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P.K Subban Thread 4.0 - Still Unsigned Edition

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Old
01-20-2013, 10:29 PM
  #451
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Thanks man.

I wouldn't plug him for being as good as I think he is if I couldn't make a pretty good top to bottom case for it.

There are a bunch of Habs players where the evidence is a bit ambigious.

Is Markov really all that great outside of the PP?
Is Plekanec really a great two-way center or merely a pretty good one that did well in Martin's system?
Is Eller a pontentially good two-way center or just a guy that's really good at carrying the puck?
Is Price really an elite goaltender or merely a good starter?


There are two things I think are all as certain as you can get.
1. Pacioretty is a terrific goal scorer.
2. The Habs are a massively better hockey team with Subban on the ice.

I'm glad he's so under-rated though. The Habs are almost certainly going to be able to get him on contract that pays him less than he's worth.

But they need to get him in the lineup. Habs suck without him.
And this is why I was hoping for a long term contract. It would probably be ridiculously good value today, let alone 4 years from now.

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01-20-2013, 10:30 PM
  #452
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Not to belabor the point but Bergevin was hired to turn this franchise around. It will take strategic planning in a Cap World to get all of the pieces in place to create a contender.

With that responsibility for managing the Cap and improving the team, Bergevin cannot be hung with a contract that is not in line with HIS perceived value of a player.

In other words, the Habs were a last place team with Subban on the team. The Canadiens can and will move forward with or without PK Subban and Meehan's version of what he is worth.

If one of those Facebook engineers resigns tomorrow, they will be replaced with someone rather quickly. One software engineer does not make Facebook. Nor does one player make a hockey team.
Bergevin is the boss, he is of course free to make bad decisions, it is his perogative to be incompetent.

That's the real world, bosses often make bad decisions, they lose good employees, and they fail eventually.

The team can and will eventually do well without Subban. However, without Subban I predict it will need at least three years of tanking before we're back in the playoff race. Molson will lose a lot of money from not getting any home playoff games, far more than he'd lose from paying Subban his market value based on comparables.

Even if the skeptics are right, and Subban is only a no. 2 dman, no. 2 dmans are very hard to get. They rarely make the UFA market, and they're hard to draft. The only good dman the Habs have found on the UFA market in the past decade is Roman Hamrlik -- that's right, just one guy. Since we've had only one success in all that time, I reject your claim we'll easily replace Subban.

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01-20-2013, 10:32 PM
  #453
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Originally Posted by WG View Post
Per Capgeek, Montreal already has about $53M committed to 16 players vs. next year's cap of $64M. Assume most of the $11M difference goes to PK and DD, let's say 5.5 to PK and 3 to DD. That leaves 2.5M with 18 players signed.

One high salary will have to go to fill out the roster with similar players to the UFA's (Colby, Bouillon, Budaj). Two of the group of Kabs/Bourque/Plek/Gionta etc. will have to go for the team to try to acquire any meaningful UFA if that's what they want to do.

But out of the group of older players with big contracts, there isn't one who should stand in the way of keeping PK (or DD for that matter).

To make capgeek's numbers even worse for the Habs it looks like they have Pacioretty's cap hit @ $1,625,000 for next season and beyond and that can't be right.

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01-20-2013, 10:38 PM
  #454
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
If you get to make up what a player's worth, we'd be 10 mil shy of the cap with all our players signed. You don't. A player has to agree to sign. More importantly, during the negotiations, it's important to have a give and take, and input from the player, so they don't just start signing the offer sheets which will be levied towards him, or walk the second he becomes UFA.

You do realize that probably the single most important reason the habs are where they are is because of player retention or lack thereof, right?



You completely missed his point. The less replaceable an employee is, the more he/she is compensated. Those software engineers are replaceable to an extent, but you need to retain them to have a viable product. If facebook treated all their employees like ****, they'd be out of business.

Now, you tell me who's going to replace Subban. I'll wait...
Who said Bergevin is treating "all" his employees like ****?

We are talking about one player who obviously has an over-valued sense of self value. It does not help that Meehan is his agent.

Congrats to you for pulling out the question on "who's going to replace Subban?".......and then the "I'll wait" remark. That ranks right up there with proving what goes on in a locker room.

But you know that.

Bergevin was hired for a reason. That decision is his responsibility.....not mine. I have no financial stake with the Habs. And I could throw 24 names out there and how would it matter?

But you know that as well.

I am simply stating what I stated when I first started posting on this thread. Subban is putting himself above the team. Yes, this team would be better with him on the ice, without question. But he is willing to play hardball without regard to his team that was on the ice.

You may think this is fine. I do not. Regardless of whom, Subban can be replaced.

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01-20-2013, 10:40 PM
  #455
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Not to belabor the point but Bergevin was hired to turn this franchise around. It will take strategic planning in a Cap World to get all of the pieces in place to create a contender.

With that responsibility for managing the Cap and improving the team, Bergevin cannot be hung with a contract that is not in line with HIS perceived value of a player.

In other words, the Habs were a last place team with Subban on the team. The Canadiens can and will move forward with or without PK Subban and Meehan's version of what he is worth.

If one of those Facebook engineers resigns tomorrow, they will be replaced with someone rather quickly. One software engineer does not make Facebook. Nor does one player make a hockey team.
Yes, MB was entrusted with the job to turn this franchise around. So was Gainey, and then Gauthier. It doesn't mean anything.
Also, he is a rookie GM, so we have absolutely nothing to go on. We can only rate his moves here since the start, and really, nothing impressive but in his defense there's so much you can do in one summer with a team tied up already. So, we'll see over the years.
I was hoping for him to get the job, so I'm not knocking on him, just that there's no way to know if what he's doing is good based on previous experience. We'll have to wait and see.

As for the value, that's the most annoying part of not knowing the numbers. If MB is offering PK 4.5-5M then we can say PK's the one in the wrong. If it's closer to just under 3M, then it's MB at fault.
But as I previously mentioned, even if PK is being greedy and asking for more cash than he is worth today, you don't get handcuffed by good players. You gladly pay good players. You get handcuffed when you overpay for guys that don't perform well.
Take Hamrlik as a good example. We had a 5.5M cap hit, probably 1M more than he should have gotten. However, his cap hit never handcuffed us because he actually played well for us. Not 5.5M well, but still was very useful and helped our team.
This would be no different. PK could end up being overpaid, but he'll still be good and help our team a lot.

As for us being a last place team with him, that's the dumbest argument. I guess Tavares isn't worth much then, neither are Eberle, Hall, RNH. Neither was Crosby or Ovechkin when their teams was still part of the league's worse when they were there. This is such a useless comment.

The facebook engineers are easily replaceable. PK on the other hand, there's what, 29 other people in the whole world that can do what he does as well as he does or better?? And chances are they don't do it at a cheap price.

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Old
01-20-2013, 10:42 PM
  #456
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Bergevin is the boss, he is of course free to make bad decisions, it is his perogative to be incompetent.

That's the real world, bosses often make bad decisions, they lose good employees, and they fail eventually.

The team can and will eventually do well without Subban. However, without Subban I predict it will need at least three years of tanking before we're back in the playoff race. Molson will lose a lot of money from not getting any home playoff games, far more than he'd lose from paying Subban his market value based on comparables.

Even if the skeptics are right, and Subban is only a no. 2 dman, no. 2 dmans are very hard to get. They rarely make the UFA market, and they're hard to draft. The only good dman the Habs have found on the UFA market in the past decade is Roman Hamrlik -- that's right, just one guy. Since we've had only one success in all that time, I reject your claim we'll easily replace Subban.
Tanking? Not again.

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Old
01-20-2013, 10:47 PM
  #457
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Tanking? Not again.
Disrespecting your second best player leads to similar results.

Bergevin can't have his cake and it eat too.

If he doesn't want Subban in the lineup, then fine. But then he has to accept we'll be a lottery team for the next 3 years.

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Old
01-20-2013, 10:52 PM
  #458
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Who said Bergevin is treating "all" his employees like ****?

We are talking about one player who obviously has an over-valued sense of self value. It does not help that Meehan is his agent.
Who said that Subban was asking for an unreasonable sum of money? You did. Despite the fact that you have absolutely nothing but conjecture to back that up. You also implied that Bergevin can offer Subban whatever he wants, and that's okay. I'm merely pointing out why that's a stupid perspective to have.

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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Congrats to you for pulling out the question on "who's going to replace Subban?".......and then the "I'll wait" remark. That ranks right up there with proving what goes on in a locker room.

But you know that.
You again implied that Subban was easy to replace. He isn't. So, yet another one of your points was just obliterated. pew pew.

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Bergevin was hired for a reason. That decision is his responsibility.....not mine. I have no financial stake with the Habs. And I could throw 24 names out there and how would it matter?

But you know that as well.
Blahblahblah, I can't think of any names so I'm going to back pedal. GTFO with this.

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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I am simply stating what I stated when I first started posting on this thread. Subban is putting himself above the team. Yes, this team would be better with him on the ice, without question. But he is willing to play hardball without regard to his team that was on the ice.

You may think this is fine. I do not. Regardless of whom, Subban can be replaced.
The reason I have no problem with it is that I don't approach the situation as if Subban is automatically the bad guy. The bottom line is that every player has the right to fight for fair value for his services. This is not putting himself above the team. This is being a rational human being. The horror.

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01-20-2013, 10:52 PM
  #459
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As for us being a last place team with him, that's the dumbest argument. I guess Tavares isn't worth much then, neither are Eberle, Hall, RNH. Neither was Crosby or Ovechkin when their teams was still part of the league's worse when they were there. This is such a useless comment.
You are taking my comment out of context.

What I am trying to say is that PK is comparable to del Zotto in numbers and ability. del Zotto signed a two year $2.5 contract.

He is not their big minutes DMan because he plays on a team that has better defensive depth.

So should we overpay Subban because he is the best DMan (but still comparable to del Zotto in skill) on a team that has a considerably weaker defense?

Or more simply put, do you reward a person greater for being good (not superstar) because of his co-workers ineptitude?

THAT makes little sense to me.

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01-20-2013, 10:57 PM
  #460
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
Who said that Subban was asking for an unreasonable sum of money? You did. Despite the fact that you have absolutely nothing but conjecture to back that up. You also implied that Bergevin can offer Subban whatever he wants, and that's okay. I'm merely pointing out why that's a stupid perspective to have.



You again implied that Subban was easy to replace. He isn't. So, yet another one of your points was just obliterated. pew pew.



Blahblahblah, I can't think of any names so I'm going to back pedal. GTFO with this.



The reason I have no problem with it is that I don't approach the situation as if Subban is automatically the bad guy. The bottom line is that every player has the right to fight for fair value for his services. This is not putting himself above the team. This is being a rational human being. The horror.
Yes, Subban is asking for an unreasonable amount of money. If it were reasonable in the mind of Bergevin, he would have been signed.

What you or I think is reasonable or unreasonable is completely 100% irrelevant.

Congrats again to you for going to the well for a second time regarding the "throw a name out there". Kudos for tenacity.

The horror is that the Habs started the season last night with a woeful defense and Subban was not on the ice. Apparently, his sense of self-worth is still higher than what the GM of the Habs believes it to be with regard to the future of the team........and not the future of PK Subban.

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01-20-2013, 11:03 PM
  #461
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Yes, Subban is asking for an unreasonable amount of money. If it were reasonable in the mind of Bergevin, he would have been signed.

What you or I think is reasonable or unreasonable is completely 100% irrelevant.

Congrats again to you for going to the well for a second time regarding the "throw a name out there". Kudos for tenacity.

The horror is that the Habs started the season last night with a woeful defense and Subban was not on the ice. Apparently, his sense of self-worth is still higher than what the GM of the Habs believes it to be with regard to the future of the team........and not the future of PK Subban.
FYI, officially it is not his team.

He has no responsibilites to the Habs until Bergevin makes a respectful contract offer.

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01-20-2013, 11:07 PM
  #462
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FYI, officially it is not his team.

He has no responsibilites to the Habs until Bergevin makes a respectful contract offer.
Exactly. And that is why he should go find employment elsewhere. PK has made it clear that his actions are not in the best interest of the Montreal Canadiens.

**** him.

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01-20-2013, 11:08 PM
  #463
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Yes, Subban is asking for an unreasonable amount of money. If it were reasonable in the mind of Bergevin, he would have been signed.
It quite simply isn't up to only Bergevin what Subban is worth. That's what you're not getting. There is no need for Subban to sign just any old contract Bergevin throws his way. You're perfectly right that Bergevin gets to decide what Subban is worth to him, but that appraisal ought to reflect some reality to which both subjects are party.

Simply contending that whatever MB offered Subban is reasonable a priori is distilled, unadulterated sophistry.
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What you or I think is reasonable or unreasonable is completely 100% irrelevant.
It's perfectly relevant in deciding who ought to budge, and why. It's perfectly reasonable if we're discussing just who is being reasonable and unreasonable. This "it's irrelevant" crap is just a cop out. This is what people start saying when they know they're losing, and their position is becoming untenable.

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Congrats again to you for going to the well for a second time regarding the "throw a name out there". Kudos for tenacity.
You said he was replaceable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Subban can be replaced.
If you're going to make such claims, I'd love to hear just how you would intend on replacing him. You don't get to brazenly express one opinion, and then when pressed on that opinion, claim it isn't exactly pertinent. Everyone reading this has come to the conclusion that you're wrong on this point.

That's fine that Marc Bergevin doesn't know or doesn't care about that. But it doesn't change the fact that the words being posted by you are incorrect.

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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
The horror is that the Habs started the season last night with a woeful defense and Subban was not on the ice. Apparently, his sense of self-worth is still higher than what the GM of the Habs believes it to be with regard to the future of the team........and not the future of PK Subban.
Yeah, I've addressed why this is retarded already. Twice now in fact.

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01-20-2013, 11:09 PM
  #464
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Exactly. And that is why he should go find employment elsewhere. PK has made it clear that his actions are not in the best interest of the Montreal Canadiens.

**** him.
Reggie Houle, is that you?

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01-20-2013, 11:13 PM
  #465
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Are we still arguing about this? Err...why? Unless I'm mistaken, no one has any real hard facts about the numbers and years either side is asking/refusing so it's all speculation. Who knows who is being unreasonable or who is overvaluing or undervaluing PK's worth. As far as the current state of things, we just don't know so unless someone has information that we don't have, it's rather pointless to blame the current situation on anyone. All we can do as fans is to hope for the best and that this gets resolved quickly.

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01-20-2013, 11:18 PM
  #466
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Are we still arguing about this? Err...why? Unless I'm mistaken, no one has any real hard facts about the numbers and years either side is asking/refusing so it's all speculation. Who knows who is being unreasonable or who is overvaluing or undervaluing PK's worth. As far as the current state of things, we just don't know so unless someone has information that we don't have, it's rather pointless to blame the current situation on anyone. All we can do as fans is to hope for the best and that this gets resolved quickly.
To be honest, the two sides of this debate ought not be "Subban's being unreasonable" and "MB is being unreasonable." The two sides as I see them are "Subban's being unreasonable," and "you don't know that, so shut up."

Montreal loves nothing more than eating its own. It's up to the few rational posters here to make the cannibals at least feel bad about what they're doing.

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01-20-2013, 11:26 PM
  #467
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Because we don't know the numbers there is a lot of speculation, and regardless of supposed super stats, I WATCH the games and I think subban has a much lower hockey IQ than some want to admit. Does he have talent, hell yeah. But talent only gets you so far. Koivu after his knee went wasn't a great skater but he had a lot of hockey IQ. I watch subban and he is one injury away from being a small komisarek.

Markov even with his injuries still plays a complete game and is still our number one d man. Even if some of you don't think so. He played really good last night and I didn't see any telltale dman gaffs that I have seen for 3 years with subban. Some of you may not like it, but positional play is important. You are the same ones that say just let PK do what he wants on the ice. It doesn't work that way. He gets caught out of position a lot and what saves him is his high skill level. He may never take an injury that would drastically change his carrier, but he is more than likely to slow down as he ages. Hockey smarts don't fade compared to physical skill which other than freaks like chelios usually decline with age.

If I had my way, PK 2 years 3.75 good money doesn't handcuff the team and lets him get a huge contract in just 2 more years. Sometimes you have to think of the team too. Anyone remember when Paul Kariya signed for 1 million just so the team he went on would have more money for better players to win the cup. I do and while I don't expect PK to get paid 1 mill, its something to think about. Every .5 million above 3 (to me) is another notch lower on who we can sign or resign down the road.

Do you want to win the cup or have a great defenceman that eats too much cap to allow for a better team. Anyone remember lecavalier? 2 big seasons, monster contract and hasn't done much since(for his pay level, at 5 million vinny would be fine though). In this cap era money management is so much more important. I live close to detroit so I see and hear a lot about their franchise. I despise them more than the leafs because of obnoxious fans who don't even know anyone on the team. BUT they do recognize that the team comes first. Is franzen a 4 million player, NO, he gets that a smaller cap hit lets his team surround him with better players.

Check your ego at the door and play for the cup not the name on the back of your sweater(and whatever self important price tag you attach to your own selfworth). This would have been a chance for PK to show how much he does care about the habs, but instead we all speculate about why this is happening, and he gives fuel to the cherry's(his bad rep) and people with doubts about his actual commitment to the team. Yes the team, not the habs, he loves the habs, but the team he is on.

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01-20-2013, 11:27 PM
  #468
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hey southern hab who's gonna replace pk?we got no one in our system who has the tools pk does.lookin forward to you re response.

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01-20-2013, 11:34 PM
  #469
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Whoever we trade him for. Or he signs to something reasonable. If we hadn't got rid of MacD we wouldn't even be having this conversation. And the gomez cap hit was a big part of the problem, so your answer is to repeat. Well played sir.

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01-20-2013, 11:35 PM
  #470
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Because we don't know the numbers there is a lot of speculation, and regardless of supposed super stats, I WATCH the games and I think subban has a much lower hockey IQ than some want to admit. Does he have talent, hell yeah. But talent only gets you so far. Koivu after his knee went wasn't a great skater but he had a lot of hockey IQ. I watch subban and he is one injury away from being a small komisarek.

Markov even with his injuries still plays a complete game and is still our number one d man. Even if some of you don't think so. He played really good last night and I didn't see any telltale dman gaffs that I have seen for 3 years with subban. Some of you may not like it, but positional play is important. You are the same ones that say just let PK do what he wants on the ice. It doesn't work that way. He gets caught out of position a lot and what saves him is his high skill level. He may never take an injury that would drastically change his carrier, but he is more than likely to slow down as he ages. Hockey smarts don't fade compared to physical skill which other than freaks like chelios usually decline with age.

If I had my way, PK 2 years 3.75 good money doesn't handcuff the team and lets him get a huge contract in just 2 more years. Sometimes you have to think of the team too. Anyone remember when Paul Kariya signed for 1 million just so the team he went on would have more money for better players to win the cup. I do and while I don't expect PK to get paid 1 mill, its something to think about. Every .5 million above 3 (to me) is another notch lower on who we can sign or resign down the road.

Do you want to win the cup or have a great defenceman that eats too much cap to allow for a better team. Anyone remember lecavalier? 2 big seasons, monster contract and hasn't done much since(for his pay level, at 5 million vinny would be fine though). In this cap era money management is so much more important. I live close to detroit so I see and hear a lot about their franchise. I despise them more than the leafs because of obnoxious fans who don't even know anyone on the team. BUT they do recognize that the team comes first. Is franzen a 4 million player, NO, he gets that a smaller gap hit lets his team surround him with better players.

Check your ego at the door and play for the cup not the name on the back of your sweater(and whatever self important price tag you attach to your own selfworth). This would have been a chance for PK to show how much he does care about the habs, but instead we all speculate about why this is happening, and he gives full to the cherry's(his bad rep) and people with doubts about his actual commitment to the team. Yes the team, not the habs, he loves the habs, but the team he is on.
You really believe that Subban has poor hockey iq? Ok, grant it, he's been victim the odd time to a bad decision, but you don't think that was related to experience??

I don't get the whole Komisarek comparison.

Frankly, I think your analysis of the situation is very crap and you're in for a rude awakening in regards to Markov (especially his defensive game ... and good luck to him in the corners).

I'm more worried about Markov getting injured than I am with Subban, btw.

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01-20-2013, 11:38 PM
  #471
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Well, one thing I think most of us can agree on is that without Subban our club is a lottery team for sure.

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01-20-2013, 11:41 PM
  #472
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Well, one thing I think most of us can agree on is that without Subban our club is a lottery team for sure.
yes we finished 15th last year with him....

now having said that i love Pk Subban.... Don Cherry said he is asking too much ....


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01-20-2013, 11:41 PM
  #473
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ottawa View Post
9.5m for 2 years (4.75m/year)
or
35m for 7 years (5m/year) + bonus for each year we make it to the playoffs

Get it done Bergevin
I think the bonus would count against the cap so that's problematic. Other than that I think I'd be happy with either of those offers. If that's what it took to get it done, I think it's reasonable. We might actually do really well with those numbers if PK develops the way we all think he will.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habaneros View Post
yes we finished 15th last year with him....
And we might finish 15th if comes back this year again. Without him though we definitely will.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habaneros View Post
now having said that i love Pk Subban....as Don Cherry said he is asking to much ....
I'm not sure where Cherry's getting his info from. On the Hot Stove the numbers being talked about in terms of what we're offering were stupid.

It's all speculative so I can't argue hard one way or the other. I can only say that without this guy, we're a 15th place team.

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Old
01-20-2013, 11:46 PM
  #474
Doc McKenna
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
You really believe that Subban has poor hockey iq? Ok, grant it, he's been victim the odd time to a bad decision, but you don't think that was related to experience??

I don't get the whole Komisarek comparison.

Frankly, I think your analysis of the situation is very crap and you're in for a rude awakening in regards to Markov (especially his defensive game ... and good luck to him in the corners).

I'm more worried about Markov getting injured than I am with Subban, btw.
Crap or not you even recognize that he has bad decision making. The komisarek comparisons has to do with putting yourself out of poistion at the wrong time. Subban does this often, that is bad hockey IQ or poor positional play, whatever you choose to call it. Markov looked fine in his own end and he was never a physical dman so his injury has done nothing to change his puck moving abilities. Markov is at the end of his career, subban is at the beginning, imjureis could happen, but even if they don't if he doesn't improve his positional play and play within the system he certainly ins't worth what some figures have been thrown around. I can think of 2 dozen Dman that would equal or better PK and none of them were norris candidates.

Ovechkin isn't even a top 10 player now, but is you had asked people about him in his 5th year, nevermind his 3rd, he was projected to be a top 10 player of all time. Subban to me is a top 20-40 dman leaguewide-if he continues to not make as you called it inexperienced mistakes. But I still don't see him as a top 5 Dman ever. I might be wrong but I will admit it.

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Old
01-20-2013, 11:47 PM
  #475
Beendair Donedat
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[QUOTE=SouthernHab;57990019
You may think this is fine. I do not. Regardless of whom, Subban can be replaced.[/QUOTE]

I usually agree with you 100% but I disagree here. We traded Chelios and never replaced him... Roy the same thing. John LeClair. Eric Desjardins. All of these guys were moved and none were replaced.

We lose Subban, we lose the best defenseman we've had since Chelios.

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