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ATD 2013 - Draft Thread I

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01-20-2013, 04:34 PM
  #126
BenchBrawl
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Bourque was also more physical.

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01-20-2013, 04:36 PM
  #127
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Seattle selects, Denis Potvin, D


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01-20-2013, 04:38 PM
  #128
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by Jafar View Post
Bourque was also more physical.
No kidding

I don't think physical play is an end itself; it's just a means to an ends. For example, Bourque's physical game is the only reason I would take him on the PK over Lidstrom (by a very small amount tho).

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01-20-2013, 04:39 PM
  #129
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Holy hell...somebody's going to get a nice value.

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01-20-2013, 04:40 PM
  #130
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Holy hell...somebody's going to get a nice value.
Somewhere Pappyline is crying looking at that top 10...

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01-20-2013, 04:40 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
No kidding

I don't think physical play is an end itself; it's just a means to an ends. For example, Bourque's physical game is the only reason I would take him on the PK over Lidstrom (by a very small amount tho).
Why would physicality outweigh the importance of positioning and smart defensive play on the penalty-kill?

I agree Bourque is certainly more physical but, I don't see that as a detriment to Lidstrom, since he made up for it with such intelligent play.

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01-20-2013, 04:48 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by papershoes View Post
Why would physicality outweigh the importance of positioning and smart defensive play on the penalty-kill?

I agree Bourque is certainly more physical but, I don't see that as a detriment to Lidstrom, since he made up for it with such intelligent play.
Lidstrom's only weakness was defending large forwards in front of the net - he wasn't bad at it, just not as good as some others. He might be the best ever at defending the transition game, which is why I have him slightly above Bourque at even strength defense

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01-20-2013, 05:14 PM
  #133
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Bourque was the guy I was gonna take if not Beliveau. Sorta surprised by the order, but you can't go wrong building a team around any of these guys either.

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01-20-2013, 05:20 PM
  #134
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I think Bourque gives you more options, but if you have a specific idea of what kind of team you want to build, then there are situations where Lidstrom would be the better choice. Good pick, and nice to see him get a bump.

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01-20-2013, 05:21 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
Bourque was the guy I was gonna take if not Beliveau. Sorta surprised by the order, but you can't go wrong building a team around any of these guys either.
Everyone drafted so far is a thoroughbred.

You literally can't go wrong unless you go way off the beaten path.

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Old
01-20-2013, 05:25 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The incessant Lidstrom vs Bourque comparisons on the history board have led me to conclude the following:

Even strength offense: moderate edge Bourque
Even strength defense: slight edge Lidstrom
Even strength overall: slight edge Bourque

Powerplay: even

Penalty kill: very small advantage Bourque because he's tougher in front of the net

Overall, a small but clear edge to Bourque (mainly because of even strength offense). But the difference is small enough where picking Lidstrom first isn't that big a deal.
That's basically how it felt watching it them, in my opinion as well. Not sure the stats (well, I mean, roughly I do, but you know what I mean) but that just about sums up my opinion of them as well.

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01-20-2013, 05:42 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The incessant Lidstrom vs Bourque comparisons on the history board have led me to conclude the following:

Even strength offense: moderate edge Bourque
Even strength defense: slight edge Lidstrom
Even strength overall: slight edge Bourque

Powerplay: even

Penalty kill: very small advantage Bourque because he's tougher in front of the net

Overall, a small but clear edge to Bourque (mainly because of even strength offense). But the difference is small enough where picking Lidstrom first isn't that big a deal.
Yeah, that sounds about right. Bourque is the more well-rounded player, and easier to build around in ATD terms. When I owned Lidstrom, I felt that it was important to get him a physical partner who could bring some offense at even strength. I managed to do that pretty well, but still, it was something I had to consider. Bourque doesn't need any particular quality in his partner, aside from just generally not sucking. I see that as an advantage.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Ray Ray still have a longevity edge on Lids?

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01-20-2013, 05:43 PM
  #138
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I think it's nice that a couple of players are having their chance in the top 10 spotlight , but we shouldn't forget how good some of the guys still available really are.

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01-20-2013, 05:50 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Yeah, that sounds about right. Bourque is the more well-rounded player, and easier to build around in ATD terms. When I owned Lidstrom, I felt that it was important to get him a physical partner who could bring some offense at even strength. I managed to do that pretty well, but still, it was something I had to consider. Bourque doesn't need any particular quality in his partner, aside from just generally not sucking. I see that as an advantage.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Ray Ray still have a longevity edge on Lids?
Bourque struggled at times in the playoffs when teams could key on him in transition, so I think you want to give him more help in transition in the ATD than he had IRL.

Of course you could say the same about Orr to a lesser degree, so it's hardly a damning criticsm.

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01-20-2013, 05:57 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Bourque struggled at times in the playoffs when teams could key on him in transition, so I think you want to give him more help in transition in the ATD than he had IRL.

Of course you could say the same about Orr to a lesser degree, so it's hardly a damning criticsm.
You're talking about the early 80's lunchpail Bruins, right? Giving him more help than he had with that team is not that demanding.

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01-20-2013, 05:57 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Bourque struggled at times in the playoffs when teams could key on him in transition, so I think you want to give him more help in transition in the ATD than he had IRL.

Of course you could say the same about Orr to a lesser degree, so it's hardly a damning criticsm.
It's worth noting that Lidstrom played his entire career with excellent transition forwards.

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01-20-2013, 05:58 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Bourque struggled at times in the playoffs when teams could key on him in transition, so I think you want to give him more help in transition in the ATD than he had IRL.

Of course you could say the same about Orr to a lesser degree, so it's hardly a damning criticsm.
This is why we went Lidstrom... Bourque had to be the center of his offense when playing... no fault of his bit it was he and an undrafted center for many years that ran the Boston offense and the situation developed his style to a great degree. Perhaps he does not do as well if you give him a puck management system with good depth... Lidstrom however is the best I have ever seen at starting things from his end... he'd pinch sure but 99% of the time he was the trailer on those plays after having jumpstarted a beautiful rush.

He was Mr. Consistent... you look at his career and playoff PPG and it was virtually unchanged. Bourque had a drop in those numbers as teams keyed on him in transition as you say.

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Old
01-20-2013, 06:01 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
It's worth noting that Lidstrom played his entire career with excellent transition forwards.
Oh Christ here we go again....

Lidstrom was the common denominator on the Red Wings.

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Old
01-20-2013, 06:02 PM
  #144
BenchBrawl
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Originally Posted by SchultzSquared View Post
He was Mr. Consistent... you look at his career and playoff PPG and it was virtually unchanged. Bourque had a drop in those numbers as teams keyed on him in transition as you say.
Completely agree that Lidstrom was a very consistant player , but to say that in a post when comparing Lidstrom with Bourque is a bit strange considering Bourque finished his career with thirteen 1st all-star teams and six 2nd all-star teams.

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01-20-2013, 06:03 PM
  #145
Hawkey Town 18
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Oh Christ here we go again....

Lidstrom was the common denominator on the Red Wings.
And look how they're doing without him!!!

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01-20-2013, 06:07 PM
  #146
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Cant we have the Bourque vs. Lidström if they faceoff in the playoffs? Or better yet just add this thread to the argument and nothing needs to be said.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...297143&page=14

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01-20-2013, 06:09 PM
  #147
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And look how they're doing without him!!!
tbh tho... they were facing the eventual division winners

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01-20-2013, 06:13 PM
  #148
Nalyd Psycho
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Oh Christ here we go again....

Lidstrom was the common denominator on the Red Wings.
Can you honestly deny what I said?

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Old
01-20-2013, 06:17 PM
  #149
BraveCanadian
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Can you honestly deny what I said?
We'll find out in a season or two.

I do know for a fact that Lidstrom was the common factor on all the successful Detroit teams of the last couple decades.

The forwards changed over a couple of times. Maybe they looked so good partly because of him or the way Detroit was able to train them because of his presence?

Like I said, we'll know more in a couple years.

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01-20-2013, 06:21 PM
  #150
BenchBrawl
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
We'll find out in a season or two.

I do know for a fact that Lidstrom was the common factor on all the successful Detroit teams of the last couple decades.

The forwards changed over a couple of times. Maybe they looked so good partly because of him or the way Detroit was able to train them because of his presence?

Like I said, we'll know more in a couple years.
That's not a really fair way of looking at this , because while I think Lidstrom was the most important piece of the 90/00s Detroit teams , they were some pretty spectacular forwards playing on those teams as well , like xxx and xxx just to name a few.When they were gone other star forwards stepped up with xxx and xxx helping the wings in their prime.The problem with your take on the problem (which is to wait a couple of years and see what happens) is that both xxx and xxx are getting older and past their prime and there's no sign of anybody stepping up and replacing them.


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