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P.K Subban Thread 4.0 - Still Unsigned Edition

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01-20-2013, 09:31 PM
  #426
onebighockeyfan
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
PK has proven himself with two years of excellence. He played well in the 2009-2010 playoffs and helped us get past Washington and Pittsburgh. He was our no. 2 dman in 2010-2011 when we were 6th in the conference, and our no. 1 dman in 2011-2012 when we were last.

He is a top-40 dman (conservatively) in the NHL, good in all situations, and is at worst a no. 2 dman on a great team.

The only PK busts at this point is if he has multiple severe injuries. That could happen but it could happen just as well to any player.

Bergevin should show respect.
Bergevin did not show PK respect by not giving him whatever he asked? Come on!

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01-20-2013, 09:35 PM
  #427
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Precisely why he's probably not asking for 6M.
Nobody knows that. It's probably fair to assume that PK is not unsigned because he asked for 3 million.

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01-20-2013, 09:36 PM
  #428
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Precisely why he's probably not asking for 6M.
What do you think would be unreasonable for PK to ask for?

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01-20-2013, 09:36 PM
  #429
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Top 40 dose not get you 6+. Top 12 does.
Who says he is getting or requesting 6+? And there are enough who consider him a top 20 D in this league.

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01-20-2013, 09:39 PM
  #430
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Nobody knows that. It's probably fair to assume that PK is not unsigned because he asked for 3 million.
You're right, we don't know.
On the hot stove they said Bergevin is looking at 2years with a cap hit of just under 3M. So it's fair to assume that PK is not because management isn't offering him a decent enough deal.

Maybe Meehan threw in the idea of a 6M cap hit deal, but I would assume this was a starting point, not the lowest they would go to. In negotiations, you always aim high, eventually it drops until a just middle. If 6M cap hit is that just middle, then what's the high point that they started with 8M? Makes no sense.

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01-20-2013, 09:42 PM
  #431
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Who says he is getting or requesting 6+? And there are enough who consider him a top 20 D in this league.
Top 20 with the fanboys here. Top 30-40 in reality. Top 10 if he continues to progress.

And the 6+ are the only numbers being thrown around, they can be inaccurate.

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01-20-2013, 09:45 PM
  #432
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You're right, we don't know.
On the hot stove they said Bergevin is looking at 2years with a cap hit of just under 3M. So it's fair to assume that PK is not because management isn't offering him a decent enough deal.

Maybe Meehan threw in the idea of a 6M cap hit deal, but I would assume this was a starting point, not the lowest they would go to. In negotiations, you always aim high, eventually it drops until a just middle. If 6M cap hit is that just middle, then what's the high point that they started with 8M? Makes no sense.
I think Bergevin can sweeten up that offer if its accurate. Can't believe they would be stuck that low. If so I can understand the problem.

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01-20-2013, 09:48 PM
  #433
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Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan View Post
Top 20 with the fanboys here. Top 30-40 in reality. Top 10 if he continues to progress.

And the 6+ are the only numbers being thrown around, they can be inaccurate.
Actually, no. One of Subban's main proponents on this board is talks with goalposts, one of my favorite posters and probably one of the least biased guys to come through here in a while. Anyone who follows advanced stats will tell you the same thing. And you forgot to post which reporter confirmed him wanting 6 million.

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01-20-2013, 09:50 PM
  #434
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Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan View Post
I think Bergevin can sweeten up that offer if its accurate. Can't believe they would be stuck that low. If so I can understand the problem.
That's the rumour, 2 years @ 3 million or so, I've heard 2.75 and 3.25. That's why a lot of us are pissed, it's an insult.

I'm against the 2 year bridge contract, but I understand and respect the logic of it. I would offer a long-term deal if I was a GM, but I can respect a GM who wants 2 year bridge contracts.

The issue is that Bergevin wants to underpay Subban. There are legitimate arguments about Subban's abilities, but at this point he is definitely a 4.5 million dollar man minimum if you look around the NHL for comparables or just on this team alone.

You shouldn't insult your players. It's bad management. You shouid particularly not insult your no. 1 dman who is a core building piece.

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01-20-2013, 09:53 PM
  #435
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
You're right, we don't know.
On the hot stove they said Bergevin is looking at 2years with a cap hit of just under 3M. So it's fair to assume that PK is not because management isn't offering him a decent enough deal.

Maybe Meehan threw in the idea of a 6M cap hit deal, but I would assume this was a starting point, not the lowest they would go to. In negotiations, you always aim high, eventually it drops until a just middle. If 6M cap hit is that just middle, then what's the high point that they started with 8M? Makes no sense.
If that's true you can't really blame Subban.

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01-20-2013, 09:53 PM
  #436
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inb4 attitude problems.
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Attitude problems.

EDIT: damn it, overlordz.
Lol, if it weren't for overlords, you would've got me.

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Old
01-20-2013, 09:55 PM
  #437
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
That's the rumour, 2 years @ 3 million or so, I've heard 2.75 and 3.25. That's why a lot of us are pissed, it's an insult.

I'm against the 2 year bridge contract, but I understand and respect the logic of it. I would offer a long-term deal if I was a GM, but I can respect a GM who wants 2 year bridge contracts.

The issue is that Bergevin wants to underpay Subban. There are legitimate arguments about Subban's abilities, but at this point he is definitely a 4.5 million dollar man minimum if you look around the NHL for comparables or just on this team alone.

You shouldn't insult your players. It's bad management. You shouid particularly not insult your no. 1 dman who is a core building piece.
All we hear is rumors from good and bad sources.

I'd like to know the real figures exchanged. I can't see Bergevin offering Subban 2 years and 6 mil with a straight face. If I was Habs GM and offering a real "bridge" contract I'd AT LEAST start at 7-7.5 mil over 2.

On a 2 year deal he may have to go to 10 mil. Unfortunately for MB the ice time and numbers PK put up last year sways the balance heavily in the player's favor.

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01-20-2013, 09:56 PM
  #438
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
That's the rumour, 2 years @ 3 million or so, I've heard 2.75 and 3.25. That's why a lot of us are pissed, it's an insult.

I'm against the 2 year bridge contract, but I understand and respect the logic of it. I would offer a long-term deal if I was a GM, but I can respect a GM who wants 2 year bridge contracts.

The issue is that Bergevin wants to underpay Subban. There are legitimate arguments about Subban's abilities, but at this point he is definitely a 4.5 million dollar man minimum if you look around the NHL for comparables or just on this team alone.

You shouldn't insult your players. It's bad management. You shouid particularly not insult your no. 1 dman who is a core building piece.
So you're saying that the amounts if $ rumored are just rumors yet you claim that MB wants to underpay him? And how is negotiating a multi-million $ contract insulting in any manners?

How is MB insulting PK Subban?

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01-20-2013, 10:02 PM
  #439
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
That's the rumour, 2 years @ 3 million or so, I've heard 2.75 and 3.25. That's why a lot of us are pissed, it's an insult.

I'm against the 2 year bridge contract, but I understand and respect the logic of it. I would offer a long-term deal if I was a GM, but I can respect a GM who wants 2 year bridge contracts.

The issue is that Bergevin wants to underpay Subban. There are legitimate arguments about Subban's abilities, but at this point he is definitely a 4.5 million dollar man minimum if you look around the NHL for comparables or just on this team alone.

You shouldn't insult your players. It's bad management. You shouid particularly not insult your no. 1 dman who is a core building piece.
No offense whatsover to you but it does not matter if you are pissed about an offer to a player. Or any other fan. Or if you are insulted.

You have zero financial obligations regarding the Montreal Canadiens.

Bergevin, on the other hand does have everything resting on his shoulders.

Your value of Subban--irrelevant
Subban's or Mehan's value of Subban--less relevant
Bergevin's value of Subban--relevant

Unfortunately for most, that is how the real world works.

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Old
01-20-2013, 10:05 PM
  #440
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Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan View Post
I think Bergevin can sweeten up that offer if its accurate. Can't believe they would be stuck that low. If so I can understand the problem.
To me, it's the only reason for this ''lock out'' to make sense.
The rumors initially stated that the disagreement was more about the length, rather than the dollars. But I have a hard time believing that. When was the last time someone held out because of length? If they agree on the dollars, they'll usually end up taking the shorter term, perform and then sign a lucrative deal.
So, it makes a heck of a lot more sense that PK isn't signed because they can't see eye to eye on the dollars.
The way I see things is that the point of a bridge contract is to get away with cheap years of good performances from younger players. So I think that's what Bergevin is going for, 2years at a cheap price. Otherwise, if MB was willing to bring the dollars up then I don't see why PK wouldn't take 2years at 4.5-5M, and then sign the long deal.

Makes a lot more sense that he's holding out because management is sending a cheap offer his way, and it's not worth the risk. This guy played upwards of 28min last year. So if he's on the ice for 1/3rd to half of a game, with his reputation and the huge target on his back, with his style (aggressive, blocking shots), then the risk of injuries is definitely there. So I think the $ aren't right, and the term isn't a big issue.
Also, MB is preparing for a drop in cap next year and his team is already close to it. Even more reason why it makes sense that MB is offering low cash.

Meehan has a reputation, but I don't think he's an idiot. I don't think he would tell his client to sit at home because he wants him to become part of the 10 best paid Dmen in the league after 2years in the NHL.

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01-20-2013, 10:06 PM
  #441
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For those who understand the cap much more than I do, if Bergevin signs PK to a 5.5/6 mill per year deal, where does that leave us? I also realize that we can buy out one more player in the summer.
Per Capgeek, Montreal already has about $53M committed to 16 players vs. next year's cap of $64M. Assume most of the $11M difference goes to PK and DD, let's say 5.5 to PK and 3 to DD. That leaves 2.5M with 18 players signed.

One high salary will have to go to fill out the roster with similar players to the UFA's (Colby, Bouillon, Budaj). Two of the group of Kabs/Bourque/Plek/Gionta etc. will have to go for the team to try to acquire any meaningful UFA if that's what they want to do.

But out of the group of older players with big contracts, there isn't one who should stand in the way of keeping PK (or DD for that matter).

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01-20-2013, 10:14 PM
  #442
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No offense whatsover to you but it does not matter if you are pissed about an offer to a player. Or any other fan. Or if you are insulted.

You have zero financial obligations regarding the Montreal Canadiens.

Bergevin, on the other hand does have everything resting on his shoulders.

Your value of Subban--irrelevant
Subban's or Mehan's value of Subban--less relevant
Bergevin's value of Subban--relevant

Unfortunately for most, that is how the real world works.
I'm aware of your slave mentality from the lockout thread.

In the real world, companies need good employees, and better employees often end up simply being paid more. Sure, McDonalds can pay minimum wage to its cashiers... but Facebook needs to pay mid six figures to its software engineers.

Right now Bergevin is entering the season without his second best employee, because he wants to be cheap. He will suffer the real-world consequences: an inferior team and a bad reputation around the NHL.

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01-20-2013, 10:16 PM
  #443
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So you're saying that the amounts if $ rumored are just rumors yet you claim that MB wants to underpay him? And how is negotiating a multi-million $ contract insulting in any manners?

How is MB insulting PK Subban?
When you say you played like a 5M dollar player but your boss says nope, you played half as well as that, it can be insulting.

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01-20-2013, 10:19 PM
  #444
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I'm aware of your slave mentality from the lockout thread.

In the real world, companies need good employees, and better employees often end up simply being paid more. Sure, McDonalds can pay minimum wage to its cashiers... but Facebook needs to pay mid six figures to its software engineers.

Right now Bergevin is entering the season without his second best employee, because he wants to be cheap. He will suffer the real-world consequences: an inferior team and a bad reputation around the NHL.
I agree with you here. But in the interest of keeping our side honest: we don't know who's being low-balled in this negotiation. The biggest flaw in the "just sign already" crowd's argument is that they have no idea what Subban's asking for, or if it's reasonable or not. They just assume that it isn't. Which is dumb.

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01-20-2013, 10:22 PM
  #445
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I'm aware of your slave mentality from the lockout thread.

In the real world, companies need good employees, and better employees often end up simply being paid more. Sure, McDonalds can pay minimum wage to its cashiers... but Facebook needs to pay mid six figures to its software engineers.

Right now Bergevin is entering the season without his second best employee, because he wants to be cheap. He will suffer the real-world consequences: an inferior team and a bad reputation around the NHL.

Not to belabor the point but Bergevin was hired to turn this franchise around. It will take strategic planning in a Cap World to get all of the pieces in place to create a contender.

With that responsibility for managing the Cap and improving the team, Bergevin cannot be hung with a contract that is not in line with HIS perceived value of a player.

In other words, the Habs were a last place team with Subban on the team. The Canadiens can and will move forward with or without PK Subban and Meehan's version of what he is worth.

If one of those Facebook engineers resigns tomorrow, they will be replaced with someone rather quickly. One software engineer does not make Facebook. Nor does one player make a hockey team.

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01-20-2013, 10:24 PM
  #446
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
I agree with you here. But in the interest of keeping our side honest: we don't know who's being low-balled in this negotiation. The biggest flaw in the "just sign already" crowd's argument is that they have no idea what Subban's asking for, or if it's reasonable or not. They just assume that it isn't. Which is dumb.
If Subban is asking for Doughty money then yes, he is unreasonable.

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01-20-2013, 10:25 PM
  #447
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9.5m for 2 years (4.75m/year)
or
35m for 7 years (5m/year) + bonus for each year we make it to the playoffs

Get it done Bergevin

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01-20-2013, 10:27 PM
  #448
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Found this pic....Subban was at the Lakers/Raptors game...lets hope the Montreal media doesnt find out
Why the hell is Subban wearing blue? Is he not proud to be a Montreal Canadien? Trade his ass, I'm sick of this guy. Go play for the leafs you traitor

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01-20-2013, 10:27 PM
  #449
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Actually, no. One of Subban's main proponents on this board is talks with goalposts, one of my favorite posters and probably one of the least biased guys to come through here in a while. Anyone who follows advanced stats will tell you the same thing. And you forgot to post which reporter confirmed him wanting 6 million.
Thanks man.

I wouldn't plug him for being as good as I think he is if I couldn't make a pretty good top to bottom case for it.

There are a bunch of Habs players where the evidence is a bit ambigious.

Is Markov really all that great outside of the PP?
Is Plekanec really a great two-way center or merely a pretty good one that did well in Martin's system?
Is Eller a pontentially good two-way center or just a guy that's really good at carrying the puck?
Is Price really an elite goaltender or merely a good starter?


There are two things I think are all as certain as you can get.
1. Pacioretty is a terrific goal scorer.
2. The Habs are a massively better hockey team with Subban on the ice.

I'm glad he's so under-rated though. The Habs are almost certainly going to be able to get him on contract that pays him less than he's worth.

But they need to get him in the lineup. Habs suck without him.

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01-20-2013, 10:29 PM
  #450
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Not to belabor the point but Bergevin was hired to turn this franchise around. It will take strategic planning in a Cap World to get all of the pieces in place to create a contender.

With that responsibility for managing the Cap and improving the team, Bergevin cannot be hung with a contract that is not in line with HIS perceived value of a player.
If you get to make up what a player's worth, we'd be 10 mil shy of the cap with all our players signed. You don't. A player has to agree to sign. More importantly, during the negotiations, it's important to have a give and take, and input from the player, so they don't just start signing the offer sheets which will be levied towards him, or walk the second he becomes UFA.

You do realize that probably the single most important reason the habs are where they are is because of player retention or lack thereof, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
In other words, the Habs were a last place team with Subban on the team. The Canadiens can and will move forward with or without PK Subban and Meehan's version of what he is worth.

If one of those Facebook engineers resigns tomorrow, they will be replaced with someone rather quickly. One software engineer does not make Facebook. Nor does one player make a hockey team.
You completely missed his point. The less replaceable an employee is, the more he/she is compensated. Those software engineers are replaceable to an extent, but you need to retain them to have a viable product. If facebook treated all their employees like ****, they'd be out of business.

Now, you tell me who's going to replace Subban. I'll wait...

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