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P.K Subban Thread 4.0 - Still Unsigned Edition

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01-20-2013, 05:32 PM
  #301
Marc the Habs Fan
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
When are the picks given up? So lets say someone offers Subban 6.5 and we refuse to match. We'd get which 1st, 2nd, and 3rd picks?
It has to be that team's original picks and in the next draft. So 2013.

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01-20-2013, 05:35 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
It has to be that team's original picks and in the next draft. So 2013.
Timmins would lay down an epic draft with 8 picks in the top 90. But, still not worth it.

Sign the man already.

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01-20-2013, 05:36 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
That's for sure, my point is if that is all you can do you end up being Luke Schenn, who can't shutdown anyone.

Defending in the D Zone against a set up opponent is a key part of overall defense, but very far from the whole thing.
That's why I get mad when people knock career guys like Jagr for lack of defense, his puck control and ability to drive the play in the offensive zone far outweighs any deficiency he may have had on d.

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01-20-2013, 05:38 PM
  #304
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Here's more on the topic:

http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/20...-of-p-k-subban

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01-20-2013, 05:43 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle4367867/

Here are the draft pick compensation figures for the 2012-13 season:

$1,110,249 or below - No Compensation

Over $1,110,249 to $1,682,194 - 3rd round pick

Over $1,682,194 to $3,364,391 - 2nd round pick

Over $3,364,391 to $5,046,585 - 1st round pick, 3rd

Over $5,046,585 to $6,728,781 - 1st round pick, 2nd, 3rd

Over $6,728,781 To $8,410,976 - Two 1st Round Picks, 2nd, 3rd

Over $8,410,976 - Four 1st Round Picks

6.728 M would be awful. Woeful ''return'' if you don't match and a very high cap hit.
It is not the yearly cap hit, it is the total amount divided by 5 or the number of years of the deal (whichever is lower).

eg. team offers 30 million over 6 years. 30/5 = 6million
team offers 40 million over 7years. 40/5 = 8million

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01-20-2013, 05:47 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by peate View Post
I love Subban but everything isn't so black and white. There are either posts that are bias for Subban (this article) or vice versa.

And Subban isn't better than every player on that list. People really overvalue him right now. I want him on the team and I don't care what happens, but the overrating is ridiculous. He's good but has a long way to go still.

Not to mention, a lot of those guys were signed to long term deals after 1 or 2 good seasons. Now they aren't worth the money they are paid. Exactly what Bergy is trying to avoid.

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01-20-2013, 05:47 PM
  #307
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Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
I love Subban but everything isn't so black and white. There are either posts that are bias for Subban (this article) or vice versa.

And Subban isn't better than every player on that list. People really overvalue him right now. I want him on the team and I don't care what happens, but the overrating is ridiculous. He's good but has a long way to go still.
Who is better from the list.

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01-20-2013, 05:48 PM
  #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
I love Subban but everything isn't so black and white. There are either posts that are bias for Subban (this article) or vice versa.

And Subban isn't better than every player on that list. People really overvalue him right now. I want him on the team and I don't care what happens, but the overrating is ridiculous. He's good but has a long way to go still.
Voice of reason. Agreed.

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01-20-2013, 05:56 PM
  #309
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Originally Posted by peate View Post
This is not a balanced article.

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01-20-2013, 05:59 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Who is better from the list.
Sutter and many others...did they actually look at career stats before posting this?

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01-20-2013, 06:03 PM
  #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
I love Subban but everything isn't so black and white. There are either posts that are bias for Subban (this article) or vice versa.

And Subban isn't better than every player on that list. People really overvalue him right now. I want him on the team and I don't care what happens, but the overrating is ridiculous. He's good but has a long way to go still.

Not to mention, a lot of those guys were signed to long term deals after 1 or 2 good seasons. Now they aren't worth the money they are paid. Exactly what Bergy is trying to avoid.
No need to bring race into this...

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01-20-2013, 06:05 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by Le Tricolore View Post
No need to bring race into this...
I don't think this is what he meant

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01-20-2013, 06:14 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan View Post
This is not a balanced article.
I know, I wanted to show what blind love looks like.

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01-20-2013, 06:27 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Myers is entering his 4th year. PK has just the same potential as this kid.
Also Myers struggled a lot more in his sophomore season, more so than whatever ''struggles'' PK had, and last year, he was injured for close to 30games. Yet they gave him a 7y deal after his ELC.
I think they have different potential, very different styles of play. Maybe PK is more a highlight reel guy than a franchise defenceman. Anyway hoping this ends well.

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01-20-2013, 06:30 PM
  #315
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Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan View Post
Sutter and many others...did they actually look at career stats before posting this?
Suter you mean? I disagree. What happened long ago is irrelevant to what is happening now. PK is a better dman today.

Do yourself a favor and read up on advance statistics and you'll see how under-appreciated PK really is.

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01-20-2013, 06:34 PM
  #316
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Originally Posted by JLP View Post
I think they have different potential, very different styles of play. Maybe PK is more a highlight reel guy than a franchise defenceman. Anyway hoping this ends well.
Both have franchise Dman potential, and neither are there yet.

Hoping it ends well too. It's frustrating because for the first time in a few years, Markov is healthy. Having him and PK on the same team would be tremendous, especially if Markov can get back to where he was. After yesterday's game, I'm sure Markov could get back, so long that his health permits it.

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Old
01-20-2013, 06:39 PM
  #317
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I like the fact that MB is not giving into a long-term multi-millions $ contract at the moment. If the team was in a position to compete at a high level I would be.

He knows the team can under-perform this year and the benifits will be good with the draft, he knows PK hasn't fully establish what he is asking for and if he did, he would end-up having a hard time saying no when in the future to other players who would ask for the same price.

He's also gaining the trust of his current players by not giving the guy who's a little controversial too much credit.

Yes PK has the ice-time to be recognized as a solid D, he also has a +9 rating in a 15th placed team 1st amongst defencemen. But that's not enough to spit out 6M$ a year and since the team needs to add players, that contract would jeopardize the UFA and trade market this summer.

Don't worry, Subban will play in MTL this season, simply because he has no choice, since if he sits this one out no GM in his right state of mind would give him the money he asks for. Maybe a floor team would but I don't suspect he'd be willing to play in PHX, DAL, or Long Island.

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01-20-2013, 06:40 PM
  #318
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Originally Posted by peate View Post

Probably the most biased article I have had the misfortune to read. I just started laughing when the author starts listing defencemen which either are 1) better than subban 2) didnt sign their contract as rfa. At least the author didnt claim his work to be a balanced view...(i hope!)

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01-20-2013, 06:40 PM
  #319
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
It is not the yearly cap hit, it is the total amount divided by 5 or the number of years of the deal (whichever is lower).

eg. team offers 30 million over 6 years. 30/5 = 6million
team offers 40 million over 7years. 40/5 = 8million
Good point, forgot that.

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01-20-2013, 07:03 PM
  #320
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Fowler getting 5 years/4 mil, Myers got 7 years/5.5 mil

I think subban should get 5 years/4.5-5 mil

He is comparable to Myers, but Myers won the Calder with a terrific rookie season and is also a year younger than PK too, so I think 5 years/5 is completely reasonable..6 is a little too much

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01-20-2013, 07:07 PM
  #321
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bergevin is an idiot for not having this dealt with.plain and simple.we arent gonna have even a hope without our best d man.maybe mcquire would have been better?at least he knows how to identify a stud.

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01-20-2013, 07:11 PM
  #322
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Originally Posted by Alexdaman View Post
He knows the team can under-perform this year and the benifits will be good with the draft, he knows PK hasn't fully establish what he is asking for and if he did, he would end-up having a hard time saying no when in the future to other players who would ask for the same price.

He's also gaining the trust of his current players by not giving the guy who's a little controversial too much credit.
That doesn't make any sense. Say Eller came off his ELC, what power does he have to ask for a longer deal? He's centering the 3rd/4th line, no PP time, never even cracked 35pts.
PK, used as #1 Dman for 3/4 of his career here (and for the 1/4, used as #2), faces top oppositions, effective in all situations, and produced.
So how exactly would PK's signing to a long term deal set a precedent for every other RFA coming off their ELC?

As I previously mentioned, PK would be an exception, not the norm.


As for MB gaining the trust of his players, that's BS. He let his best player of the past two years at home..Great job earning trust there...
He's trying to build himself a reputation as a hardball negotiator. But that's not necessarily a good thing.
Also, How is PK controversial??
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexdaman View Post
Yes PK has the ice-time to be recognized as a solid D, he also has a +9 rating in a 15th placed team 1st amongst defencemen. But that's not enough to spit out 6M$ a year and since the team needs to add players, that contract would jeopardize the UFA and trade market this summer.
That's backwards logic. Let's not pay our great young player so we can go overpay for aging free agents...sure..Real smart idea.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexdaman View Post
Don't worry, Subban will play in MTL this season, simply because he has no choice, since if he sits this one out no GM in his right state of mind would give him the money he asks for. Maybe a floor team would but I don't suspect he'd be willing to play in PHX, DAL, or Long Island.
Nobody knows exactly what he's looking for, not sure how PK suddenly got this greedy and selfish reputation. Strongly doubt he's asking for 6M. There's only 11 hockey players in the NHL making that cap hit, so I doubt he's asking for that. Around 5M makes more sense, and I'm sure there's plenty of GMs that would gladly sign PK (even at 6M, or at least negotiate a bit).

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01-20-2013, 07:12 PM
  #323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
I love Subban but everything isn't so black and white. There are either posts that are bias for Subban (this article) or vice versa.

And Subban isn't better than every player on that list. People really overvalue him right now. I want him on the team and I don't care what happens, but the overrating is ridiculous. He's good but has a long way to go still.

Not to mention, a lot of those guys were signed to long term deals after 1 or 2 good seasons. Now they aren't worth the money they are paid. Exactly what Bergy is trying to avoid.
Subban is a very good player that happens to be more important to our team than he is on a list of the greatest d-men of the league. And that counts. Every d-man has always a long way to go. But he is our best d-man player out of everything we have in the organization. BY FAR. And even if the guy ends up getting 5M$ per year, even if you find out that he might not be worth it, you will always find 1 team that will give it a try. There's always 1 sucker for the first try. It's after that you might have more problems finding buyers. But in our case, you will find 1 who will most definately believe that the problem isn't PK, it's the Montreal market or the team in itself. PK has the potential to be worth what Myers has in his own way. He will be your offensive key contributor. And is improving every year defensively. And happens to be a solid hitter. Brings a lot of energy, and also can be a fan favourite. He has also that great quality that he's hated by all the others which make him a pest so you will end up having some PP's because of it. He has all the qualities you look for in a 5 M$ guy long term. Everybody with a different mindset than Bergevin will see that. And there are people like that.

I really don't get the bridge contract. If a guy happens to be a great player and has a chance to prove during his ELC, why the heck should he wait another 2 years before cashing in? When you know that a d-man can still develop till 27 years old, and you see what a 22-year old can do...how about some vision, and give him a contract that in the end you might end up saving money 'cause if you end up waiting 2 years and he does end up as good if not better than you thought....you are screwed.

There are no indications that Subban is a fluke or that he has reached his ceiling. None whatsoever. 'Cause if you happen to have that thought for him, I'm sorry, but there are also reasons to have it for Price as well. And yet...Price has that great contract on his hands. Not sure why you exactly know what a player is all about in his 3rd contract more than on his 2nd. There are a lot of examples of players who also gave some pretty bad performances...and it didn,t happen only with guys on their 2nd contract. Instead of concentrating on the number of contracts given...how about concentrating on the real evaluation of players instead. Though, I know, the latter is much tougher to do.

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01-20-2013, 07:16 PM
  #324
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Subban is a very good player that happens to be more important to our team than he is on a list of the greatest d-men of the league. And that counts. Every d-man has always a long way to go. But he is our best d-man player out of everything we have in the organization. BY FAR. And even if the guy ends up getting 5M$ per year, even if you find out that he might not be worth it, you will always find 1 team that will give it a try. There's always 1 sucker for the first try. It's after that you might have more problems finding buyers. But in our case, you will find 1 who will most definately believe that the problem isn't PK, it's the Montreal market or the team in itself. PK has the potential to be worth what Myers has in his own way. He will be your offensive key contributor. And is improving every year defensively. And happens to be a solid hitter. Brings a lot of energy, and also can be a fan favourite. He has also that great quality that he's hated by all the others which make him a pest so you will end up having some PP's because of it. He has all the qualities you look for in a 5 M$ guy long term. Everybody with a different mindset than Bergevin will see that. And there are people like that.

I really don't get the bridge contract. If a guy happens to be a great player and has a chance to prove during his ELC, why the heck should he wait another 2 years before cashing in? When you know that a d-man can still develop till 27 years old, and you see what a 22-year old can do...how about some vision, and give him a contract that in the end you might end up saving money 'cause if you end up waiting 2 years and he does end up as good if not better than you thought....you are screwed.

There are no indications that Subban is a fluke or that he has reached his ceiling. None whatsoever. 'Cause if you happen to have that thought for him, I'm sorry, but there are also reasons to have it for Price as well. And yet...Price has that great contract on his hands. Not sure why you exactly know what a player is all about in his 3rd contract more than on his 2nd. There are a lot of examples of players who also gave some pretty bad performances...and it didn,t happen only with guys on their 2nd contract. Instead of concentrating on the number of contracts given...how about concentrating on the real evaluation of players instead. Though, I know, the latter is much tougher to do.
I get the bridge contract, it makes sense to me. But that contract should be better than 3 mil. 4.5 is about right maybe 5 for two years. Subban should have no problem with that. If he produces, then show him the vault in a couple of years.

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Old
01-20-2013, 07:17 PM
  #325
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bergevin is an idiot for not having this dealt with.plain and simple.we arent gonna have even a hope without our best d man.maybe mcquire would have been better?at least he knows how to identify a stud.
Correct, somewhat...MB should have had this done before it got to this.....

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