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Murray for Tarasenko=

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Old
01-20-2013, 03:55 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HooliganX2 View Post
You seem to be very ignorant on your knowledge of Tarasenko. The Blues fans are not excited about him because of one good game. That is the point you keep bringing up. The Blues fans have been following him since he was drafted and playing in the KHL. He was always a highly thought of prospect. He was a top scorer in the KHL. His game transfers perfectly to the NHL. Tarasenko was considered to be one of the top prospects in the world last season.
Would you explain then why Tarsenko couldn't even make the team Russia squad neither at the last World Championship nor at the Channel One Cup last December, when Russians invited all their best players? I mean even Zherdev was invited both times, but Tarsenko wasn't. He's a great talent, but I would be concerned by those facts.

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01-20-2013, 04:02 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by bizzz View Post
Would you explain then why Tarsenko couldn't even make the team Russia squad neither at the last World Championship nor at the Channel One Cup last December, when Russians invited all their best players? I mean even Zherdev was invited both times, but Tarsenko wasn't. He's a great talent, but I would be concerned by those facts.
Who cares? I care what he actually does on the ice and he has been very successful the past 2 seasons in the KHL.

He can't be compared to Filatov because he plays a completely different style. The only concern with Tarasenko was if he would come over. He always said his dream was the NHL, but I guess a lot of people didn't believe it. We took a chance and we landed a top talent. If he was from the States or Canada, then he would have been in the top 5.

Blues have also been watching and following him while he was playing in the NHL and we already knew the type of player he was and how he plays the game. Our view and value of him was not affected by last night's game.

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01-20-2013, 04:03 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by bizzz View Post
Would you explain then why Tarsenko couldn't even make the team Russia squad neither at the last World Championship nor at the Channel One Cup last December, when Russians invited all their best players? I mean even Zherdev was invited both times, but Tarsenko wasn't. He's a great talent, but I would be concerned by those facts.
There is so much speculation on why he wasn't on the worlds team it's not funny. A lot of people believe it was more to do with other politics not related to his on the ice performance.

The statements on why he didn't make the team by the coach seem so off the wall and out there that it wasn't very believable. I makes it seem like it had to be for politics rather then the stated reasons.

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01-20-2013, 04:06 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
Columbus has prospect/young player depth at all positions except sniping. I can't think of one legitimate high end sniper in the system or on the roster. Tarasenko is such a player and would fit well with their large Russian contingent. Murray is good but even without him Columbus is stacked on defense and could have a pretty good top 6 with Savard and Moore on the bottom pairing.

Murray could be a high end answer to Pietrangelo's long term partner, which I assume St. Louis would want more than scoring depth since they're already pretty loaded on offense and even without Tarasenko have Rattie, Jaskin, etc in the system.

So would Murray for Tarasenko+ (not very big +) make sense? I think Tarasenko would be added to since he's 2 years older and plays the less important position.
I dont believe the trade you presented makes much sense and ofcourse St Louis would never do it. Tarasenko is the better player plus hes exactly what the team needs right now. The Blues have a great defense as it stands and Vladimir is contributing significantly. If the Jackets needed a sniper so bad then why even draft Murray in the first place?
They could have drafted the best offensive player in the draft in Galchenyuk.

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01-20-2013, 04:08 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Crede777 View Post
Not at all.

You aren't trading for Murray for what he can do in the next 6 months. You're trading for him for what he can do in the next 10 years.

Basically think of him as being in a holding pattern. Since the draft his value has gone neither up nor down. It's simply stayed the same.

Do I think the Blues should trade Tarasenko? No. Do I think the kid who was just recently drafted 2nd overall holds more value? Yes. Do I think this thread is way too reactionary based off of 1 game? Of course. Like I said, the only reason why this thread was made was because Tarasenko scored 2 goals tonight.
Except the Blues need a top quality sniper this season and next, not a defensemen who might be ready to contribute significantly a few years from now.

The injury affects his value because it causes a speed bump in his development.

The proposal doesn't take into account St. Louis' window of competeing for the Cup.

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01-20-2013, 04:08 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by CitizenSnips View Post
The problem with this logic is that if Tarasenko was a guarantee to come over to the NHL during his draft year, there is no way he is drafted any later than third and possibly first or second. He would be looked at as the same level talent as Hall and Seguin. That said, why would we trade a 3rd(ish) for a 2nd that is 2 years development time away and that doesn't address our biggest need from last year?

Sorry, there is no logic that would make us even take a look at this deal. We are trying to win now and we have been excited for this kid long enough.
I completely disagree with that.

Hall and Seguin were on a different level from Tarasenko in his draft year. It's understandable that Blues fans are at a fever pitch about the kid and they are way high on him. However, they need to give it time before proclaiming him the next Malkin or savior of the franchise. That's completely premature. He may have jumped ahead a few spots, but I'm convinced Columbus would have stuck with Johansen, Florida would have stuck with Gudbranson, Boston with Seguin, and Edmonton with Hall. After all the problems that Russians have caused Columbus, there's no way he would have been drafted 4th.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemandan
The injury affects his value because it causes a speed bump in his development.
One of the major positives for Murray is the fact that he is already very far in his development. This is only a minor bump and is no more significant than Yakupov and Galchenyuk's injuries last year. It doesn't affect his value, especially to the Blue Jackets. If someone is to ask for Murray, they need to assume that his value is that he's the 2nd best player in the 2012 draft and hasn't gone down because that's how Scott Howson views it.


Last edited by Crede777: 01-20-2013 at 04:20 PM.
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01-20-2013, 04:10 PM
  #57
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Neither team does this. Both teams like their prospects a lot. Murray might be a top pairing D and Tarasenko could be a Top line winger. Both prospects have immense potential so let's keep it civil and leave it at that. Way too early to say who's better.

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01-20-2013, 04:11 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by bizzz View Post
Would you explain then why Tarsenko couldn't even make the team Russia squad neither at the last World Championship nor at the Channel One Cup last December, when Russians invited all their best players? I mean even Zherdev was invited both times, but Tarsenko wasn't. He's a great talent, but I would be concerned by those facts.
Kuznetsov made the team, but almost wasn't playing during play-off, despite good enough statistics before. It's just Bill. He prefers older players with experience. And Zherdev was awful btw. I mean it was obvious what players made Russia world champion, and Zherdev wasn't one of them...

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01-20-2013, 04:19 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BROOKLYnKNIGHTS View Post
I dont believe the trade you presented makes much sense and ofcourse St Louis would never do it. Tarasenko is the better player plus hes exactly what the team needs right now. The Blues have a great defense as it stands and Vladimir is contributing significantly. If the Jackets needed a sniper so bad then why even draft Murray in the first place?
They could have drafted the best offensive player in the draft in Galchenyuk.
Because generally you should always draft BPA. And consensus was that Murray was BPA.

And yes, I know some folks disagree on that.

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01-20-2013, 04:21 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Crede777 View Post
I completely disagree with that.

Hall and Seguin were on a different level from Tarasenko in his draft year. He probably would have gone 8th-15th if coming over weren't a problem.


You can't say he IS or WILL BE a super star in the NHL until later from now. You can only say that you HOPE he will be one. I like how he looks and I'm not saying he will fail, but there's no such thing as a sure thing with prospects. I know I'll get a lot of criticism for saying that because Blues fans are at a fever pitch about how he is, but it's like with Chris Kreider and everyone else. Until they've played a while in the NHL, nobody knows what they are.



One of the major positives for Murray is the fact that he is already very far in his development. This is only a minor bump and is no more significant than Yakupov and Galchenyuk's injuries last year. It doesn't affect his value, especially to the Blue Jackets. If someone is to ask for Murray, they need to assume that his value is that he's the 2nd best player in the 2012 draft and hasn't gone down because that's how Scott Howson views it.
Well, if he was an american or canadian, he'd play in CHL. And considering he was good enough to play in KHL at age 16, I guess his CHL statistics could be just amazing. And at age 18 he was mature enough to play in NHL, and such players always have the advantage on drafts. So who knows... It won't be a big surprise if Tarasenko turns out to be the best player of that draft...

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01-20-2013, 04:23 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Kshahdoo View Post
Well, if he was an american or canadian, he'd play in CHL. And considering he was good enough to play in KHL at age 16, I guess his CHL statistics could be just amazing. And at age 18 he was mature enough to play in NHL, and such players always have the advantage on drafts. So who knows... It won't be a big surprise if Tarasenko turns out to be the best player of that draft...
If he was American or Canadian, he might not even have played hockey at all.

Being Russian and coming up in the KHL is a fundamental aspect of why Tarasenko is who he is. And it's also a fundamental aspect of why he wasn't chosen early.

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01-20-2013, 04:30 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
Who cares? I care what he actually does on the ice and he has been very successful the past 2 seasons in the KHL.

He can't be compared to Filatov because he plays a completely different style. The only concern with Tarasenko was if he would come over. He always said his dream was the NHL, but I guess a lot of people didn't believe it. We took a chance and we landed a top talent. If he was from the States or Canada, then he would have been in the top 5.

Blues have also been watching and following him while he was playing in the NHL and we already knew the type of player he was and how he plays the game. Our view and value of him was not affected by last night's game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HooliganX2 View Post
There is so much speculation on why he wasn't on the worlds team it's not funny. A lot of people believe it was more to do with other politics not related to his on the ice performance.

The statements on why he didn't make the team by the coach seem so off the wall and out there that it wasn't very believable. I makes it seem like it had to be for politics rather then the stated reasons.
I don't think politics has anything to do with it. Tarasenko was given every opportunity to secure a spot on the national team roster and he blew it. His stats over the last 2 years for team Russia:
November 2011. Karjala Cup. 3 games, 0 points.
December 2011. Channel One Cup. 3 games, 1 assist.
February 2012. Sweden Hockey Games. 3 games. 1 assist.
April 2012. Czech Hockey Games. 3 games, 0 points.
November 2012. Karjala Cup. 3 games, 0 points.

2(0+2) points in 15 games for the national team. You can't blame politics for such terrible performance.

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01-20-2013, 04:30 PM
  #63
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Find one Blues fan calling him Malkin or a savior.

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01-20-2013, 04:31 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Crede777 View Post
I completely disagree with that.

Hall and Seguin were on a different level from Tarasenko in his draft year. It's understandable that Blues fans are at a fever pitch about the kid and they are way high on him. However, they need to give it time before proclaiming him the next Malkin or savior of the franchise. That's completely premature. He may have jumped ahead a few spots, but I'm convinced Columbus would have stuck with Johansen, Florida would have stuck with Gudbranson, Boston with Seguin, and Edmonton with Hall. After all the problems that Russians have caused Columbus, there's no way he would have been drafted 4th.



One of the major positives for Murray is the fact that he is already very far in his development. This is only a minor bump and is no more significant than Yakupov and Galchenyuk's injuries last year. It doesn't affect his value, especially to the Blue Jackets. If someone is to ask for Murray, they need to assume that his value is that he's the 2nd best player in the 2012 draft and hasn't gone down because that's how Scott Howson views it.
The top 5 thing comes from a quote from Jarmo Kekilianen at the time. Something along the lines of, 'If his name was Mike Smith, he'd be considered for top 5.' In all fairness, I'd be willing to bet the Islanders would trade Nino Niederreiter (top 5 pick) for Tarasenko.


While I understand that there is no reason for the Blue Jackets to value Murray less because of his injury, it does play a factor for teams with a limited competitive window. The Blues need players that can contribute NOW. Not in a year or two. That is why the Blues wouldn't ask for a guy like Murray. If anything, we would be interested in Tyutin. A big, physical, left handed defensemen who is already developed and can contribute right away is much more appealing to the Blues currently than a long term option that might not be ready for a while.

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01-20-2013, 04:34 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Crede777 View Post
If he was American or Canadian, he might not even have played hockey at all.

Being Russian and coming up in the KHL is a fundamental aspect of why Tarasenko is who he is. And it's also a fundamental aspect of why he wasn't chosen early.
Hehe, it's hard to argue. But it's hard to argue as well, if a canadian kid has even a grain of a hockey talent he becomes a hockeyist. And Tarasenko's talent perhaps more than a grain.

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01-20-2013, 04:41 PM
  #66
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Take away Tarasenko's 2 goals...pretend they never happened. Tarasenko still has more value than Murray

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01-20-2013, 04:45 PM
  #67
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Wrong he was not a top scorer in the KHL, 131 points I
207 games is far from that
In all do respect of what you think you know, you are very ignorant. Do everyone a favor a research points per min of ice time and compare that to the rest of the league. Let me know what you find out.

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01-20-2013, 04:46 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by ottawa View Post
Take away Tarasenko's 2 goals...pretend they never happened. Tarasenko still has more value than Murray
Absolutely, to the Blues...You know, the team that would be losing something they need...The team that people on here make fun of because of their lack of star power at the forward position.

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01-20-2013, 04:50 PM
  #69
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In all do respect of what you think you know, you are very ignorant. Do everyone a favor a research points per min of ice time and compare that to the rest of the league. Let me know what you find out.
Add age into that equation as well. When you compare him to other prospects in Russia, he fits right in with the big boys. And no, I'm not saying he's the next Malkin...Look up my point predictions about him for proof if you feel I'm overhyping him.

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01-20-2013, 04:52 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crede777 View Post
After all the problems that Russians have caused Columbus, there's no way he would have been drafted 4th.
Lemme revise that for you:

Quote:
After all the problems that Russian forwards that we've drafted have caused Columbus...
'Cause I don't know about you, but last I checked Tyutin, Nikitin, Bobrovsky, and Anisimov were all Russian.

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01-20-2013, 04:57 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by ottawa View Post
Take away Tarasenko's 2 goals...pretend they never happened. Tarasenko still has more value than Murray
No, he doesn't. In the KHL he could be a king one night and then just disappear for another few games, just like Zherdev at his age. Consistence is a big problem for Tarasenko. He was pointless in 7 of his last 9 KHL games. I don't think that's a good sign.

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01-20-2013, 05:01 PM
  #72
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First of all, he's not available for anything less than a overpayment based on his current skill level and potential (and that's assuming Doug Armstrong becomes a Laurie and tries to sell off the team's assests).

Second of all, we are not trading him anywhere within the Western Conference much less within the Central Division (if he SOMEHOW got traded).

It's not happening. End of story.


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01-20-2013, 05:04 PM
  #73
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Oh good page 3, aka "that guy we're trying to trade for but not improve your roster isn't that great anyway so you should just give up on him"

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01-20-2013, 05:07 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crede777 View Post
I completely disagree with that.

Hall and Seguin were on a different level from Tarasenko in his draft year. It's understandable that Blues fans are at a fever pitch about the kid and they are way high on him. However, they need to give it time before proclaiming him the next Malkin or savior of the franchise. That's completely premature. He may have jumped ahead a few spots, but I'm convinced Columbus would have stuck with Johansen, Florida would have stuck with Gudbranson, Boston with Seguin, and Edmonton with Hall. After all the problems that Russians have caused Columbus, there's no way he would have been drafted 4th.
I am okay with agreeing to disagree on this but the only reason those two were on a "different level" is due to the fact not as many people had the same amount of information about Tarasenko as they did for Hall and Seguin.

Nobody is calling him "the next Malkin", all we are saying is that we are (rightfully) very high on the kid and he provides us with what we need the most. Trading him, whether he had the game he had or not, makes zero sense to us as a hockey club.

I do agree that Columbus would have probably avoided him like the plague, and any further argument about where he would have been drafted is just opinion and I think we have already all addressed that.

I really do think he has more value right now than any player not in the NHL, especially to us

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01-20-2013, 05:10 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNuge View Post
Realistically tara just had a big night for the club, wait an see how he produces over the rest of the short season.

As far as I'm concerned from an outsiders perspective, Murray has a much higher value than tara, not because of the Russian factor or anything like that... Hes a stand out player that played at the men's worlds as a 17 year old... He was taken over the NHL ready
Defenseman...

Realistic value,

Tarasenko
2nd

For
Murray
You really have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

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