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All Encompassing Tanking/Rebuilding/Selling at Deadline Thread 2.0

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Old
01-20-2013, 04:29 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Yup, and after all these signing, chances are they'll all be gone before NYR wins another cup

(close to half his team is UFA after 13/14, including both goalies)
Yeah, let's just keep on believing that we're closer to being contenders than they are.

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01-20-2013, 04:30 PM
  #177
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what are the picks this draft?

which 2n rounders do we have of other teams?

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01-20-2013, 04:32 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Dharvey33 View Post
I love hf Boards season is one game old and there is more thread about tanking the season, trading everyone, that there is about rational hockey talk.

Take it easy guys well start talking about tanking when we are out of the playoffs picture, i still expect the habs to finish 7th but Pk has to sign fast.
but tanking would be better than just making the playoffs to me. im sick of seeing this team just make or miss the playoffs year after year. personally i liked last year as much as those 6-12th place years.

i want to see a good team again and if no one good wants to sign in monreal then rebuild by being bad until the nhl smartens up and stops rewarding sucking and gives the top picks to teams that try.

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Old
01-20-2013, 04:36 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Pine View Post
He also admitted his mistakes and fixed them. Found a sucker for Gomez, buried Redden.
Had he not found a sucker for Gomez where do you think the Rangers would be right now? I doubt the owners would have been happy buying out both Gomez and Redden.

The point is it is nice to say "trade old man + acquire young superstars = Stanley cup!" but in reality it doesn't work that way and there is many routes to a cup that don't involve "scorched earth" tactics.

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Originally Posted by Nedved View Post
what are the picks this draft?

which 2n rounders do we have of other teams?
Ours, Calgarys and Nashvilles.

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Old
01-20-2013, 04:49 PM
  #180
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Yeah, let's just keep on believing that we're closer to being contenders than they are.
if that's what you think, good on you.

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Old
01-20-2013, 05:06 PM
  #181
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I'm happy as long as we don't make a trade in panic to improve our team, I don't know whether that counts as "tanking" or not.

Just play the team we have and when the deadline approaches see where we stand.

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01-20-2013, 05:07 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
I also agree that we can be competitive by next season as well, assuming management plays it smart and employs some intelligent asset management. I never want to see my habs lose, but the shortened season and seeing for my very eyes how exciting a kid like Galchenyuk can be will make the losses sting a bit less.

I think a lot of us knew that with the signings of Prust, Armstrong and Bouillon that management isn't really expecting to 'go for it' this year. And I'm thankful for that. The only thing worse than narrowly missing the playoffs or getting bumped in the 1st round is doing either of those while giving up future assets.
Would you put yourself in the pro-rebuilding group?

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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Not what I said. They don't carry much value in a trade, but for us, they're all we have.
If they're all we have, we aren't going anywhere. Better to accept this now and do something about it rather than pretending that it's good enough.
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
We have nothing even remotely close to replacing Cole or pleks in the foreseeable future.
So what though... I don't mean this disrespectfully... I mean it sincerely. So what? If we aren't winning does it really matter?
Quote:
Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Sure, deals kabs if you can, we should of never brought him in the first place same with Bourque. I'm a bit sentimental with Markov, would love to see him retire a hab, but if we get offered a blow you away deal, make it. Pleks value can't be replaced easily. Would prefer to have him on our roster than deal him for picks. Gionta, probably could net a decent return, but I don't see much accelerating going on here tbh.
Plecs is a good two way center. That's why he'd get us something of value. Kabs isn't going to do that. Nobody is suggesting that we give Plecs away but if we could get a good prospect then yes we should do it.

A couple of years ago Kyle Turris was available. He'd underperformed but he was a highly ranked prospect. In my opinion that's the kind of guy you take a gamble on. Now Plecs may not have been the return they were looking for (I think he probably wasn't) but I'd have given up Plecs for that kind of prospect.

Maybe it's Forsberg or some other guy that Timmins likes. Plecs isn't going to lead us anywhere though and we're losing without him anyway so we might as well deal him while he still has some value.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
This...
Until the subban fiasco, it seemed MB was well on track for re-building patiently & effectively.

Adding grit/character depth players, locking up key assets long term...

Paid a premium for Prust, but at 2.5m a worthwhile risk to fill a gaping hole in our bottom-6.

Dropping the ball in extending Subban long term ( or getting a massive return in trading him), will set us back big time, and worse, the hole subban leaves will only serve to further pressure management (both in on ice play & in PR) to "do something", which is recipe for blunder
If Subban goes sideways (and I don't think it will) would change everything. We'd be seriously screwed. I'm not too worried about that happening yet though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Here's what I think we *could* get at the deadline:

Tier 1:
Plekanec: A 1st and 2nd and a young player with supportive cast upside, or an advanced prospect.
Markov: Same as Plekanec.
Cole: A 1st.

Tier 2:
Bourque: A 2nd if we're lucky.
Kaberle: A 2nd and a 3rd, like Zidlicky got.
Gionta: A 2nd and a 3rd.

Tier 3:
Bouillon: A 3rd rounder
Nokelainen: A 4th rounder
Budaj: A 4th rounder

Are we going to get *all of that*? No. These are best case scenarios for each individual player, but they're anti-correlated as a whole. There's only so much ice time and power play time to go around in Montreal, so if some of them have maximized trade value, others will have minimized trade value. Finally, there is only so much demand in the trade market. Further, some of these guys will be injured, that's inevitable.

A very satisfactory result would be to sell one player from each tier at the deadline. That would mean maybe 1 or 2 roster spots for rookies next year, and thus 2 or 1 UFA signings.
I think you might be overrating the value of Markov. He'd have to have a spectacular season to fetch something like that. A 1st for him though? I think that's realistic if he has a decent year.
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
I think you've overvalued some here , but it would be a mistake to trade Plek for a pick. If you trade Plek it should be part of a hockey deal that gets you a good forward in return. Sometimes you trade for picks or add them to deals to balance but you have to convert Plekanec into a solid player for the roster.

I've said it elsewhere the availabilily of TP hinges on Eller growing into a 2nd line centre.
I'd rather deal Plecs for a prospect too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Work on your reading skills.

Nobody has suggested that drafting is the problem.

It's quite simple: our drafting is excellent, ergo we should stockpile as many picks as possible.
Dude, you're wasting your time with that guy. All he does is come up with one-liners that have nothing to do with what you're saying and distorts things. Take my advice and put him on ignore. You'll be glad you did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
And here's my problem are we likely to finish in the bottom with Price, Subban, Pacioretty, etc...

Price can drag the team out the basement by himself if he has a good season. It's very hard to tank when you have an elite goaltender
Price is a great goalie, top five in the league. Put him on a strong team and he'd be awesome.

He can keep us in games but he won't lead this team anywhere as it's constructed. We finished in the bottom with both those guys last year and Cole had a career year. Maybe we'll be better this season but odds are we're going to miss again.

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Old
01-20-2013, 05:20 PM
  #183
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This goes to organizational philosophy. They will never give up and trade a bunch of guys for picks like Ottawa did.

They will not do anything to jeopardize sellouts.

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Old
01-20-2013, 05:29 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Nobody is saying not to trade any of our veterans, but having a fire sale and dumping every player over the age of 27 while getting nothing but draft picks back in return will do nothing but make the team unwatchable for the next 3 years.
We might be unwatchable anyway... at least we'd get something out of it.
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Even lotto picks bust.
But they usually don't. Lotto picks usually result in very good players and not uncommonly become superstars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
If we are going to trade someone as important as Plekanec, we should be packaging him with a draft pick for someone like Perry, not trading him for a late 1st rounder that will be lucky to turn into a player half as good. If anything rather than holding on to vets too long this team has a proud record of letting them go for nothing.

Even if it's about clearing cap space, you need to have a target in mind. What the Rangers did with Gomez only made sense because they immediately followed it with some big free agent signings, and Gomez had a far worse contract that anyone on the Habs books besides Gomez.
Dude if the only way you'd deal Plecs is for a guy like Perry then... you can keep dreaming. No way he's going to land an actual superstar.

He might land a potential superstar though in the form of a prospect. That's why dealing for prospects make sense. They are a whole lot easier to trade for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Well, I use Plekanec as an example because I think he's the only vet that could give us a first rounder or high end prospect unless you include Gorges in this discussion. Maybe Cole, but it would be hard to justify trading Cole unless we immediately replace him.
The whole reason Gionta and Cole are expendable is because they are on the decline, and that's exactly the reason their value is limited. I actually think trading Gionta for a pick is a good idea, but we need to start using this pick and the cleared capspace from Gionta and the buyouts to bring in players who can contribute now.
Why?

Why do we have to immediately replace a guy who had a career year at 34 with us finishing 15 out of 15? Why is it important?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Does that make Kostitsyn a rebuild pick? What about Komisarek?
To a lesser extent, yes. They are rebuild picks.

The odds of getting superstars outside the top five though is not good. In fact you have a better chance of getting a superstar with one top five pick than you do with 5 picks outside the top ten. Picks 6-10 usually net you a good player and that's what we got with both those guys.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
I love the Pollock stories, but that was a time when the draft first started, he was the first to realize the potential high picks but nowadays every GM knows that a top pick is worth a lot.
Sure and that's what I said in my post. Nobody can be expected to go out and trade for a 1st overall, it's not going to happen.

But you can go out and deal for picks and prospects. That is absolutely realistic and it's paid off for many teams including us with Gorges and Max. When we've done the opposite however (see Gomez and McD) we've gotten crushed.

You have only look at the Leafs and Islanders for this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Some will some won't. The best of the best will likely develop anyway, guys like Collberg, Gallagher, Beaulieu, Tinordi are more likely to struggle. Why take the chance?

Subban still had Hamrlik, Gill, Spacek, Gorges. He wasn't thrust into the #1 role, he played second pairing until he earned the #1 spot
You take the chance because there's nothing to lose. You take the chance because we've got the best scouting in the league. You take the chance because we're coming off a last place year. You take the chance because its a 48 game season. You take the chance becaues ownership is going to make tons of cash no matter what. You take the chance because it's a deep draft.

Most of all though... you take the chance because it works.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Did you not propose trading Plekanec, Markov, Cole and Gionta? Those are our vets worth a damn besides Gorges, if your only guys over 27 are guys like Moen, you are effectively turning us into the Islanders.
The Islanders finished ahead of us last year... We might come in last again this year whether we do anything to rebuild or not. That's the sad truth...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dharvey33 View Post
I love hf Boards season is one game old and there is more thread about tanking the season, trading everyone, that there is about rational hockey talk.

Take it easy guys well start talking about tanking when we are out of the playoffs picture, i still expect the habs to finish 7th but Pk has to sign fast.
These discussions have been going on for 15 years.

After one game... dude go away.

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Old
01-20-2013, 05:33 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by gusfring View Post
This goes to organizational philosophy. They will never give up and trade a bunch of guys for picks like Ottawa did.

They will not do anything to jeopardize sellouts.
You might be right.

Ownership should see though that we have 334 straight sellouts going for us right now though and we came in 15 out of 15 last season. Fans aren't going anywhere.

If they're smart, they'll recognize that the 'brand' of the Canadiens is based on cups. They'll recognize that they could've made a lot more money over the past 15 years if we'd had taken the time to rebuild at some point and built contending teams.

There's no excuse for fighting for 8th every year with the money we generate.

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01-20-2013, 05:36 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
You might be right.

Ownership should see though that we have 334 straight sellouts going for us right now though and we came in 15 out of 15 last season. Fans aren't going anywhere.

If they're smart, they'll recognize that the 'brand' of the Canadiens is based on cups. They'll recognize that they could've made a lot more money over the past 15 years if we'd had taken the time to rebuild at some point and built contending teams.

There's no excuse for fighting for 8th every year with the money we generate.
This would also include hiring the Best coach, not the best French coach.

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Old
01-20-2013, 05:37 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by gusfring View Post
This would also include hiring the Best coach, not the best French coach.
Well, uh... that's the topic for another thread.

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Old
01-20-2013, 05:40 PM
  #188
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It's one game

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01-20-2013, 05:42 PM
  #189
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A tank thread after 1 game?

FFS

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01-20-2013, 05:53 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Seb View Post
A tank thread after 1 game?

FFS
The original thread was started on 07-26-2012, so no, not only after one game.

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01-20-2013, 05:56 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Seb View Post
A tank thread after 1 game?

FFS
This thread has legs!!

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01-20-2013, 06:08 PM
  #192
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So called fans they say...

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Old
01-20-2013, 06:24 PM
  #193
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It's one game
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seb View Post
A tank thread after 1 game?

FFS
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Powders View Post
So called fans they say...
Reading your posts is like watching lemmings going off a cliff...

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Old
01-20-2013, 06:27 PM
  #194
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there should be three montreal forums. one for eternal optimists, pessimists and realists

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01-20-2013, 06:44 PM
  #195
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there should be three montreal forums. one for eternal optimists, pessimists and realists
It wouldn't help everyone thinks they are the ones being realistic

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01-20-2013, 06:50 PM
  #196
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It wouldn't help everyone thinks they are the ones being realistic
propably. i think i am being realistic but i know i am pessimistic

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Old
01-20-2013, 06:51 PM
  #197
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From another thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
If Columbus drafts high and lands superstars that lead to a cup... Absolutely they will be a rebuild. That hasn't happened for them though partly because they've been terrible with their prospects.

They absolutely ruined Steve Mason and threw Ken Hitchcock under the bus to appease him. THAT's what's wrong with the franchise over there.
With that said, what I see now in Columbus is a team finally making good moves.

After the debacle of the Jeff Carter acquisition, they traded him for Jack Johnson and a 1st, which is a good trade for them (also a good trade for LA). They also dealt Rick Nash for a package that includes Anisimov (young secondary player), Erixon (bluechip prospect) and a 1st rounder. They acquired bluechip dman Ryan Murray in the draft last year, and are a good shot to draft top-6 this year.

Columbus may finally be moving in the right direction. After years of trying to make the playoffs they have a different philosophy, and are now trying to rebuild. They may be one of the elite western conference teams 3 or 4 years down the line. However, much like Edmonton circa 2009, they have several bad contracts that may be unloadable, and thus they may be forced to wait.

And that would be good news. I lived in Columbus for five years. It's fertile ground for a hockey market and it does have some fans, they just need to see a winning team for a few seasons. The Ohio State Buckeyes are king there, they get 101,500 fans a game (yes, 101,000 fans) in attendance and they go 11-1 or 12-0 every year... but I think there's room for another team.

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Old
01-20-2013, 06:55 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by gusfring View Post
This would also include hiring the Best coach, not the best French coach.
Fine but name me at least ONE non French coach that was available and better than Therrien.

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01-20-2013, 07:02 PM
  #199
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Fine but name me at least ONE non French coach that was available and better than Therrien.
whats wrong with hiring a new face. pat burns jean perron and guy carbonneau had success as 1st year coaches in montreal

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01-20-2013, 08:18 PM
  #200
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From another thread:



With that said, what I see now in Columbus is a team finally making good moves.

After the debacle of the Jeff Carter acquisition, they traded him for Jack Johnson and a 1st, which is a good trade for them (also a good trade for LA). They also dealt Rick Nash for a package that includes Anisimov (young secondary player), Erixon (bluechip prospect) and a 1st rounder. They acquired bluechip dman Ryan Murray in the draft last year, and are a good shot to draft top-6 this year.

Columbus may finally be moving in the right direction. After years of trying to make the playoffs they have a different philosophy, and are now trying to rebuild. They may be one of the elite western conference teams 3 or 4 years down the line. However, much like Edmonton circa 2009, they have several bad contracts that may be unloadable, and thus they may be forced to wait.

And that would be good news. I lived in Columbus for five years. It's fertile ground for a hockey market and it does have some fans, they just need to see a winning team for a few seasons. The Ohio State Buckeyes are king there, they get 101,500 fans a game (yes, 101,000 fans) in attendance and they go 11-1 or 12-0 every year... but I think there's room for another team.
The Carter trade was brutal for Columbus. Johnson pretty much has negative value (he literally can't play defense on even strength) and that 1st isn't nearly strong enough compensation for a forward of Carter's ilk.

He went on a little hot streak after the trade but little sign he'll be sustainably good.

They probably should have dealt Carter if he wasn't happy with the org, but the return was brutal.

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