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ATD 2013 - Draft Thread I

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Old
01-20-2013, 06:22 PM
  #151
BraveCanadian
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Originally Posted by Jafar View Post
That's not a really fair way of looking at this , because while I think Lidstro mwas the most important piece to the 90/00s Detroit teams , they were some pretty spectacular forwards playing on those teams as well , like **** and **** just to name a few.When they were gone other star forwards stepped up with **** and **** helping the wings in their prime.The problem with your take on the problem (which is to wait a couple of years and see what happens) is that both **** and **** are getting older and past their prime and there's no sign of anybody stepping up and replacing them.
How convenient that happened right when Lidstrom retired, I guess.

You're just proving my point.

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01-20-2013, 06:23 PM
  #152
BenchBrawl
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
How convenient that happened right when Lidstrom retired, I guess.
Or it could be that xxx is 32 years old and that xxx is 34 years old and they both played a lot of hockey in the past few years.

Of course losing one of the best D in the league will hurt any forward , but the fact that they will slow down would've happen with or without Lidstrom retiring.

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01-20-2013, 06:25 PM
  #153
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Wow that's a lot of "undrafted" players....

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Old
01-20-2013, 06:26 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by SchultzSquared View Post
Wow that's a lot of "undrafted" players....
lol true , sorry I was in the heat of my argument and the draft just started , not in full draft mode yet

Fixed.

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Old
01-20-2013, 07:59 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
We'll find out in a season or two.

I do know for a fact that Lidstrom was the common factor on all the successful Detroit teams of the last couple decades.

The forwards changed over a couple of times. Maybe they looked so good partly because of him or the way Detroit was able to train them because of his presence?

Like I said, we'll know more in a couple years.
So basically you are completely ignoring what I said and are saying I'm wrong. Nothing you said had any baring on anything I said.

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01-20-2013, 08:19 PM
  #156
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How convenient that happened right when Lidstrom retired, I guess.

You're just proving my point.
All of Detroit's key players have been not quite as good for the last three years, this isn't something that's just going to kick into gear now. Since their last finals team, they've lost 2 other defensemen from the top 4 of that team without really replacing them, and several other role players are gone too.
I guess it remains to be seen how their season bears out, but I think that if we somehow froze a 39 year old Lidstrom and kept him on the Red Wings forever, they'd still be worse now than they were 3 seasons ago, and even worse this season.

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01-20-2013, 08:33 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Holy hell...somebody's going to get a nice value.
Agreed. This is the first time I've checked the draft thread since Beliveau. Before I checked I thought same old boring draft order. Boy was I wrong. I applaud the teams who picked 7-10 for having the guts to make their own picks and for making the draft more interesting. We're picking third. Sending a list to Johnny Engine, Nalyd Psycho, Jafar, and SchultzSquared.

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Old
01-20-2013, 09:05 PM
  #158
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Was Reds notified? I noticed he was last online a little after 7 ET.

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Old
01-20-2013, 09:54 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
Was Reds notified?
Do it!

It takes a village...

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Old
01-20-2013, 10:53 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
So basically you are completely ignoring what I said and are saying I'm wrong. Nothing you said had any baring on anything I said.
You weren't just bringing up the team argument double standard in every Bourque vs. Lidstrom comparison?

ie. When Bourque struggles it is because his team was too weak and he had too much to do so we excuse it. When Lidstrom succeeds, we give him an asterisk in comparison to Bourque because he had a good team and therefore must have had an easier time.

It has to be one of those two to be a fair comparison.

And I say this as someone who would pick Bourque by a hair.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I've seen a dozen Bourque vs. Lidstrom threads go that way already, so if I misinterpreted that then I apologize.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Engine View Post
All of Detroit's key players have been not quite as good for the last three years, this isn't something that's just going to kick into gear now. Since their last finals team, they've lost 2 other defensemen from the top 4 of that team without really replacing them, and several other role players are gone too.
Yes the team is worse overall as well, but you simply can't be serious that losing a guy who won the Norris two years ago isn't going to be a major factor in their fortunes this year.

Even if it was a close call Norris.

Quote:
I guess it remains to be seen how their season bears out, but I think that if we somehow froze a 39 year old Lidstrom and kept him on the Red Wings forever, they'd still be worse now than they were 3 seasons ago, and even worse this season.
My prediction is they are going to be a much worse team this year than even last year when a 41 year old Lidstrom missed 12 games.

Detroit's rise and decline pretty much exactly mirrors Lidstrom hitting his stride and fading away personally.

He was the common factor across all those contending teams.


Anyways I am still tired of Bourque vs. Lidstrom from the last go around.. someone draft someone!

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01-20-2013, 10:59 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
You weren't just bringing up the team argument double standard in every Bourque vs. Lidstrom comparison?

ie. When Bourque struggles it is because his team was too weak and he had too much to do so we excuse it. When Lidstrom succeeds, we give him an asterisk in comparison to Bourque because he had a good team and therefore must have had an easier time.

It has to be one of those two to be a fair comparison.

And I say this as someone who would pick Bourque by a hair.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I've seen a dozen Bourque vs. Lidstrom threads go that way already, so if I misinterpreted that then I apologize.
No, I was simply stating that Lidstrom had the advantage of never being without centres who excelled at puck carrying,

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01-20-2013, 11:05 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Anyways I am still tired of Bourque vs. Lidstrom from the last go around.. someone draft someone!
Yes, Reds really needs to come save us from the developing Lidstromitis!

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Old
01-20-2013, 11:06 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
No, I was simply stating that Lidstrom had the advantage of never being without centres who excelled at puck carrying,
Sigh.

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Old
01-20-2013, 11:33 PM
  #164
Nalyd Psycho
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Sigh.
What, it's true? I can't name name, but at no point in his career was his teams number one center anything less than very good at carrying the puck. I don't see how this can be disputed.

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Old
01-21-2013, 12:32 AM
  #165
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Yes, Reds really needs to come save us from the developing Lidstromitis!
Agreed. I'm third and after the excitement and unpredictability of picks 7-10 it will really be anti-climatic if I have to wait until until Noon EST Tuesday to make my pick.

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Old
01-21-2013, 04:25 AM
  #166
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I'll take Eddie Shore, D.

I was hoping to get Nick Lidstrom (who is better than Bourque IMHO).

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Old
01-21-2013, 04:54 AM
  #167
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Originally Posted by Reds4Life View Post
I'll take Eddie Shore, D.

I was hoping to get Nick Lidstrom (who is better than Bourque IMHO).
Shore is the first guy who I will be researching. He is such an icon, and yet it is troubling to me how little specific knowledge we have about precisely what he did and did not do in his career. I aim to remedy that problem. Reds, if you're interested, I'll post my findings on Eddie's career in the Dirt thread over the next few weeks.

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Old
01-21-2013, 04:57 AM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Reds4Life View Post
I'll take Eddie Shore, D.

I was hoping to get Nick Lidstrom (who is better than Bourque IMHO).
Damn. I was hoping he'd slip one spot further.


Last edited by MadArcand: 01-21-2013 at 05:03 AM.
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Old
01-21-2013, 05:11 AM
  #169
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The Whalers select a legendary Whaler (obviously):

Bobby Hull, LW


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Old
01-21-2013, 05:13 AM
  #170
TheDevilMadeMe
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Strange to see Bobby going after Stan, but I guess Bobby is pretty hard to build around.

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Old
01-21-2013, 05:18 AM
  #171
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The ATD is a cruel mistress. Being so close and so far from our first choice and my all time favorite player is heartbreaking. The Edmonton Mercurys are proud to select RW Maurice Richard. pming next now.

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Old
01-21-2013, 05:19 AM
  #172
TheDevilMadeMe
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The ATD is a cruel mistress. Being so close and so far from our first choice and my all time favorite player is heartbreaking. The Edmonton Mercurys are proud to select RW Maurice Richard. pming next now.
He's easier to build around than Bobby Hull, IMO. Both were excellent value where they were picked. Seems like the aversion towards building around wingers might have reached epic heights.

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Old
01-21-2013, 05:23 AM
  #173
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He's easier to build around than Bobby Hull, IMO. Both were excellent value where they were picked. Seems like the aversion against building around wingers might have reached epic heights.
And the aversion around starting one's team with a pure offensive player (not named Gretzky or Lemieux). I think this even counts for Eddie Shore, although we shall see if that is justified or not. Seeing Shore and Hull fall out of the top-10 is strange to me.

I actually think it is easier to start building the offense around a winger simply because the center position is so much deeper, but to each his own.

edit: I've got a pretty good idea how I would build around Bobby, but it is unconventional and would not be that easy to pull off in terms of getting the right support personnel. I am curious to see what MadAr has up his sleeve.

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01-21-2013, 05:27 AM
  #174
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The Jim Robson is already looking stacked on defense. Lidström, Bourque and Shore...wow.

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01-21-2013, 05:28 AM
  #175
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
And the aversion around starting one's team with a pure offensive player (not named Gretzky or Lemieux). I think this even counts for Eddie Shore, although we shall see if that is justified or not. Seeing Shore and Hull fall out of the top-10 is strange to me. ...
Perhaps you're correct, but if we had picked 6th we would have taken Shore. I'm not trying to speak for everyone so please don't take my post as disagreeing with you. I'm simply offering one team's opinion.

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