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Realignment: Did the CBA address this?

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01-19-2013, 04:48 PM
  #1
Retail1LO
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Realignment: Did the CBA address this?

Through all of the CBA talks, did they hammer out the details of realignment, or is Winnipeg just staying in the SE for forever? Was there any discussion of the realignment that was approved by the BOG?

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01-19-2013, 04:50 PM
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I don't understand why they are having such an issue here. Move Columbus to the south, and Winnipeg to the central.

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01-19-2013, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retail1LO View Post
Through all of the CBA talks, did they hammer out the details of realignment, or is Winnipeg just staying in the SE for forever? Was there any discussion of the realignment that was approved by the BOG?
From what I've heard, the topic was never discussed!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CupChamps2011 View Post
I don't understand why they are having such an issue here. Move Columbus to the south, and Winnipeg to the central.
Likely the best thing really (not specifically meaning Columbus), just make the simplest realignment and then wait to do something more broadsweeping when expansion comes down the pipes. Either way though, they truly do need to decide which teams gets put in the East, whether it's Columbus or some other team.

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01-19-2013, 05:26 PM
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I don't think the PA really had an issue with it. They just said no for posturing.

No real point discussing it and the league will probably address it at the next BOG meeting

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01-19-2013, 06:35 PM
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Guess we have some folks who ignored the BOH during the lockout .

The parties pushed alignment to after CBA negotiations.


Realistically - there will be a decision made in the next month or so, and in all likelihood will be incorporated for the 2013-14 schedule.

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01-19-2013, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by CupChamps2011 View Post
I don't understand why they are having such an issue here. Move Columbus to the south, and Winnipeg to the central.
I think Nashville is closer to the other SE teams in totality than Columbus is.

Winnipeg to the Central and Nashville to the SE.

Easy and logical, but then there is the Red Wings who have been whining for a move to the eastern conference for a long long time so it may not end up as we expect.

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01-19-2013, 09:19 PM
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The NHL/NHLPA MOU did explicitly reiterate the terms which gave the NHLPA a say in the matter.

Changes to alignment, scheduling, and playoff structure require amendments to the NHL By-Laws (part of the League Rules) - which arguably cannot be changed w/o the NHLPA's consent.

Quote:
2. League Rules

Players and Clubs will be bound by League Rules applicable to Players. The current League Rules applicable to Players and all amendments thereto shall be available at the office of each Club and shall be sent to the NHLPA. No Player shall be bound by any provision of a League Rule that has not been furnished to the NHLPA in accordance with CBA Article 30.

Players will also be bound by the League’s Playing Rules, a copy of which will also be available at the office of each Club and sent to the NHLPA. Any amendment to the Playing Rules proposed for consideration by the Board of Governors shall be furnished to the NHLPA as soon as reasonably practicable.

“Amendments” to League Rules and Playing Rules affecting the terms or conditions of employment of any Player will continue to require the written consent of the NHLPA, which consent shall not be unreasonably withheld (CBA 30.3)).

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01-20-2013, 12:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizeman View Post
I think Nashville is closer to the other SE teams in totality than Columbus is.

Winnipeg to the Central and Nashville to the SE.

Easy and logical, but then there is the Red Wings who have been whining for a move to the eastern conference for a long long time so it may not end up as we expect.
Only problem is Nashville is in the central time zone. Detroit and Columbus are in the Eastern time zone.

Having a game start at 8 instead of seven, get done at 11 instead of 10 and getting home at midnight instead of 11 probably doesn't seem like that big of a deal but for fans with kids it probably makes a load of difference.

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01-20-2013, 08:55 AM
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I think it'll get settled during the next league meetings and be in place for 2013-2014. It'll be interesting to see if they do a full-blown rebuild or do the simple switch of winnipeg to the Central and 1 of nashville or Columbus to the Southeast.

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01-20-2013, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CupChamps2011 View Post
I don't understand why they are having such an issue here. Move Columbus to the south, and Winnipeg to the central.
Laziness, really. They've worked much faster in the past on this.

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01-20-2013, 10:56 AM
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They should probably figure out the Coyotes ownership situation before announcing which team will be swapping with Winnipeg. They already took away Columbus' All-Star Game. I'd hate for them to announce the Jackets are moving to the East then have to take it back a couple months later.

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01-20-2013, 11:26 AM
  #12
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They should have Winnipeg in the Northwest in my opinion.
My proposal is moving the Jets to the Northwest, moving the Wild to the central, and then moving the Predators to the Southeast Division.

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01-20-2013, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizeman View Post
I think Nashville is closer to the other SE teams in totality than Columbus is.

Winnipeg to the Central and Nashville to the SE.

Easy and logical, but then there is the Red Wings who have been whining for a move to the eastern conference for a long long time so it may not end up as we expect.
Seriously, I still believe the biggest issue is simply that the owners were unable to come up with a sufficiently large enough vote as to which team would be put into the East to replace Winnipeg's position there. They were unable to do that, and their stupidly designed format for trying to do so doesn't have any mechanism that forces them to ultimately make such a decision. Bettman, on the other hand, introduced an alternative plan, one which most owners didn't originally like, but in the end one in which a significant enough majority of owners were able to maintain their stubborn positions and yet still get a modified version of Bettman's idea passed.

The problem still, however, remained that a decision on which team would be put into the East was never made, thus leaving the Eastern Divisions with only 7 teams each. Until the owners are in some way forced to make that decision as to which team will replace Winnipeg in the East, there is still going to be this stalemate. As some have suggested, Winnipeg could feasibly just take a Central Division vacancy, once a team from there is put in the East, and that team could take the SE vacancy. Other teams in the West will argue that they should get that vacancy, but that argument can be postponed to a later date, as Winnipeg will at least be content to take the Central position for now.

The problem truly is, getting the owners to make that decision as to which team gets put in the East!!!

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01-20-2013, 01:22 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CupChamps2011 View Post
They should have Winnipeg in the Northwest in my opinion.
My proposal is moving the Jets to the Northwest, moving the Wild to the central, and then moving the Predators to the Southeast Division.
It's really not that simple. For one, I highly doubt that Colorado wants to be the only American team in the Northwest. Second, Winnipeg would be playing all divisional away games outside their time zone. One of the primary considerations for realignment his been limiting time zone differences within divisions.

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01-20-2013, 03:17 PM
  #15
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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
It's really not that simple. For one, I highly doubt that Colorado wants to be the only American team in the Northwest. Second, Winnipeg would be playing all divisional away games outside their time zone. One of the primary considerations for realignment his been limiting time zone differences within divisions.
Who gives a **** about Colorado? They're 1 vote out of 30. 29 teams will realize that it benefits the league on the aggregate to have all 4 Western Canadian teams in the same division. Give them a few million dollars to shut up if they whine too much about it.

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01-20-2013, 03:57 PM
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ultimately... they need to figure out a way to get Minnesota and Winnipeg in the same division - would be easiest for both teams. Maybe move Vancouver to the Pacific, Dallas to the central, Columbus to the SE and Winnipeg to the NW. This would keep all divisions to two time zones or less.

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01-20-2013, 04:26 PM
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Actually, continuing from and modifying a bit my post above... It was incorrect to say that the inability for the owners to decide which team gets put in the East is the primary problem. Another element is the idea, or possible League rule, that a whole alignment package needs to be done in one fell swoop rather than simply solving a particular alignment issue. Winnipeg by default was put in the SE, but there appears to be this situation in which simply removing Winnipeg from the SE can't be considered; it can't simply be considered to have Winnipeg by default fall into the Central in place of some team (which my above post specifically gives attention to) from the Central which would take Winnipeg's place in the SE. No, that simplistically, for whatever reason, can't be done. The whole package of which team would actually take the Central Division vacancy must also be decided, and if that has ripple effects with other Divisions then those resulting decisions also decided. All of that makes the whole issue far too complicated, too many conflicting possibilities for the owners to reach that magic number of agreement which is needed.

If the owners could simply break the process down into first just getting Winnipeg out of the SE, then that in itself might just be manageable to do.
- If it were voted on for Detroit to be put in the East, the whole remaining Western Conference would probably vote against it. That's likely 14 votes against.
- If it were voted on for Nashville to be put in the East, the whole Eastern Conference (possibly with the exception of Carolina) would vote against it (not liking another Time Zone in their midst), plus Detroit and Columbus (thinking that they rightfully should have that honor). That's likely 16 votes against.
- If it were voted on for Columbus to be put in the East (and specifically in the SE), Detroit would vote against it, the SE teams might vote against it (not wanting another not well-established market in their midst, likely preferring the likes of Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, or Detroit), Nashville might vote against it (though it could probably be persuaded that the East would never accept Nashville), and possibly even Columbus might vote against it (thinking that it might still be better off in the Central than in the SE). That's likely about 6 votes against.

So ultimately, putting Columbus in the Southeast might be a passable vote; IF not for the implications of how the West would be realigned and having to deal with that before anything can be done. Unnecessary obstacle to getting Winnipeg out of the SE, IMO, but that seems to be the reality of the situation.

And now with the 4-Division idea, it just muddies the waters further, because if Minnesota or Dallas (among a couple of other teams) don't get the alignment they want, they'll vote against whatever option and push things towards the 4-Division scenario.


* Hey, if anyone has details to present that contradict what I'm saying, then by all means point them out. I'd personally like not to be stating things on this topic which simply are not true.

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01-20-2013, 04:34 PM
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They will first check if Jamieson can close the deal by january 31rst and if actually has any cash, if not, they will move the Coyotes to Québec City for next season, they will be placed in the east and Winnipeg will be moved back to the west.

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01-20-2013, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitsune View Post
ultimately... they need to figure out a way to get Minnesota and Winnipeg in the same division - would be easiest for both teams. Maybe move Vancouver to the Pacific, Dallas to the central, Columbus to the SE and Winnipeg to the NW. This would keep all divisions to two time zones or less.
That and two conferences of 15 teams is all they need to do.

I don't understand why they want to send the playoff format back to the stone age and have the same teams meet year after year. You'd think the NHL would have learned after they tried to force regular season "rivalries" on everyone after the last lockout. No one wanted to see 8 games against the same divisional opponent. I'm willing to bet that fans will not want to see 2 rounds of divisional opponents in the playoffs either.

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01-20-2013, 11:45 PM
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Why keep the divisions at all? Just go to two conferences/divisions of 15 teams each. Use the schedule to "recreate" the regional rivalries and go from there.

As it is, the divisions don't play much of a role in playoff qualifications, at least in my experience, since each team is competing against every team in the conference for playoffs spots and divisional opponents can never take all available playoff spots. Also, the rivalries in the NHL usually formed prior to the existing divisional structure, as a result of playoff appearances or simply due to local geography.

For example: I live in Ottawa, and the "Battle of Ontario" has NEVER been about securing a playoff spot. It was always a prelude to the playoffs or just a dull thud during the playoffs. I cannot recall a situation, even briefly, where Ottawa or Toronto was in a position to deny each other a playoff appearance.

By using the schedule to recreate the regional rivalries, that allows teams to shift the rivalries as they evolve and change over time.


Last edited by kilroy: 01-20-2013 at 11:53 PM.
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01-21-2013, 01:51 AM
  #21
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The talk of the 4 conference set up makes actually logical sense. the concern is with the east teams of having to travel more than they do now.

then it limits all the east teams to the same amount of travel to go out west. thus it would be done as 2 west coast trips per season.

If they try to keep the current 6 division, 5 team format then they need to do more shifting to tray and manage the logistics.

Some options:

Pacific: Vancouver, SJ, LA, ANA, PHX
Northwest: Calgary, Edmonton, Minnesota, Winnipeg, and Colorado
South: Nashville, Dallas, Carolina, florida, Tampa Bay
Midwest: St Louis, Chicago, Detroit, Columbus, Pittsburgh
Northeast: Buffalo, Montreal, Toronto, Ottawa, and boston
Atlantic: NYR, NYI, NJD, Philly, and Washington

Each conference has a western and eastern component.

You need to put Columbus and Pittsburgh and Minnesota and Winnipeg in the same divisions.

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01-21-2013, 01:57 AM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kilroy View Post
Why keep the divisions at all? Just go to two conferences/divisions of 15 teams each. Use the schedule to "recreate" the regional rivalries and go from there.

As it is, the divisions don't play much of a role in playoff qualifications, at least in my experience, since each team is competing against every team in the conference for playoffs spots and divisional opponents can never take all available playoff spots. Also, the rivalries in the NHL usually formed prior to the existing divisional structure, as a result of playoff appearances or simply due to local geography.

For example: I live in Ottawa, and the "Battle of Ontario" has NEVER been about securing a playoff spot. It was always a prelude to the playoffs or just a dull thud during the playoffs. I cannot recall a situation, even briefly, where Ottawa or Toronto was in a position to deny each other a playoff appearance.

By using the schedule to recreate the regional rivalries, that allows teams to shift the rivalries as they evolve and change over time.
This isnt going to fly.....

The problem is the imbalance between east and west teams. As a result a couple teams among Detroit, Columbus and Nashville are stuck in the west and have much more travel and schedule problems.

the other problem is having a balanced schedule


with 15 teams in one conference plying each 2 times= 30 gmaes
14 teams withing conference playing 4 times= 56 games
total games to play needed is 86 to have a balanced schedule.

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01-21-2013, 08:09 AM
  #23
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How about this:

4 conf. pick 8 teams from each grouping:

North
WPG MIN CHI DET STL TOR OTW HAM MAR MIL KC OMH DEM

South
DAL NAS TB FLO CAR WAS PIT PHI HOU SA AUS OKC TUC NO

East
MTL BOS BUF NYR NYI NJ CLM QUE, HFD, CLE, CIN, IND, LOU

West
LA ANA SJ COL VAN CGY EDM PHX, LV, SLC SEA, OAK, SAC, POR

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01-21-2013, 09:16 AM
  #24
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Originally Posted by CupChamps2011 View Post
I don't understand why they are having such an issue here. Move Columbus to the south, and Winnipeg to the central.
Cause with your "solution" Winnipeg would be in the central division, when Minnesota which is south east of Winnipeg is in the Northwest division.

Plus it ignores the issue of Detroit having an issue with a team moving East that isn' them. Dallas still having an issue with its placement etc etc etc.

If you think there is an easy solution, there isn't, or the legue would have adopted it.

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01-21-2013, 09:43 AM
  #25
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Who gives a **** about Colorado? They're 1 vote out of 30. 29 teams will realize that it benefits the league on the aggregate to have all 4 Western Canadian teams in the same division. Give them a few million dollars to shut up if they whine too much about it.
Winnipeg isn't really west though. It's west of the eastern time zone, but that's about it.

When Winnipeg came into the league, they were with the western Canadian teams. LA was also in a division with Hartford at the time, so...

Winnipeg then got put with the Norris division we all know and love when realignment happened in the early 80's. Only after the Rockies moved to NJ was the league forced to move Winnipeg back with Vancouver, Edmonton, and Calgary. Then, almost as soon as they could, they moved Winnipeg back to the Norris/Central after adding a few expansion teams in the early 90's.

The Eastern Conference and the other conference that spans all 4 time zones are completely different in the issues that each face with potential realignment. Why they both needs to be aligned the same way, when one conference has basically nothing to do with the other, I don't quite understand.

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