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Habs built to win for the future?

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Old
01-20-2013, 12:42 PM
  #26
Billy6
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Originally Posted by 68 View Post
Habs are set to suck now and in the future unless Marc Bergevin has big hairy balls and is ready to do a REAL rebuild.
Yeah, and if ownership allows it.

This is the same problem with the Leafs over the last 9 years... They refuse to rebuild.

I can't get my head around the people that say that they won't accept a rebuild. Do you want to win a Cup or do you want to be a team that best case scenario could maybe win a round?

I don't know if Habs ownership is the same, but Leaf ownership sees that one round scenario, and the corresponding 4 or 5 home playoff gates, much more likely than a Stanley Cup run and so that's how the team gets built.

The result is a team that has no chance of winning the Stanley Cup.

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01-20-2013, 12:50 PM
  #27
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Can't see a firm direction or destiny for this team at least nothing inevitable. People are mistaking a few good players on the roster for having a solid core that just needs tweaking. There are big problems at forward with no obvious solutions in house, so it tells me there is nothing positive foreseeable.

I think fans need to settle in for a long haul. I find it very interesting that there are fans denying that a rebuild is needed when in fact the team has just immersed itself in one. Denials have to stop.

We can't assume that every drafted player is a prospect and that every prospect is going to max out at star potential. The team has a long evaluation process, and to get to respectability it will involve drafting developing and retaining players we don't even know about yet.

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01-20-2013, 12:59 PM
  #28
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
Can't see a firm direction or destiny for this team at least nothing inevitable. People are mistaking a few good players on the roster for having a solid core that just needs tweaking. There are big problems at forward with no obvious solutions in house, so it tells me there is nothing positive foreseeable.

I think fans need to settle in for a long haul. I find it very interesting that there are fans denying that a rebuild is needed when in fact the team has just immersed itself in one. Denials have to stop.

We can't assume that every drafted player is a prospect and that every prospect is going to max out at star potential. The team has a long evaluation process, and to get to respectability it will involve drafting developing and retaining players we don't even know about yet.
I think you might be right. Coming into this season I was thinking we've got a good core going forward and when I watched the game last night I was reminded of how difficult it's been for us to score goals over the years.

I feel okay with our D but the forwards... man we need help there. Assuming our number one line from last season can repeat (a big IF) there doesn't seem to be much behind them. Pleks is now a 50 point two way guy and that's about it. Gionta I don't have a whole lot of faith in and I'm pretty sure Galchenyuk is being sent down.

I think scoring is going to continue to be a problem. We'd better hope that Markov & PK (if he ever signs) can get the PP going. We're going to need a good PP if we want to have a decent year.

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01-20-2013, 01:00 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
You're right, that is a lot of "ifs". I guess my confidence comes from the idea that Timmins will keep cranking out a whole bunch of "ifs" (I mean that in a good way), more than most head scouts, some of them will become core players, and the Habs will have the ability to retain that core, barring another huge mistake.

I actually have the opposite view of the upcoming classes of F and D - I'm more confident in the forwards. I'll be pleasantly surprised if any of our prospects become top 3 defencemen. Among the forwards, I think Gallagher has a good chance of becoming a positive tough minutes player. Hudon is very exciting if he can stay out of the trainer's office.
Here's hoping you're right.

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01-20-2013, 01:03 PM
  #30
Andy
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While we can't assume every prospect will hit his max potential, we can't assume they will all bust either. You can still project a team and then judge accordingly, this requires looking at where players in your system may end up. Doing so, you see clearly that the problem is the winger depth on this team which is bad. None of centre's are superstars, but they don't have to be in order for this team to be a solid one.

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01-20-2013, 01:10 PM
  #31
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I think this team is a long way away from even becoming a playoff team. Defense is bad, the winger depth, which use to be a strong suit, is now really bad.

I think we're a 10-12th place in the conference team. The core is good enough to keep us out of the basement, but the supporting cast is pretty bad. I like patches, eller, pleks, subban, emelin, gally, price, dd(winger 3rd line), gorges, (not as crazy about him as some), but he's a type of player who is needed for sure.

The current crop of dman doesn't look good enough to accomplish much higher than 10th. Maybe Subban could change that, but there are too many borderline 6th dman and not enough high end talent. I think Tinordi/Ellis Beaulieu are all a couple of years away at best.

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01-20-2013, 02:40 PM
  #32
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Habs need top end talent... only place to get this is the Draft.
For starters need a no1 Dman a la Seth Jones and another top end first line winger. Another 2 years of the habs tanking (which with the current roster is easliy possible) should do the job.
Players like Cole, Gionta, Markov should be trade bait at the end of this or next year to acquire draft picks and prospects. Bergevin will have the mandate to do just that and Therien excels with young players.

JUST DO IT! I want to see the Stanley Cup banner raised at the Bell Center before the end of this decade!

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01-20-2013, 03:41 PM
  #33
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I think we are in a good position long term IF we play our cards right.

We have several bad contracts coming off the books in the Summer of '14. If we have 2 good drafts in '13 and '14, we could be sitting pretty with a good young core + loads of cap space.

edit: That's only 17 months away, so if we can be patient until then (i.e. don't trade our picks for stopgap solutions), we'll be looking good.

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01-20-2013, 04:47 PM
  #34
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We have a lot of core young players that give us potential long-term success: Price, PK, Pacioretty and Galchenyuk. That's 4.

We have a lot of guys who can add to that core group: Eller, Collberg, Tinordi, Beaulieu Ellis, Bozon and Hudon to name a few. We'll see how they do.

We need a another high end defensive and offensive prospect. Like a Jones and a Lindholm (preferably a center).

What we need to do manage our current assets correctly, something we haven't done well. We have to convert our current guys into future assets. We're suffering right now because Gainey let all those guys go without getting anything in return and we gave up on McDonagh.

Until we can build our prospect pool up, we'll have to suffer with smallish defensemen. Our six D aren't a defense of a playoff team. Hopefully after this draft and next we'll see some guys come through and we can consistently challenge.

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01-21-2013, 11:35 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
We have a lot of core young players that give us potential long-term success: Price, PK, Pacioretty and Galchenyuk. That's 4.

We have a lot of guys who can add to that core group: Eller, Collberg, Tinordi, Beaulieu Ellis, Bozon and Hudon to name a few. We'll see how they do.

We need a another high end defensive and offensive prospect. Like a Jones and a Lindholm (preferably a center).

What we need to do manage our current assets correctly, something we haven't done well. We have to convert our current guys into future assets. We're suffering right now because Gainey let all those guys go without getting anything in return and we gave up on McDonagh.

Until we can build our prospect pool up, we'll have to suffer with smallish defensemen. Our six D aren't a defense of a playoff team. Hopefully after this draft and next we'll see some guys come through and we can consistently challenge.
I look at our D and it's patchy, we're in that weird transition phase before we see the rookies. Kaberle, Bouillon... not good. Markov... wildcard. Diaz and Emelin are developing. About the only two guys we can really count on are Gorges and PK. And of course PK is out so...

As for the forwards, man I am not a fan of what we have up there. It's pretty scary to be honest. That's just not a good group.

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01-21-2013, 11:47 AM
  #36
izzy75
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Listening to the pundits this morning... everyone agrees on one thing:

We don't have a good team.

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01-21-2013, 11:50 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by izzy75 View Post
Listening to the pundits this morning... everyone agrees on one thing:

We don't have a good team.
This is not new news. We finished 15th last season. This is not a shocker. If we stay healthy we are better than we finished last season, but playoffs are likely to be out of reach (but you never know).

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01-21-2013, 11:56 AM
  #38
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They won't make the playoffs this year. However, the future is in the hands of the youngsters on D in Hamilton. The offense will fall under the responsibility of Galchenyuk and others, but that's going to take time. Bergevin and his team will be judged based on future picks and how well they develop te youngsters over the next 4 to 5 years. They can't afford mistakes like letting a guy like Giroux slip by in the draft.

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01-21-2013, 11:57 AM
  #39
thom
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Do fans want to rebuild like Edmonton Chicago pittsburg be terrible for 6 yrs like oilers get the top 3 picks in the draft thats not the habs way.Maybe its the best solution but I don't like it

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01-21-2013, 11:59 AM
  #40
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Do fans want to rebuild like Edmonton Chicago pittsburg be terrible for 6 yrs like oilers get the top 3 picks in the draft thats not the habs way.Maybe its the best solution but I don't like it
This is not a rebuild thread.

That being said, we could wind up in 15th whether we want to or not. That's what happened last season.

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01-21-2013, 01:46 PM
  #41
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Seguin, Giroux, countless centers started their career on the wings. Galchenyuk isn't Crosby or Taveres, he's not ready to immediately thrive as a C.
Wow, I always agree with you. But now.. How can you know that ? He played one game and 0 at center ?

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01-21-2013, 01:51 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by izzy75 View Post
Listening to the pundits this morning... everyone agrees on one thing:

We don't have a good team.
Yup let's analyse the team for a week and make panic moves next weekend. Maybe we can salavage a 2nd and 3rd rounder for Pacioretty and Gorges since they suck.


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01-21-2013, 02:22 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Yup let's analyse the team for a week and make panic moves next weekend. Maybe we can salavage a 2nd and 3rd rounder for Pacioretty and Gorges since they suck.

The only reason you should be shaking your head is because you're welching on your bet with me.

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Old
01-21-2013, 02:48 PM
  #44
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Given the present roster the Habs couldn't reach the finals this year or next no matter how many deals Bergevin is able to complete. They will have to take their lumps for the time being. If they exceed expectations n the next year or two it wouldn't be by much. It would be quixotic to try to bring in a player of Rick Nash's caliber because their base is so weak that it wouldn't greatly improve their standing even if they could.

I disagree with the notion of violently disrupting the team because it would more likely result in a shambles than in a contender. Instead, I favor an incremental buildup in which the return for departing players would be either young players of predictable future value or capable veterans who aren't going to be released in a year or two.

Bergevin should not confine his acquisitions to draft picks. Sometimes it's defensible to give up prospects even when you're not among the elite. Sam Pollock did this more than once. If he hadn't consummated a three-for-one trade with Detroit to get Frank Mahovlich the Habs couldn't have won Cups in 1971 and 1973 because, despite Ken Dryden, the Bruins were too much better. (Mahovlich set a playoff points record in 1971). True, the big M jumped ship after the 1973 Cup win while Detroit retained the talented young players they acquired (notably Mickey Redmond, a future 50 goal scorer) but no Hab fan could reasonably complain. Interestingly, Detroit accomplished very little in the 1970s with their surgical tank while the Habs profited immensely by doing the exact opposite. By the way, Pollock didn't trade Henri Richard, Jean Béliveau, Emile Bouchard, or John Ferguson in the 1970s but allowed them to retire gracefully.


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01-21-2013, 03:00 PM
  #45
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The Canadiens are a bubble team, with slight chances of getting in the playoffs. Even if they do, they won't go very far because of the lack of top-end skills and a very unbalanced defense.

I just hope that Price, Subban and Galchenyuk can be a solid enough base to build around them for the future.

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01-21-2013, 03:15 PM
  #46
Teufelsdreck
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Originally Posted by Uber Coca View Post
The Canadiens are a bubble team, with slight chances of getting in the playoffs. Even if they do, they won't go very far because of the lack of top-end skills and a very unbalanced defense.

I just hope that Price, Subban and Galchenyuk can be a solid enough base to build around them for the future.
I would add Pacioretty to that solid base.

Given that the Habs have promising prospects, three second round picks in the 2013 draft, and a likely very high pick in the first round, they'll be more than a bubble team in 2-3 years even if they don't trade away their better veterans for additional picks.

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01-21-2013, 03:17 PM
  #47
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I think that Montreal should be building for the future. Right now, I don't really see the current team having any type of significant success. I am usually an optimist but thats just how I feel. I hope I am wrong though.

On the other hand, what I do see is a great opportunity for Habs management to build a future team around Price, Subban, Pacioretty and Galchenyuk. These 4 players are a good start in developing a strong core to move forward with. They also have young players and prospects like Eller, Emelin, Gallagher, Tinordi, Beaulieu, Collberg and Hudon, that can hopefully continue to develop and become solid NHL players (I guess Eller and Emelin already have). With this said, I think if the Habs are going to be successful, it will be 3-4 years in the future. That gives them time to either draft, develop or aquire other players of similar age groups to the guys mentioned above.

If the Habs are going to focus on the future (which I hope they do), they have a great vetern presence on the team with good role models to help make this transition more smoothly. Its great to see guys like Moen, Prust, Plekanec, Gionta and Cole on the team because they are all respectful players, with good work ethic and level heads. They will really help our younger players mature.

In the end, I don't see them doing too well this year. Fortunately for us, if the Habs season is a failure, chances are they will have a pretty good draft pick letting them potentially add another key player to their young core.

The Habs have a great opportunity here to maybe not rebuild, but just re-assess their objectives and longterm goals.


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01-21-2013, 03:28 PM
  #48
Uber Coca
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
I would add Pacioretty to that solid base.

Given that the Habs have promising prospects, three second round picks in the 2013 draft, and a likely very high pick in the first round, they'll be more than a bubble team in 2-3 years even if they don't trade away their better veterans for additional picks.
Pacioretty is not a solid base IMO. While a good player, I don't think we can rely on him to carry the offense. He's still a key piece of this team's success like Gorges is on defense. Adding a franchise center, something we've been missing forever, should provide some steadiness to this team.

The 3 draft picks are interesting since Timmins has been excellent in this round the last couple of years. Let's hope we'll be more than a bubble team in 2 or 3 years... Drafting Seth Jones would certainly help that

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01-21-2013, 03:45 PM
  #49
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We aren't a contender now, and we aren't a contender in the future assuming no new significant assets come in. As for a playoff bound team? Not today but probably in the future.
We are good at G though we should look into drafting another G, not necessarily as a replacement but considering we have no one past Price...
We have good depth at D but considering Markov is getting older, and his injury concerns, we probably are in need of looking for another 1st pairing D to go with Subban (or solid 2nd pairing D).
We need lots of help on wing. Patches is in my mind the only 1st line winger we have for the future. We have some 2nd line winger potential but a whole lot of 3rd/4rth line winger depth. Not bad per say but we do need more 1st line potential and solid 2nd line potential.
Pleks in my mind is a 2nd line C. As is DD on a good team. One has to go or DD play wing. Either way Gally is currently sitting in as future 1st line C...which is never a guarantee. Thus we still need to draft possible 1st line C's in the case where Gally doesn't become what we all hope he becomes.
All in all, G and D are decent for the future though some help would be good.
3rd line and 4rth line F is solid.
1st and 2nd line F's on the other hands needs quite a bit of work. Specially in the wings department and a 1st line C if Gally doesn't work out.

So what is our prospect for the now and future?
We will suck or at best be a bubble team assuming we don't add anyone significant. I.e. mediocre at best, horrible at worst. Though horrible at worst is probably the only way we can become better and get those assets we need. And no, I don't believe in tanking but we do need those high 1st round picks or some smuck to give us what we need via trade.

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01-21-2013, 03:46 PM
  #50
Teufelsdreck
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Pacioretty is not a solid base IMO. While a good player, I don't think we can rely on him to carry the offense. He's still a key piece of this team's success like Gorges is on defense. Adding a franchise center, something we've been missing forever, should provide some steadiness to this team.

The 3 draft picks are interesting since Timmins has been excellent in this round the last couple of years. Let's hope we'll be more than a bubble team in 2 or 3 years... Drafting Seth Jones would certainly help that
Take away Cole and Pacioretty is the only Hab 30-goal scorer, and he's young and probably still improving.

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