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P.K Subban Thread 4.0 - Still Unsigned Edition

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01-20-2013, 11:51 PM
  #476
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Originally Posted by Doc McKenna View Post
Crap or not you even recognize that he has bad decision making. The komisarek comparisons has to do with putting yourself out of poistion at the wrong time. Subban does this often, that is bad hockey IQ or poor positional play, whatever you choose to call it. Markov looked fine in his own end and he was never a physical dman so his injury has done nothing to change his puck moving abilities. Markov is at the end of his career, subban is at the beginning, imjureis could happen, but even if they don't if he doesn't improve his positional play and play within the system he certainly ins't worth what some figures have been thrown around. I can think of 2 dozen Dman that would equal or better PK and none of them were norris candidates.

Ovechkin isn't even a top 10 player now, but is you had asked people about him in his 5th year, nevermind his 3rd, he was projected to be a top 10 player of all time. Subban to me is a top 20-40 dman leaguewide-if he continues to not make as you called it inexperienced mistakes. But I still don't see him as a top 5 Dman ever. I might be wrong but I will admit it.
So if he can be in the top 20 or 30 , what do you believe is the market value of that? Given that there are 30 teams that are in need of a total of 60 top pairing d-men.

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01-20-2013, 11:53 PM
  #477
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Even with PKs return I don't see us being much better than 10th in the east. Last nights problems had less to do with dmen than our forwards not doing much in the leaf end of the rink. I like gally, but he shouldn't be on the wing and likely will be sent back to the sting. I thought his game was very tentative(uncomfortable on the wing) and leave it at that. Our forwards looked awful. I wish pleks the supposed playmaker on our team would pass the puck to an open man once in a while. And you team has little hope when the 4th line and bourque look like your top players.

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01-20-2013, 11:56 PM
  #478
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
So if he can be in the top 20 or 30 , what do you believe is the market value of that? Given that there are 30 teams that are in need of a total of 60 top pairing d-men.
About 5.5-6 million, in two years. He isn't even there yet. He had top minutes last year because we were playing with 4 rookies. Kinda makes a 3rd year look like a vet at that point. St Dennis, Emelin, Weber and Diaz. Oh yeah and Kaberle-who everone hates for having too big a contract.

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01-20-2013, 11:56 PM
  #479
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Originally Posted by Doc McKenna View Post
Check your ego at the door and play for the cup not the name on the back of your sweater(and whatever self important price tag you attach to your own selfworth). This would have been a chance for PK to show how much he does care about the habs, but instead we all speculate about why this is happening, and he gives fuel to the cherry's(his bad rep) and people with doubts about his actual commitment to the team. Yes the team, not the habs, he loves the habs, but the team he is on.
Umm...and without any real hard facts this comment is rather pointless... For all we know he was offered 2mil for 2 yr. If so, should Subban check his ego by the door and play for the team for peanuts? Should Subban show how much he cares for the Habs by playing for free? Hey, what the heck, the teams so damn important, why not EVERYONE play for the Habs for free? I mean, money isn't important right? They shouldn't care about the salary.
I mean, really, unless we know the facts, you really can't say PK should check his ego by the door and show how much he cares to play for the Habs (well, unless you truly believe they should all forget about their salary and play for peanuts....).

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01-20-2013, 11:57 PM
  #480
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
It's all speculative so I can't argue hard one way or the other. I can only say that without this guy, we're a 15th place team.
Ironically enough, the same posters who are saying PK is replaceable are the same ones who are not in favour of a "strategic rebuild."

They are also the same ones who will change their avatars to Jonathan Drouin pictures if we end up drafting him.

...and they'll be the same ones still not in support of a strategic rebuild the year after...

...I need a drink.

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01-20-2013, 11:57 PM
  #481
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Originally Posted by Beendair Donedat View Post
I usually agree with you 100% but I disagree here. We traded Chelios and never replaced him... Roy the same thing. John LeClair. Eric Desjardins. All of these guys were moved and none were replaced.

We lose Subban, we lose the best defenseman we've had since Chelios.
No I think we lost our best dman in the gomez trade but that is for other buried threads.

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01-21-2013, 12:01 AM
  #482
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Originally Posted by pepperMonkey View Post
Umm...and without any real hard facts this comment is rather pointless... For all we know he was offered 2mil for 2 yr. If so, should Subban check his ego by the door and play for the team for peanuts? Should Subban show how much he cares for the Habs by playing for free? Hey, what the heck, the teams so damn important, why not EVERYONE play for the Habs for free? I mean, money isn't important right? They shouldn't care about the salary.
I mean, really, unless we know the facts, you really can't say PK should check his ego by the door and show how much he cares to play for the Habs (well, unless you truly believe they should all forget about their salary and play for peanuts....).
Ok guy, so you are saying he was offered 1 million per, k gotcha. Must be nice to make strawman arguments when you can't come up with a good rebuttal. Or did you read my post at all? I stated he should earn 3.75. Reading comprehension or just too lazy so you make it up as you go.

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01-21-2013, 12:03 AM
  #483
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Well, one thing I think most of us can agree on is that without Subban our club is a lottery team for sure.
Not quite sure if we wouldn't be a lottery team even with Subban. Our offense is...well, not very dominating anyhow. If Markov, Subban (when ever he signs), Emelin, Gorges, Kabs and the rest plays as well as they should play then our D is decent so not too worried. And well, Price is Price. I worry about the offense though. The DD line should be decent this year (ignoring last nights game) but even so, not what I would call a dominating horror inducing line compared to other A+ 1st lines around the league. And Pleks with Gio? Um...Pleks never been great, good but not great...and he does disappear every so often and Gio, well, he's just getting old...so just don't expect too much from that line. So yeah, our top two lines don't exactly induce nightmares to our opponents. So yeah, not sure if we won't be a lottery team regardless of Subban playing or not.

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01-21-2013, 12:07 AM
  #484
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Originally Posted by Doc McKenna View Post
Ok guy, so you are saying he was offered 1 million per, k gotcha. Must be nice to make strawman arguments when you can't come up with a good rebuttal. Or did you read my post at all? I stated he should earn 3.75. Reading comprehension or just too lazy so you make it up as you go.
That's a bold accusation on your part.

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01-21-2013, 12:08 AM
  #485
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Originally Posted by Doc McKenna View Post
Ok guy, so you are saying he was offered 1 million per, k gotcha. Must be nice to make strawman arguments when you can't come up with a good rebuttal. Or did you read my post at all? I stated he should earn 3.75. Reading comprehension or just too lazy so you make it up as you go.
Umm...Errr...you might want to read again. I never said he was offered ANYTHING. I said there is no use taking sides (i.e. Subban is in the wrong etc.) and is pointless when we don't have any hard facts.

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01-21-2013, 12:09 AM
  #486
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
That's a bold accusation on your part.
Clearly too lazy to have read the whole post then. Thanks for clearing that up. And poor comprehension on your part. pepperMonkey said "For all we know he was offered 2mil for 2 yr"


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01-21-2013, 12:11 AM
  #487
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Umm...Errr...you might want to read again. I never said he was offered ANYTHING. I said there is no use taking sides (i.e. Subban is in the wrong etc.) and is pointless when we don't have any hard facts.
YOU "For all we know he was offered 2mil for 2 yr"

And that is also what I had said in my post-that i also stated he was worth 3.75 to me. Which is still good money at 23 years old as the number 2 d given who we have on defence. What we need is a shot and subbans is ok, but wiz or streit are/were much better. WHy don't we have Wiz- we didn't have the cap space to sign him, too much eaten up by other players.

Also as far as his worth, if he was being low balled someone would have given him a 4 million offer sheet, not much for compensation and subban is pretty much worth that. The fact he hasn't signed one could mean he wants to play with the habs, but could also mean he likely isn't being offered less than 3.5 with the habs and its also likely no GM offered him more than 5. Which would show you what other GMs value him at.


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01-21-2013, 12:18 AM
  #488
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Clearly too lazy to have read the whole post then. Thanks for clearing that up.
I've unfortunately read everything you've wrote. Here's why you oughtn't be calling into question other persons' reading comprehension. You're saying that Subban has to play for the front of his jersey, and not the back. He has to check his ego at the door. The implication of that is that he should just sign. The problem is you no idea what was offered to him at all. You have no idea. So it's fine for you to say that he ought to make 3.75, but that contract may not exist for Subban to sign(it happens to be a low-ball offer, btw). In the case that the contract offered to him was lower, or indeed that Subban and his agent see your offer for what it is, is Subban still playing for his "self-worth"? What on earth does that mean, btw? Is that a bad thing? Do you not seek what you're worth in your career?

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01-21-2013, 12:30 AM
  #489
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
I've unfortunately read everything you've wrote. Here's why you oughtn't be calling into question other persons' reading comprehension. You're saying that Subban has to play for the front of his jersey, and not the back. He has to check his ego at the door. The implication of that is that he should just sign. The problem is you no idea what was offered to him at all. You have no idea. So it's fine for you to say that he ought to make 3.75, but that contract may not exist for Subban to sign(it happens to be a low-ball offer, btw). In the case that the contract offered to him was lower, or indeed that Subban and his agent see your offer for what it is, is Subban still playing for his "self-worth"? What on earth does that mean, btw? Is that a bad thing? Do you not seek what you're worth in your career?
No you quoted me about my reading comprehension in regard to him being offered 1 million per, which he clearly would not be.

And no I am not paid what I am worth, most people aren't in REAL life, That is also a strawman argument as there is no comparison of Hockey Players to people that have jobs that do something other than entertain. Do you think you could live on 3.75 million? DO you think the habs wouldn't give him that if that is would agree to 3.75? I don't see almost 4 million as a low ball contract. And you also have no idea what they are offering, what if the habs are offering 5 and he isn't signing? WHat then is your repsonse. My point is, IF he wants huge money he needs to keep in mind that other contracts need to be signed or he will continue to play with weber, diaz st dennis etc. If tinordi looks good for two years and plays well with subban should he also earn 4 million or so. We either go with a lot of good players or a few great players and barely spare parts, cap era reality.


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01-21-2013, 12:44 AM
  #490
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Originally Posted by Doc McKenna View Post
YOU "For all we know he was offered 2mil for 2 yr"
Umm...err, I said, "For all we know", which means we actually "don't" know (what he was offered). Which also means, I didn't actually say he was offered anything...

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01-21-2013, 12:46 AM
  #491
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No you quoted me about my reading comprehension in regard to him being offered 1 million per, which he clearly would not be.
Umm...yeah, and who said he was offered 1 mil?

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01-21-2013, 12:51 AM
  #492
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Not quite sure if we wouldn't be a lottery team even with Subban. Our offense is...well, not very dominating anyhow. If Markov, Subban (when ever he signs), Emelin, Gorges, Kabs and the rest plays as well as they should play then our D is decent so not too worried. And well, Price is Price. I worry about the offense though. The DD line should be decent this year (ignoring last nights game) but even so, not what I would call a dominating horror inducing line compared to other A+ 1st lines around the league. And Pleks with Gio? Um...Pleks never been great, good but not great...and he does disappear every so often and Gio, well, he's just getting old...so just don't expect too much from that line. So yeah, our top two lines don't exactly induce nightmares to our opponents. So yeah, not sure if we won't be a lottery team regardless of Subban playing or not.
I think we're a 2013 lottery team with or without Subban.

However, without Subban we're also a lottery team in 2014 and 2015.

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01-21-2013, 12:53 AM
  #493
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I think we're a 2013 lottery team with or without Subban.

However, without Subban we're also a lottery team in 2014 and 2015.
Lol, I can't say I disagree with you there

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01-21-2013, 12:54 AM
  #494
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you did 2mil/2 yr usually means 1 million per.

We in the context of sports refers to us as the team, not we as in you and I. eg "we looked bad last night", clearly this would mean cole and patches, not doc and monkey.
Semantics aside, no one on this board or or even pundits know what has been offered or asked for. I made the point I believe 3.75 is fair to both the habs and subban. Whoever is farthest away on one side or the other of this number would be the one I would be upset with most. IF the habs offered subban 2 million he would have a reason not to sign, but I also likely think that isn't the case. I also know meehans reputation and he managed to get theo 5 million(almost 10 years ago) after winning the hart trophy, even though he wasn't that good afterwords. As a comparable.

Do I think subban wants 6-8 million, probably not, but would meehan direct him to do so, likely. Remember this isn't just bergevin ans subban, meehan is likely more at fault for the non signing than anyone else.


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01-21-2013, 12:56 AM
  #495
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No Subban vs The Leaves



THREADS we don't like:
''Subban not signed yet'' THREAD.
''Markov injured again'' THREAD.



It's too bad 'cause we were all ooking forward to seeing Subban and Markov on the PP for our Habs. But NHL players today...all about making as much $$$$$$$ as possible (I'm a huuuuuge Subban fan but I'm starting to dislike him...I feel like he's letting the team down and more concerned with $$$$$ and more $$$$$$... ****ing greedy NHL players).
But, I do agree with Kriss E's quote...''If MB is offering PK 4.5-5M then we can say PK's the one in the wrong. If it's closer to just under 3M, then it's MB at fault.'' (imo, if MB is offering under 3mil, then MB is on cocoa puffs!).
Subban might make around 100million dollars (incl. endorsements) in his career...but he couldn't sign on time for the season. Sign him now or don't sign him at all for the rest of the season...I don't want this to drag another week (we'll get another top 3 pick...maybe we'll land Seth Jones...we sure as heck need a Jones).


The positive:
No Subban = maybe another top 3-5 overall pick

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01-21-2013, 12:57 AM
  #496
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
It quite simply isn't up to only Bergevin what Subban is worth. That's what you're not getting. There is no need for Subban to sign just any old contract Bergevin throws his way. You're perfectly right that Bergevin gets to decide what Subban is worth to him, but that appraisal ought to reflect some reality to which both subjects are party.

Simply contending that whatever MB offered Subban is reasonable a priori is distilled, unadulterated sophistry.

You said he was replaceable.


If you're going to make such claims, I'd love to hear just how you would intend on replacing him. You don't get to brazenly express one opinion, and then when pressed on that opinion, claim it isn't exactly pertinent. Everyone reading this has come to the conclusion that you're wrong on this point.
I have said all along that I thought the two sides would settle at three years. But I admit that possibly MB just refuses to do so.

In that case, PK may have to accept a one-year deal, in a pro-rated season, for possibly less than he wants, and then go to arbitration starting next year, when his right to do so kicks in. He won't lose that much over only 48 games, and then he gets his true value after that.

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01-21-2013, 12:57 AM
  #497
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No you quoted me about my reading comprehension in regard to him being offered 1 million per, which he clearly would not be.
I quoted you about your reading comprehension because you clearly did not, nor do you now, comprehend what he wrote.

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Originally Posted by Doc McKenna View Post
And no I am not paid what I am worth, most people aren't in REAL life, That is also a strawman argument as there is no comparison of Hockey Players to people that have jobs that do something other than entertain. Do you think you could live on 3.75 million? DO you think the habs wouldn't give him that if that is would agree to 3.75? I don't see almost 4 million as a low ball contract. And you also have no idea what they are offering, what if the habs are offering 5 and he isn't signing? WHat then is your repsonse. My point is, IF he wants huge money he needs to keep in mind that other contracts need to be signed or he will continue to play with weber, diaz st dennis etc. If tinordi looks good for two years and plays well with subban should he also earn 4 million or so. We either go with a lot of good players or a few great players and barely spare parts, cap era reality.
Okay Mr. Reading Comprehension, what I'm going to do is try to organize this rambling into a coherent thought, and then I'll address it point by point.

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And no I am not paid what I am worth, most people aren't in REAL life
Most people are paid pretty close to market value for what they can do in relation to what every one else can do. Most people feel like they aren't making enough, particularly unskilled labour, or manual labour. Demographics widely affected by the Dunning-Kruger effect. This wouldn't describe you, would it?

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That is also a strawman argument as there is no comparison of Hockey Players to people that have jobs that do something other than entertain. Do you think you could live on 3.75 million? DO you think the habs wouldn't give him that if that is would agree to 3.75? I don't see almost 4 million as a low ball contract.
You don't know what a strawman is. I imagine you just heard that on Hannity, thought it sounded good, and ran with it. I didn't falsely characterize your position and proceed to beat it up, I asked a question about a statement that you made.

Whether I think I could live on 3.75 million, or whether PK would have an amazing standard of living on that salary is irrelevant to the situation. The question is whether he is being paid reasonably with respect to what he's accomplished so far. I think that 3.75 million is low, by about 750 k, to 1.25mill per annum. This is based on the standards established by the market. It's true that Subban doesn't have direct access to the market, but if you push your luck with RFA's, it will backfire on you, sooner or later.

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And you also have no idea what they are offering, what if the habs are offering 5 and he isn't signing? WHat then is your repsonse.
Nor do you. The big difference is that I haven't assumed anything in my position. You have made one of two assumptions: that PK's offer was unreasonable, or that MB's offer was reasonable, and Subban's reaction thereto was unreasonable. If it came out that PK was indeed holding out for Doughty money, I would reevaluate my
position. I wonder what you would do if it came out that PK was indeed being lowballed. Probably some trite ******** about "playing for the team," or other.

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My point is, IF he wants huge money he needs to keep in mind that other contracts need to be signed or he will continue to play with weber, diaz st dennis etc. If tinordi looks good for two years and plays well with subban should he also earn 4 million or so. We either go with a lot of good players or a few great players and barely spare parts, cap era reality.
My point is that you have nothing that even bears the slightest resemblance to evidence that Subban is asking for a contract that would preclude MB being able to make these signings to which you are referring.

...you know, but don't let that stop you.

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01-21-2013, 01:02 AM
  #498
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We lost Ryan MacDonagh from the 2007 draft, are we going to be losing PK Subban as well?

I feel like I'm living in a bad dream. This level of incompetence from management is something else.

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01-21-2013, 01:02 AM
  #499
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you did 2mil/2 yr usually means 1 million per.
Um seriously? I suggest you read my post again. And if you still feel the same, get some sleep because your reading comprehension is a little out of whack currently.

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01-21-2013, 01:02 AM
  #500
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I have said all along that I thought the two sides would settle at three years. But I admit that possibly MB just refuses to do so.

In that case, PK may have to accept a one-year deal, in a pro-rated season, for possibly less than he wants, and then go to arbitration starting next year, when his right to do so kicks in. He won't lose that much over only 48 games, and then he gets his true value after that.
I'm just worried what the future implications of such a scenario would be. I don't know what offers MB has or hasn't made, or what he is, or isn't willing to budge on: but if PK's taking a one year deal it basically would mean that negotiations didn't really happen between the two parties.

The other side of this is that I view hockey players as an investment. I don't believe in buying stock because it went up. PK didn't do what I thought he would last year, and this is an opportunity for MB, IMO. You don't buy a little stock in a company, then when it goes up, buy a lot. You look for capacity for growth. I think MB might be overlooking a big opportunity. Of course, I don't know that for a fact. I'm saying he might be.

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