn't magically turn into a great player. The Habs probably draft better than most but it still doesn't mean every pick is going to be a success. Even good picks like Beaulieu, Collberg and Kristo might be nothing more than second rate role players or busts. Draft picks are very overrated here.

It makes sense to trade a guy for whatever picks you can get at the deadline when he clearly has no future with the team, like Gill, but not your most important players in their primes unless you are getting an something immediately back in return. The Habs aren't in the same situation as Philly where they had an emerging superstar in Giroux and Richards/Carter were only getting in the way, and even then that trade paid off far more for the Kings than it did for the Flyers.

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01-20-2013, 03:38 PM
  #145
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I really want to know how we're supposed to improve the team if we don't try and get draft picks and prospects. And if no one wants to trade any of our veterans. Any solutions?

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01-20-2013, 03:40 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
How am I putting words in his mouth
You're not, you're just confused as to what those words mean.

Gionta, Markov, Kaberle, will all be UFAs by then. Contracts expire. They'll probably be gone.

Bourque will be traded or bought out by summer 2013.

Plekanec and Cole will be in serious decline and very close to UFA status by that point.

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01-20-2013, 03:42 PM
  #147
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Actually yes. Esp with the core we already have. If you add Mackinnon to Galchenyuk, Subban, Price + everything else, I think we'd be contenders in a few years. In fact, I don't see how we wouldn't be.
And here's my problem are we likely to finish in the bottom with Price, Subban, Pacioretty, etc...

Price can drag the team out the basement by himself if he has a good season. It's very hard to tank when you have an elite goaltender

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01-20-2013, 03:43 PM
  #148
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I really want to know how we're supposed to improve the team if we don't try and get draft picks and prospects. And if no one wants to trade any of our veterans. Any solutions?
Nobody is saying not to trade any of our veterans, but having a fire sale and dumping every player over the age of 27 while getting nothing but draft picks back in return will do nothing but make the team unwatchable for the next 3 years.

Even lotto picks bust.

If we are going to trade someone as important as Plekanec, we should be packaging him with a draft pick for someone like Perry, not trading him for a late 1st rounder that will be lucky to turn into a player half as good. If anything rather than holding on to vets too long this team has a proud record of letting them go for nothing.

Even if it's about clearing cap space, you need to have a target in mind. What the Rangers did with Gomez only made sense because they immediately followed it with some big free agent signings, and Gomez had a far worse contract that anyone on the Habs books besides Gomez.


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Old
01-20-2013, 03:47 PM
  #149
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I really want to know how we're supposed to improve the team if we don't try and get draft picks and prospects. And if no one wants to trade any of our veterans. Any solutions?
How about the team starts keeping them instead of trading them for next to nothing ?

Dont you think our future would be in better shape had we kept
- Sergei Kost (traded for virtually nothing)
- Latendresse (traded for a guy we've let go for free 18 months later)
- Lapierre

for example...

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01-20-2013, 03:50 PM
  #150
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Nobody is saying not to trade any of our veterans, but having a fire sale and dumping every player over the age of 27 while getting nothing but draft picks back in return will do nothing but make the team unwatchable for the next 3 years.

Even lotto picks bust.

If we are going to trade someone as important as Plekanec, we should be packaging him with a draft pick for someone like Perry, not trading him for a late 1st rounder that will be lucky to turn into a player half as good. If anything rather than holding on to vets too long this team has a proud record of letting them go for nothing. We replaced Koivu with Gomez FFS.
So the issue is Plekanec. Personally, I have never included Plekanec in my lists. I think he should stay.

The rest are easily replaceable in FA. They should be dealt. For example: Trade Gionta for 1st + prospect. Sign Morrow.

Really not that hard.

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