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Old
01-20-2013, 03:44 PM
  #251
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Originally Posted by Gulvorn View Post
You also hav to consider that the jackets can trade the picks to move up. So say the jackets do better than expected and get the 9th overall. Kings make playoffs but lose first rd and get 18th overall. Jackets could trade 9th and 18th to try to move up to a top 3.
Its a nice thought but thats not gonna get you a top 3 in pretty much any draft and specially this one. I don't think anyone in the top 6 for sure will be willing to do anything with those picks . I highly doubt anyone will give up what would be asked for them

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01-20-2013, 03:45 PM
  #252
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Fucale looked great in the Top Prospects game idk if he'd be a second rounder but worth a look. As for late picks, I like Domi, Hartman, and other guys that fit our new idea to building this organization.

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01-20-2013, 04:35 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Gulvorn View Post
You also hav to consider that the jackets can trade the picks to move up. So say the jackets do better than expected and get the 9th overall. Kings make playoffs but lose first rd and get 18th overall. Jackets could trade 9th and 18th to try to move up to a top 3.
Everyone always seems to think that, but when is the last time something like that happened?

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01-20-2013, 04:49 PM
  #254
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Its a nice thought but thats not gonna get you a top 3 in pretty much any draft and specially this one. I don't think anyone in the top 6 for sure will be willing to do anything with those picks. I highly doubt anyone will give up what would be asked for them
Its gonna be tough to move up into the top 3 (Barkov, Mackinnon, and Jones), but I think we have enough in the way of assets to move up into the 4-8 range to grab someone like Lindholm, Monahan, Drouin. With 4 picks in the top 60 and a few solid secondary scoring options/defensive prospects (i.e. Brassard/Savard) we might be able to move up without giving up the chance to have two picks in the first round.

Something like Brassard, the 11th and the 25th might be able to grab us the 4th overall. Given that Anisimov and Johansen can already play second line Center, and Boone Jenner is waiting in the wings trading Brassard doesn't cost us that much in terms of offensive production or veteran leadership and gives us even more cap space. Maybe sign a guy like derek roy in the offseason if we need to bring our draft pick along slowly.

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01-20-2013, 04:52 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Sore Loser View Post
Everyone always seems to think that, but when is the last time something like that happened?
The suggested price is probably too light (9th + 18th for 3rd or higher).

The last top-3 picks to be moved was 2010, but that was a future pick from two years prior anyway. In 2003, it was #3, #55, and Mikael Samuelsson for #1 and #73. There were a few others that involved various players and rights.

The last purely draft pick deal involving the top-3 was in 1998, when Nashville traded #3 and #29 for #2 and #85.

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01-20-2013, 04:53 PM
  #256
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This draft is deep enough that the later picks may have more value than usual, but I don't see teams trading out of the top 3 unless they have very specific needs.

Say a team with a lot of young forwards trading the #3 pick (Barkov) for the #9 (defenseman Ryan Pulock) and #18 (goalie Zach Fucale).

The Jackets desperately need top 6 forwards. In that situation, if they could get Shinkaruk and Wennberg with the #9 and #18 picks, should they trade the picks to get Barkov/Drouin/Lindholm/Monahan?

It's more likely that a team with the #3 pick trades down a few picks to like #6 or #7 because they like a player they don't think other teams are going to pick quite as high.

If the Jackets end up with the #1 pick, with Seth Jones getting all the hype now, it might be the best case scenario to be able to trade down to #2 to get their pick of the forwards and pick up some additional assets.

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01-20-2013, 05:05 PM
  #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gulvorn View Post
You also hav to consider that the jackets can trade the picks to move up. So say the jackets do better than expected and get the 9th overall. Kings make playoffs but lose first rd and get 18th overall. Jackets could trade 9th and 18th to try to move up to a top 3.


Tampa Bay had the 10th and 19th picks this past year. Would you have willingly accepted them for the 2nd overall?

For G-d's sake, people. Trading up to the top-3 doesn't happen. The last top-3 pick traded at all was Toronto's 2nd overall in 2010, and not only were no picks were used to "move up" for that one, it's one of the most consistently mocked trade decisions in recent NHL history. Prior to that, the most recent example was the Alexei Yashin trade just under a decade earlier. Both times have involved players that were, at the time, established, productive NHL stars. Do we have any of those to spare? Didn't think so.

Yes, Florida traded down from 1st overall, twice! In 2002 and 2003. Both times they traded down to #3 - i.e. with a team ALREADY IN THE TOP 3. In no case in the last fifteen years or more (I stopped looking after that) has a team from outside the top-3 managed to trade up to a top-3 pick using only other draft picks. Every time, the teams in the top-3 had already been in the top 3; positions had just changed (or, in the case of 1999, a second top-3 pick had been given to a team that was already there).

Assuming top-5 is almost as bad. The last time anybody managed to trade into the top-5 at all was Toronto in 2008, getting #5 in exchange for #7 in a year when the Islanders were bound and determined to trade down multiple times. Most recent after that is 2004 - when WE traded down from #4 to get #8 and #59 in a weak draft.

This "we can trade up to get the draft superstar" madness is sheer idiocy. It is a ridiculous fantasy; the embarrassing hallmark of desperate losing fanbases everywhere. Please, please, for the love of G-d, let's just all put it out of our collective minds as an option right now and never allow it to pollute our thinking ever again.

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01-20-2013, 05:06 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by JacketsFanWest View Post
This draft is deep enough that the later picks may have more value than usual, but I don't see teams trading out of the top 3 unless they have very specific needs.

Say a team with a lot of young forwards trading the #3 pick (Barkov) for the #9 (defenseman Ryan Pulock) and #18 (goalie Zach Fucale).

The Jackets desperately need top 6 forwards. In that situation, if they could get Shinkaruk and Wennberg with the #9 and #18 picks, should they trade the picks to get Barkov/Drouin/Lindholm/Monahan?

It's more likely that a team with the #3 pick trades down a few picks to like #6 or #7 because they like a player they don't think other teams are going to pick quite as high.

If the Jackets end up with the #1 pick, with Seth Jones getting all the hype now, it might be the best case scenario to be able to trade down to #2 to get their pick of the forwards and pick up some additional assets.
I agree with you Id like to get one of Lindholm, Drouin, or Barkov. Trade up, I'm tired of so-so talent that isn't quite elite.

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01-20-2013, 05:14 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Gagnefan924 View Post
I agree with you Id like to get one of Lindholm, Drouin, or Barkov. Trade up, I'm tired of so-so talent that isn't quite elite.
You don't get better actual on-ice talent by making trades to get a marginally higher draft pick for the sake of the draft pick being higher. You get better actual on-ice talent by improving one's scouting, making better decisions, and occasionally trading up a bit to get the guy you really, really want.

Don't go for a slightly-higher-probability gambling game. Research.

Fortunately, I think the CBJ is doing that nowadays - particularly with the amount of front-office experience being added.

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01-20-2013, 05:17 PM
  #260
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i think a big thing is we will be looking to draft guys who fit our system. Obviously, we want more skill, but we are going to want the guy with the best skill who fits our system. Before, I don't think we worried about that and, IMO, that was a big reason we didn't have success. Our players just didn't fit well together.

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01-20-2013, 05:19 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
This "we can trade up to get the draft superstar" madness is sheer idiocy. It is a ridiculous fantasy; the embarrassing hallmark of desperate losing fanbases everywhere. Please, please, for the love of G-d, let's just all put it out of our collective minds as an option right now and never allow it to pollute our thinking ever again.
But I did it in EA Sports NHL 2013 so it is totally possible, and besides, who do you think you are to have rational posts like this. Don't you know this board is reserved for outrage? If I say something can happen, it allows me to get mad at management when it didn't happen. Who cares what the reality is.

So if we don't trade our 3rd, 4th, and 6th round picks for top 3rd overall pick, I'm rioting against management.



Warning, this post requires a working sarcasm detector in order to be read in the correct context. The author of this post, HFBoards, and the Justice League of America are not responsible for any mental anguish caused by the reading of this post without being properly equipped

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01-20-2013, 05:24 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by RDriesenUD View Post
i think a big thing is we will be looking to draft guys who fit our system. Obviously, we want more skill, but we are going to want the guy with the best skill who fits our system. Before, I don't think we worried about that and, IMO, that was a big reason we didn't have success. Our players just didn't fit well together.
Agreed, thats why if we are in the situation with an early pick id love to see Barkov or Lindholm picked. But at the end of the day there is still the matter of actually playing the season and seeing how the draft lottery turns out so before people get too excited of what could be or be so quick to call what other people would like to see sheer idiocy we should kind of wait and see what actually happens.

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01-20-2013, 05:33 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
You don't get better actual on-ice talent by making trades to get a marginally higher draft pick for the sake of the draft pick being higher. You get better actual on-ice talent by improving one's scouting, making better decisions, and occasionally trading up a bit to get the guy you really, really want.

Don't go for a slightly-higher-probability gambling game. Research.

Fortunately, I think the CBJ is doing that nowadays - particularly with the amount of front-office experience being added.
Oh i realize that, I actually have some faith in the brass nowadays. I just hope they think those guys are what they need and do what they can to land them. But hey this isn't a thread to discuss NHL draft prospects or anything.

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01-20-2013, 06:02 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by Gagnefan924 View Post
Oh i realize that, I actually have some faith in the brass nowadays. I just hope they think those guys are what they need and do what they can to land them. But hey this isn't a thread to discuss NHL draft prospects or anything.
It is totally a thread to discuss NHL draft prospects*, and that is what I would suggest discussing - rather than, say, discussing absurd fantasies of draft pick trades that don't happen.

*: yes, I know you were trying to be bitingly sarcastic. It didn't work

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01-20-2013, 06:12 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post


Tampa Bay had the 10th and 19th picks this past year. Would you have willingly accepted them for the 2nd overall?

For G-d's sake, people. Trading up to the top-3 doesn't happen. The last top-3 pick traded at all was Toronto's 2nd overall in 2010, and not only were no picks were used to "move up" for that one, it's one of the most consistently mocked trade decisions in recent NHL history. Prior to that, the most recent example was the Alexei Yashin trade just under a decade earlier. Both times have involved players that were, at the time, established, productive NHL stars. Do we have any of those to spare? Didn't think so.

Yes, Florida traded down from 1st overall, twice! In 2002 and 2003. Both times they traded down to #3 - i.e. with a team ALREADY IN THE TOP 3. In no case in the last fifteen years or more (I stopped looking after that) has a team from outside the top-3 managed to trade up to a top-3 pick using only other draft picks. Every time, the teams in the top-3 had already been in the top 3; positions had just changed (or, in the case of 1999, a second top-3 pick had been given to a team that was already there).

Assuming top-5 is almost as bad. The last time anybody managed to trade into the top-5 at all was Toronto in 2008, getting #5 in exchange for #7 in a year when the Islanders were bound and determined to trade down multiple times. Most recent after that is 2004 - when WE traded down from #4 to get #8 and #59 in a weak draft.

This "we can trade up to get the draft superstar" madness is sheer idiocy. It is a ridiculous fantasy; the embarrassing hallmark of desperate losing fanbases everywhere. Please, please, for the love of G-d, let's just all put it out of our collective minds as an option right now and never allow it to pollute our thinking ever again.
But the other team traded UP. Just sayin'.

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01-20-2013, 06:18 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by EspenK View Post
But the other team traded UP. Just sayin'.
With an idiot GM, in a weak draft. The former is still pending final results, but the latter is decidedly not the case here.

Seriously. It's akin to, say, one of us so-called blind optimists contemplating who we should trade for at the deadline to prep for a run to the SCF.
And, optionally, subsequently getting annoyed with management for not doing it even if we were 15th in the conference at the time.

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01-20-2013, 06:22 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
It is totally a thread to discuss NHL draft prospects*, and that is what I would suggest discussing - rather than, say, discussing absurd fantasies of draft pick trades that don't happen.

*: yes, I know you were trying to be bitingly sarcastic. It didn't work
Or we could change the title to ALLOW all draft related topics so that you wouldn't feel the need to become a mod in training. Personally I think his sarcasm was right on the mark.

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01-20-2013, 06:25 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
Tampa Bay had the 10th and 19th picks this past year. Would you have willingly accepted them for the 2nd overall?
Usually I would agree with you, but the 2013 draft is deeper and it's possible that there's far more competition for the top 5 spots and even top 10 than last year. Teams may feel they can drop down and get the players they want (and for cheaper).

Jones and Drouin are passing MacKinnon on some lists. Barkov had a so-so WJC, but has been lighting up the SM-liiga since getting back. Lindholm is on track to break Nicklas Bäckström's scoring record in the SEL.

Then there's the wildcard Valeri Nichushkin who deserves consideration for the top 5 if he wasn't Russian and could be this draft's Vladimir Tarasenko.

Odds are teams are going to be drafting where they usually aren't drafting if they implode during the shortened season.

There's going to be teams picking off the board (too bad RLR's fave high schooler Tyler Hill injured his knee) and players that there are drastically different opinions on from scouts (like Ristolainen and Hägg) who could go top 10 or drop to the bottom of the first round.

No one would have thought Filip Forsberg and Grigorenko would be available at #11 and #12 last year. I'm guessing in 2013, things will be even crazier, especially if you see more teams going after defensemen or Fucale going in the top 10.

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01-20-2013, 06:52 PM
  #269
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While I agree that we need to scout better and find the diamonds in the rough right now our organizational weakness is true top of the line talent. Guys like Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, Ovechkin, etc are found at the top of the draft. Finding Datsyuks in rounds 2-7 are much rarer than finding a guy like Stamkos in the top 5 picks. I don't want to give up the stable of picks we built, but how many 1st rounders would you give up to get a John Tavares?

IMO, right now we have a good foundation for a team, and getting a guy with with elite skills to grow up in this environment is what we need for our team to move to the next level and become a perennial playoff team. Its no longer that we need a superstar to "save the franchise" though it would be nice. It is that we need elite talent and that is found the vast majority of the time in the top of the 1st round.

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01-20-2013, 07:31 PM
  #270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
It is totally a thread to discuss NHL draft prospects*, and that is what I would suggest discussing - rather than, say, discussing absurd fantasies of draft pick trades that don't happen.

*: yes, I know you were trying to be bitingly sarcastic. It didn't work
Actually I just mentioned names of prospects most of which are probably late draft picks along with some guys who'd it be nice to have. But hey, keep dissecting my posts like I'm some ridiculous wisher. Just trying to start a conversation about some NHL prospects, **** me for trying.

Btw, please show where I proposed a trade, if "trade up" is proposing a trade, that hilarious even for HF standards.

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01-20-2013, 07:38 PM
  #271
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I love how, one win at Nashville has everyone worried that we're not going to secure a high draft pick.

Success!

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01-20-2013, 07:53 PM
  #272
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I love how, one win at Nashville has everyone worried that we're not going to secure a high draft pick.

Success!
QFT. Calm down people

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01-20-2013, 08:45 PM
  #273
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Well I was just saying its possible to move up. How often do teams have 3 first round picks and a decent amount of defensive prospects. Its going to depend on draft day what the depth of the draft looks like.


Not that it matters at this point though since at this rate the jackets are poised for the 1st and 2nd overall picks with the kings and rangers being winless

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01-20-2013, 08:51 PM
  #274
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Well I was just saying its possible to move up. How often do teams have 3 first round picks and a decent amount of defensive prospects. Its going to depend on draft day what the depth of the draft looks like.


Not that it matters at this point though since at this rate the jackets are poised for the 1st and 2nd overall picks with the kings and rangers being winless
You stupid fantasizer you. There's no way we can move up with THREE 1st round draft picks. How dare you even mention this idea.

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01-20-2013, 10:01 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by EspenK View Post
Or we could change the title to ALLOW all draft related topics so that you wouldn't feel the need to become a mod in training. Personally I think his sarcasm was right on the mark.
Okay. I think we should draft Sam Reinhardt with our first draft pick in 2013.

Wait, you mean that's ludicrous and impossible? BUT IT'S A DRAFT RELATED TOPIC, HOW DARE YOU OPPRESS MY PERFECTLY VALID OPINIONS THAT ARE TOTALLY ON TOPIC

i am SO internet suing you, you're going to hear from my internet lawyer!

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Originally Posted by Gagnefan924 View Post
Actually I just mentioned names of prospects most of which are probably late draft picks along with some guys who'd it be nice to have. But hey, keep dissecting my posts like I'm some ridiculous wisher. Just trying to start a conversation about some NHL prospects, **** me for trying.

Btw, please show where I proposed a trade, if "trade up" is proposing a trade, that hilarious even for HF standards.
"Late draft picks"? You were talking about Barkov, Drouin, and Lindholm. That's basically, like, every top-5 pick not named MacKinnon or Jones. Given that the average drafting position of the Blue Jackets is around 5 or 6, those would qualify by historic CBJ organization standards as "high".

* * *
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Well I was just saying its possible to move up.
The point I was trying to make is that, assuming we end up outside of the top-3 or top-5, trading up into that range is so astronomically unlikely as to be absurd. We might as well start arguing about what opponent we hope to draw for the playoffs - it's got a better chance of being relevant to this team.

* * *
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Originally Posted by Gagnefan924 View Post
You stupid fantasizer you. There's no way we can move up with THREE 1st round draft picks. How dare you even mention this idea.
The objection was about moving up, with mid-round draft picks, to the top three. To the TOP THREE.

Do you also think it ludicrous that folks might get mocked for suggesting we trade Jared Boll and Derek Dorsett for Sidney Crosby?

NUANCE, ************, DO YOU SPEAK IT

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