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P.K Subban Thread 4.0 - Still Unsigned Edition

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01-20-2013, 03:14 PM
  #276
gusfring
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
For a lot of people, defense is:

1. Being huge.
2. Guarding the front of the net.
3. Hitting guys
4. Blocking shots


The idea that the best defense is having the puck and keeping the other team from getting it is one of the many modern ideas that have yet to penetrate casual fan discussions.
You need balance.

ie. LA Kings

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01-20-2013, 03:14 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
For a lot of people, defense is:

1. Being huge.
2. Guarding the front of the net.
3. Hitting guys
4. Blocking shots


The idea that the best defense is having the puck and keeping the other team from getting it is one of the many modern ideas that have yet to penetrate casual fan discussions.
So true. The best defense is always being well positioned to not give any space. If there's no gap between you and the forward, he can't even take a shot (unless Ovie from 05-10 shows up). Most of the time, if you have to block the shot, it's because there was an error made somewhere. In a perfect world, the best defensive guys wouldn't have any blocked shots on their stats. But hockey is a sport of error so a guy willing to sacrifice his body to cover his mistake or his teammate's mistake becomes handy.

To think about it, they are pretty handy when there's a penalty to kill. Oh well, my point still stands that the best defense is being well positioned and winning the one on one battles.

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01-20-2013, 03:19 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
Last night on hotstove there was an exchange between PJ Stock and Kevin Weekes about PK's "off ice questions", something that Weekes dismissed as a dollar factor but he never really denied as existing.

Anybody have an specific idea of what they are referring to? There's a lot of innuendo around this player but I suspect PJ doesn't just go around spreading gossip.
PJ has always been critical of PK for some weird reason. He's also not the biggest Habs supporter since they dumped him in after 20 games! I think the guy is only marginally better than Kypreos if you know what I'm saying

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01-20-2013, 03:19 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan View Post
I'm guessing that not many very enticing offer sheets have made their way to Mehan's desk concerning Subban for a few reasons. First, if a ridiculous offer sheet was there he would probably have taken it unless he really wants to stay in Montreal PK did mention that was his goal. Since we would know about this within 24 hours, this probably did not happen yet. Over $6,268,176 we would get two first round picks so it's not that bad to loose Subban for that. Second, if a reasonable offer sheet was presented and PK signed it (let's say 4.5 million over 5 years) MB would have matched it, the compensation is just too low around that range. Third, if Bergevin is only offering a stupidly low short term-contract (let's say 2-2-5 million for two years and this is offending to PK he should go for any offer sheet that have been presented to him that is better than what's on the table from MB. The Habs would likely match that as well because the compensation is just too low.

Although I think PK is a great player, I just don't think the offer sheets are pilling up.
If a team wants Subban the best method is to talk to Bergevin and offer the players, prospects and picks that they are willing to trade for him to get a deal done and take it from there. If Bergevin refuses, then look at submitting an offer sheet for Subban. I honestly don't think 2 - 1st round picks are going to cut it. I think a top shelf prospect/player and a 1st might.

Subban signing an offer sheet from someone else is saying "I'm okay with playing elsewhere", which isn't an ideal situation if he wants to stay a Hab long term.

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01-20-2013, 03:24 PM
  #280
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Non-signing of PK is just inexcusable, especially when you look at the contract Price received from this very same management team. It's borderline absurd. PK isn't any other player and shouldn't be treated like one.

Big time minus for the organization on this whole situation. ****ing disappointing.

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01-20-2013, 03:25 PM
  #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
For a lot of people, defense is:

1. Being huge.
2. Guarding the front of the net.
3. Hitting guys
4. Blocking shots


The idea that the best defense is having the puck and keeping the other team from getting it is one of the many modern ideas that have yet to penetrate casual fan discussions.
What is interesting if you have on one hand fans dismissing Subban's defense for not being a 6'5" monster who stands in front of the net all game hitting guys, and on the other hand you have fans dismissing his offense by comparing his point total to Del Zotto and Karlsson. I'm not sure which is worse, I'm guessing the latter because it's typically the same people trying to chase Eller and Plekanec out of town for not putting up 100 points in their roles.

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01-20-2013, 03:27 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Non-signing of PK is just inexcusable, especially when you look at the contract Price received from this very same management team. It's borderline absurd. PK isn't any other player and shouldn't be treated like one.

Big time minus for the organization on this whole situation. ****ing disappointing.
I totally agree 100%.................What the **** is going on!!!!! ****, ****, ****.

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Old
01-20-2013, 03:29 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan View Post
I'm guessing that not many very enticing offer sheets have made their way to Mehan's desk concerning Subban for a few reasons. First, if a ridiculous offer sheet was there he would probably have taken it unless he really wants to stay in Montreal PK did mention that was his goal. Since we would know about this within 24 hours, this probably did not happen yet. Over $6,268,176 we would get two first round picks so it's not that bad to loose Subban for that. Second, if a reasonable offer sheet was presented and PK signed it (let's say 4.5 million over 5 years) MB would have matched it, the compensation is just too low around that range. Third, if Bergevin is only offering a stupidly low short term-contract (let's say 2-2-5 million for two years and this is offending to PK he should go for any offer sheet that have been presented to him that is better than what's on the table from MB. The Habs would likely match that as well because the compensation is just too low.

Although I think PK is a great player, I just don't think the offer sheets are pilling up.
In case you haven't notice, offer sheets signings aren't necessarily a common practice. It happens, but not often.
Also, picks, no matter how many, are a bad return for PK. There seems to be this idea that every 1st round pick becomes some type of great player, it's far from being the case, very far. You need a top 5 pick, and even then, there's countless examples of top 5 picks not panning out at all. Say Detroit signs him to an offersheet, those 1st round picks are likely 20+, so that is very far away from a top 5 pick. And depending on the draft, picking so low pretty much equals a second round pick.
It's counterproductive to trade such a good young player for picks and then hope you can pick someone that, hopefully, will be as good as him.

I think offersheets are more of a negotiation tactic, as a last resort, than anything else. If the player wanted to be out, he'd ask for a trade, which could be something PK demands if this situation doesn't get fixed.


From a managerial aspect, not re-signing your best player is a major fail. It's more of a fail than overpaying for him.

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Old
01-20-2013, 03:34 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
From a managerial aspect, not re-signing your best player is a major fail. It's more of a fail than overpaying for him.
It doesn't get simpler than this.

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Old
01-20-2013, 03:35 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
Last night on hotstove there was an exchange between PJ Stock and Kevin Weekes about PK's "off ice questions", something that Weekes dismissed as a dollar factor but he never really denied as existing.

Anybody have an specific idea of what they are referring to? There's a lot of innuendo around this player but I suspect PJ doesn't just go around spreading gossip.
Actually he did dismiss it. He said there's never been one off ice issue with him that was reported, and then was cut rapidly by PJ.
PJ also said they're using MDZ's deal as a comparable and seemed to somewhat agree with the value (or maybe add a bit more). Elliot quickly said it's not even close to being comparable.


Last edited by Kriss E: 01-20-2013 at 03:52 PM.
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01-20-2013, 03:39 PM
  #286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
Last night on hotstove there was an exchange between PJ Stock and Kevin Weekes about PK's "off ice questions", something that Weekes dismissed as a dollar factor but he never really denied as existing.

Anybody have an specific idea of what they are referring to? There's a lot of innuendo around this player but I suspect PJ doesn't just go around spreading gossip.
I watched it and it sounded to me like PJ was talking out of his ass as usual. And even if not, weekes dismissed it by saying there are tons of players with issues and you make it work.

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Old
01-20-2013, 03:41 PM
  #287
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There is absolutely no rush to sign Subban. He is a pretty good dman, but nothing that great so far either. And you don't give contracts based on upside.

Bergevin's looking great so far.

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01-20-2013, 03:42 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by domdo345 View Post
So true. The best defense is always being well positioned to not give any space. If there's no gap between you and the forward, he can't even take a shot (unless Ovie from 05-10 shows up). Most of the time, if you have to block the shot, it's because there was an error made somewhere. In a perfect world, the best defensive guys wouldn't have any blocked shots on their stats. But hockey is a sport of error so a guy willing to sacrifice his body to cover his mistake or his teammate's mistake becomes handy.

To think about it, they are pretty handy when there's a penalty to kill. Oh well, my point still stands that the best defense is being well positioned and winning the one on one battles.
That's for sure, my point is if that is all you can do you end up being Luke Schenn, who can't shutdown anyone.

Defending in the D Zone against a set up opponent is a key part of overall defense, but very far from the whole thing.

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01-20-2013, 03:43 PM
  #289
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It's one game but I don't think that is too short sample size for our defense. Subban IS the Montreal defense, and I laugh thinking back to those posts where some people tried to make me believe Gorges was more important than Subban last year (and this off-season).

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01-20-2013, 03:45 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan View Post
I'm guessing that not many very enticing offer sheets have made their way to Mehan's desk concerning Subban for a few reasons. First, if a ridiculous offer sheet was there he would probably have taken it unless he really wants to stay in Montreal PK did mention that was his goal. Since we would know about this within 24 hours, this probably did not happen yet. Over $6,268,176 we would get two first round picks so it's not that bad to loose Subban for that. Second, if a reasonable offer sheet was presented and PK signed it (let's say 4.5 million over 5 years) MB would have matched it, the compensation is just too low around that range. Third, if Bergevin is only offering a stupidly low short term-contract (let's say 2-2-5 million for two years and this is offending to PK he should go for any offer sheet that have been presented to him that is better than what's on the table from MB. The Habs would likely match that as well because the compensation is just too low.

Although I think PK is a great player, I just don't think the offer sheets are pilling up.
Also the offer sheets for 6 or 7 years won't come because the compensation is ramped up in such cases when you divide total dollars by the maximum of 5 years.

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01-20-2013, 03:47 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by LeMAD View Post
There is absolutely no rush to sign Subban. He is a pretty good dman, but nothing that great so far either. And you don't give contracts based on upside.

Bergevin's looking great so far.
Even if Subban had no upside left, he'd still be a high end first pairing defender, so yes, if Subban is not signed soon he will find his money elsewhere.

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01-20-2013, 03:48 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Actually he did dismiss it. He said there's never been one off ice issue with him, and then was cut rapidly by PJ.
PJ also said they're using MDZ's deal as a comparable and seemed to somewhat agree with the value (or maybe add a bit more). Elliot quickly said it's not even close to being comparable.
Yes, Weekes said "this gentleman has not had an off ice challenge given to him" , after mentioning Kane and Doughty. I didn't get a feel that was an outright dismissal of PJ's innuendo. Maybe I heard the wrong emphasis on the wrong syllables but I can't help but feel there's always something unspoken but "in the air" in a discussion about PK.

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01-20-2013, 03:51 PM
  #293
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Sure, because that's exactly what people are saying..

Why discuss things when you can't keep up with the discussion?
Oddly enough that is exactly what people are saying. Just because you are embarrassed by your own love affair/homerism doesn't make it any less amusing to everyone else.

Around here Subban has become some sort of golden god and greatest player on the team. He cannot be questioned in any way possible, he is beyond reproach among the faithful. This is the same "objectivity" that had people chanting "I trust in Bob" during those awful years.

People here want Subban signed at whatever price Subban wants, the team no longer matters because Subban has become the team.

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01-20-2013, 03:53 PM
  #294
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
Yes, Weekes said "this gentleman has not had an off ice challenge given to him" , after mentioning Kane and Doughty. I didn't get a feel that was an outright dismissal of PJ's innuendo. Maybe I heard the wrong emphasis on the wrong syllables but I can't help but feel there's always something unspoken but "in the air" in a discussion about PK.
That's because you want to read something into it that's not there.

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01-20-2013, 04:02 PM
  #295
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
Yes, Weekes said "this gentleman has not had an off ice challenge given to him" , after mentioning Kane and Doughty. I didn't get a feel that was an outright dismissal of PJ's innuendo. Maybe I heard the wrong emphasis on the wrong syllables but I can't help but feel there's always something unspoken but "in the air" in a discussion about PK.
Well, to be honest, I'd be very surprised if there had been an issue off ice and we wouldn't know about it. In Montreal, it would have come out.

But Weekes's point still remains, there's no shortage of young players facing off ice issues. Heck, it seems to be a common thing in Montreal. If you're a strong organization though, you fix that.
By fixing I don't mean trade. That's just moving the problem away but it's only a matter of time before you'll have to deal with the same problem again. You can't keep trading away good young players because you don't want to deal with the issue.
So, you find a way to handle these guys and set them back on the proper route.

But, as mentioned, there has been no such report about PK.

Even if there was though, like for Carter and Richards in Philly, despite each being signed to huge deal, you can still manage to make a trade, and for a pretty decent return.

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01-20-2013, 04:07 PM
  #296
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There is absolutely no rush to sign Subban. He is a pretty good dman, but nothing that great so far either. And you don't give contracts based on upside.

Bergevin's looking great so far.
So are our chance of making the playoffs.

BTW you just described Price's contract all about the upside since he only won one playoff series.

I can ******** on the fact that he wouldn't sign a 5 mil deal for 4-5 years it's what the market is all about. He is hands down better than Byfuglien, Myers, Johnson and still they are paid more than 4 mill.

Pay the kid for christ sake, he is one of the top players on this team and is mabe the one with the more upsides. Plus he helps putting butts in seats and selling merchandise.

It's mind blowing that a deal hasn't been made when you saw how much bergevin gave to Price.

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01-20-2013, 04:14 PM
  #297
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Oddly enough that is exactly what people are saying. Just because you are embarrassed by your own love affair/homerism doesn't make it any less amusing to everyone else.

Around here Subban has become some sort of golden god and greatest player on the team. He cannot be questioned in any way possible, he is beyond reproach among the faithful. This is the same "objectivity" that had people chanting "I trust in Bob" during those awful years.

People here want Subban signed at whatever price Subban wants, the team no longer matters because Subban has become the team.
As I said, why discuss when you can't keep up with the discussions.
I've followed the four PK threads, and I have never read one person say we should sign PK at 7M for 10y. You can't even sign a player for 10years. So, you are out to lunch, BIG TIME.
Heck, there isn't one person here that said they want PK signed to a Doughty like deal. The highest number I've seen here was 6M, but that wasn't even about wanting PK at that price, it's a speculation saying that it's maybe what he wants. So from there they should negotiate down and maybe settle between 4.5-5.5M.
So, you are truly lost.

PK has been our best player. You can make a case for Price, but outside of him, it's PK. Not sure what you really want to argue there, but you're only going to make yourself look bad, although you're used to that by now.

Don't talk about Markov, he is a question mark and wasn't here the past two years.

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01-20-2013, 04:15 PM
  #298
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Off topic here but I was wondering what everyone else thought. Kelly Hrudy is always giving it to PJ Stock on twitter about having to work with him and what not and I just always assumed it was just all in good fun.

However, after thinking about it and remembering how much of a moron Stock is, think he really does hate him and that's why he's not in studio anymore? I sure hope so!

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01-20-2013, 04:28 PM
  #299
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http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle4367867/

Here are the draft pick compensation figures for the 2012-13 season:

$1,110,249 or below - No Compensation

Over $1,110,249 to $1,682,194 - 3rd round pick

Over $1,682,194 to $3,364,391 - 2nd round pick

Over $3,364,391 to $5,046,585 - 1st round pick, 3rd

Over $5,046,585 to $6,728,781 - 1st round pick, 2nd, 3rd

Over $6,728,781 To $8,410,976 - Two 1st Round Picks, 2nd, 3rd

Over $8,410,976 - Four 1st Round Picks

6.728 M would be awful. Woeful ''return'' if you don't match and a very high cap hit.

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01-20-2013, 04:30 PM
  #300
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When are the picks given up? So lets say someone offers Subban 6.5 and we refuse to match. We'd get which 1st, 2nd, and 3rd picks?

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