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Why were the Red Wings upset in the playoffs so many times?

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Old
01-15-2013, 06:40 PM
  #26
GWOW
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Goaltending...at least between 1992 and 1994

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01-15-2013, 10:24 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
If you consider how many of the teams they lost to went on to win the Cup, it's pretty convincing that they were always THE team to beat in many ways.

I think a lot of people underestimated the 2007 team. Burke said, after the Ducks went on to win, that the series that had him the most worried was the one with the Wings. He said they also were a lot tougher physically than most observers would acknowledge-- and coming from Burke, that's really saying a lot. I don't recall the entire interview now, but the impression I had was he felt the biggest battle the Ducks would face and did face in their Cup win that year was Detroit, so he certainly knew how good they were. It's not surprising then, in retrospect, to see them go back to back for the next two seasons with essentially the same team (adding Stuart in 2008, and noting that the 2007 team lost Kronwall and Schneider (#2 D).
Yeah I remember that as well. From my recollection, he was especially referring to Datsyuk and Zetterberg - and their inability to get thrown off their games when teams played tough/physical. A lot of "skilled" players gets thrown off their game/intimidated when teams are running them, but those two really seemed to feed off it that postseason. That postseason run went a long, long way for Detroit's future success IMO.

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01-15-2013, 10:28 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
2003 - Upset by Ducks
Correction. The Wings were completely and utterly dominated by the entire Ducks roster.

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01-15-2013, 10:53 PM
  #29
Kyle McMahon
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Originally Posted by Dolemite View Post
Correction. The Wings were completely and utterly dominated by the entire Ducks roster.
The Wings outshot the Ducks 171-120 in the four games, all of which were decided by one goal. JS Giguere was the 1st star in 3/4 games, and the 2nd star in the other. To this day, it might be the single best performance I remember watching from a goaltender. I'm not sure what series you were watching.

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01-15-2013, 11:54 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dolemite View Post
Correction. The Wings were completely and utterly dominated by the entire Ducks roster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
The Wings outshot the Ducks 171-120 in the four games, all of which were decided by one goal. JS Giguere was the 1st star in 3/4 games, and the 2nd star in the other. To this day, it might be the single best performance I remember watching from a goaltender. I'm not sure what series you were watching.

That's how I remember it as well. The Wings HAD the puck, and they shot all day and through several overtimes. Not sure the total domination conclusion comes from, Dolemite.

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01-16-2013, 08:02 AM
  #31
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Dolemite has said a lot of dumb things about the Wings over the years, that's just par for the course. I mean, he was predicting the Avs would beat the Wings in 5 games and run over them physically in 2008 when the Wings swept them 4-0 and Franzen broke some records.

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01-16-2013, 09:35 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Buck Aki Berg View Post
1994 - pure BS luck for SJ .. I don't know how they managed to literally come within an inch of appearing in the conference finals, let alone take down Detroit.
yeah, 94 san jose included such garbage players as sergei makarov, igor larionov, sandis ozolinsh, arturs irbe and ulf dahlen

plus a sophomore ray whitney and the great johan garpenlöv

but the maple leafs really weren't a lot deeper which showed in the conference finals

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01-16-2013, 12:22 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
Dolemite has said a lot of dumb things about the Wings over the years, that's just par for the course. I mean, he was predicting the Avs would beat the Wings in 5 games and run over them physically in 2008 when the Wings swept them 4-0 and Franzen broke some records.
Dolemite's a good guy, he did our GDT's in the 2006 playoffs.

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01-18-2013, 06:47 PM
  #34
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Exactly, yet the tone in here seems to indicate that this might be the most unlikely upset of all. While a loss to a Flames team that had Shean freaking Donovan as their third leading scorer wasn't really any big shocker.
Darryl Sutter just has a knack for upsets, eh?

And it was an absolutely amazing season from Kiprusoff. How many players - in any sport - have went from reserve player to elite in one year? Kurt Warner's the only one I can think of right now ...

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01-18-2013, 06:53 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Buck Aki Berg View Post
1992 wasn't really an upset - Detroit had 43 wins that season, so they weren't exactly a juggernaut. To be taken down by the second-place Blackhawks isn't an upset.

1993 is even less of an upset. Detroit only had three more wins all season than Toronto, not to mention they split the season series with three wins and a tie each.

1994 - pure BS luck for SJ .. I don't know how they managed to literally come within an inch of appearing in the conference finals, let alone take down Detroit.

2001 - LA found a way to come back and win game 3 (?), and just rode the momentum the rest of the way. And don't let the seventh-seeding fool you - thew Kings were pretty good that year (hell, if not for a crappy third period in game 7, they could have taken down the eventual-champion Avs in the next round)

2004 - again, Detroit wasn't head and shoulders above Calgary by any means. I wouldn't have favoured Calgary going into that series, but it's not unthinkable that they won.

2006 - see 1994.

Bottom line, with 21 straight playoff appearances, the failures are bound to pile up just as quickly as the successes.
Having 2/3 of the KLM line, even past their prime, is nothing to laugh at. And then there was Osgood's blunder.

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01-18-2013, 11:03 PM
  #36
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Pretty sure ive posted it before but the last half or 3rd of the season whatever it was in 94 the sharks were the thrid best team in the league... I think people forget they got out off to that terrible start like not winning there first 10 or 12 games or some bs? I forget the exact stats.. But remember larionov was injured on and off through out the season. The sharks only won 3...THREE!!! games that whole season with out larionov in the line up. He actually had some MVP votes that year people dont realize how good he was. Larionov was leading the league in play off points IIRC when they got knocked out.

So yea sharks were not THAT bad when they were healthy that year. Also remember in the playoffs as well irbe was playing injured, and ozolinsh actually had a broken hand and wrist(?). Supposedly thats why he didnt take the shot vs the maple leafs right before the garpenlov cross bar. And if you look at his stats I think he had 26 goals that year and not a single goal all of the playoffs and only so many shots.. So just some thought...

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01-19-2013, 07:06 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by the edler View Post
yeah, 94 san jose included such garbage players as sergei makarov, igor larionov, sandis ozolinsh, arturs irbe and ulf dahlen

plus a sophomore ray whitney and the great johan garpenlöv

but the maple leafs really weren't a lot deeper which showed in the conference finals
Fun fact: Bowman actually adviced Constantine on how to use Makarov and Larionov.

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01-20-2013, 11:19 AM
  #38
Big Phil
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Originally Posted by Dolemite View Post
Correction. The Wings were completely and utterly dominated by the entire Ducks roster.
I remember Giguere standing on his head like few goalies have ever done. Not sure I would say the Ducks outplayed the Wings by any stretch of the imagination. Still, however you want to spin it that was an upset no one saw coming.

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01-20-2013, 11:26 AM
  #39
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There was that non-icing call that really messed things up; and the too-many-men noncall for over a minute, iirc.

On a serious note, I don't believe that the Pens could have beaten a healthier Detroit team. Detroit was better in 2009 on paper than 2008. There was that scheduling gaffe where the NHL had said the playoffs would start a week after the last Conference final ended, and then changed their minds. Detroit had about 36 hrs, iirc, between ending with Chicago and starting up the next series. Of course, we always hear about injuries and that both sides play through them, but look at who was injured on the Wings. Lidstrom almost lost a testicle in the previous round and continued to play. Datsyuk missed the first 4 games maybe 5 games (someone can correct me). Hossa was playing with shoulder injury. Rafalski had chronic back pain, which ultimately had him retiring before his contract expired. Cleary had two ripped groin muscles on either side. Those are the ones I remember, but the I think as the series wore on and got tougher, they just ran out of gas. Looking back on it, I'm amazed they got to a game seven. I know Crosby got hurt towards the end, but the loss of Datsyuk would be comparable to the Pens playing at least half the series without Sid, for example.
Not sure I ever saw Datsyuk take over a game or a series the way Crosby did, but oh well. That being said this is what happens when you get into a series of "what ifs" in a scenario. A truly great team still wins. On the flip side what if Malkin doesn't wait until Game 5 of the 2008 final to get a point? Do the Penguins win then? Possibly. But the Wings were better in 2008 which is what a 7 game series is all about. Pittsburgh was a hungry, hungry team in 2009. Fleury was better, Staal was better, Malkin and Crosby were both better and the addition of Kunitz and Guerin helped out a lot. Gonchar was still there and Letang was just breaking out. Let's not forget, this was a stellar Pens team. We can "what if" until the cows come home and it all leads to the same conclusion - "what if" means "didn't"

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01-20-2013, 12:08 PM
  #40
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I remember Giguere standing on his head like few goalies have ever done. Not sure I would say the Ducks outplayed the Wings by any stretch of the imagination. Still, however you want to spin it that was an upset no one saw coming.
Have to agree with this. Ducks didnt dominate anyone but Giguere did. What ducks did however was to work extremely hard with my boy Carney at the helm.

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01-20-2013, 03:58 PM
  #41
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The loss to the Oilers in 2006 wasnt that shocking as the other top seeds in the West (Dallas, Calgary, and Nashville) also lost. It was just one of those underdog years like the 1998 playoffs.

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01-21-2013, 02:33 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Dolemite View Post
Correction. The Wings were completely and utterly dominated by the entire Ducks roster.
That just isn't true, and this is coming from an Anaheim fan. If any team dominated that series it was Detroit. They sent wave after wave into the Anaheim zone, and the Ducks were often back on their heels. Anaheim got out of that series because of some opportunistic scoring, smart defense, but mostly because Giguere was extraordinary between the pipes. If Giguere had been anything less than what he was, the team that was swept would have been Anaheim.

Anaheim was outmatched by Detroit in every area save one.

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01-21-2013, 04:31 AM
  #43
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Just to reiterate what should be clear: playoff hockey is a terribly small sample size, and any team can win any series given that small sample size.

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01-21-2013, 09:50 AM
  #44
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That just isn't true, and this is coming from an Anaheim fan. If any team dominated that series it was Detroit. They sent wave after wave into the Anaheim zone, and the Ducks were often back on their heels. Anaheim got out of that series because of some opportunistic scoring, smart defense, but mostly because Giguere was extraordinary between the pipes. If Giguere had been anything less than what he was, the team that was swept would have been Anaheim.

Anaheim was outmatched by Detroit in every area save one.
That series was the single best display of goaltending over one series I've ever seen in my life.

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01-21-2013, 12:55 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I remember Giguere standing on his head like few goalies have ever done. Not sure I would say the Ducks outplayed the Wings by any stretch of the imagination. Still, however you want to spin it that was an upset no one saw coming.
Except John Buccigross.

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01-21-2013, 01:20 PM
  #46
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Looking back, almost any year Detroit was actually upset the team that upset them made a run to the finals. Calgary may have actually won the cup, the Oilers probably would've if Roloson didnt get hurt, the Ducks rode Giguere to the finals as well.

I dont know if I would call that underachieving, over that period of time though the wings were a team that if you had them to win the cup in a hockey pool you knew you had a chance.

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01-21-2013, 11:47 PM
  #47
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Not sure I ever saw Datsyuk take over a game or a series the way Crosby did, but oh well. That being said this is what happens when you get into a series of "what ifs" in a scenario. A truly great team still wins. On the flip side what if Malkin doesn't wait until Game 5 of the 2008 final to get a point? Do the Penguins win then? Possibly. But the Wings were better in 2008 which is what a 7 game series is all about. Pittsburgh was a hungry, hungry team in 2009. Fleury was better, Staal was better, Malkin and Crosby were both better and the addition of Kunitz and Guerin helped out a lot. Gonchar was still there and Letang was just breaking out. Let's not forget, this was a stellar Pens team. We can "what if" until the cows come home and it all leads to the same conclusion - "what if" means "didn't"
I thought in the series Detroit was down 3-0 to the Sharks and they lost 3rd period game 7, Datsyuk was dominating at a level pretty close to Crosby at his peak.

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01-22-2013, 01:26 AM
  #48
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Except John Buccigross.
i wanted to avoid anaheim, b/c they were one of the better teams in 2nd half, and played well in a 4-1 win over DRW in march, but i did not expect that series to be particularly close.

when fyodorov scored that fluky goal to get game 4 into OT, i still thought DRW had a decent chance to win the series. but then rucchin scored early into OT.


there was a 1-1 tied game vs dallas in midseason in which dallas scored its only goal after a non-call on icing. if that icing call had not been missed, matchups would have been different.

but i don't think that would have changed the result of the playoffs.

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01-22-2013, 02:19 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Not sure I ever saw Datsyuk take over a game or a series the way Crosby did, but oh well. That being said this is what happens when you get into a series of "what ifs" in a scenario. A truly great team still wins. On the flip side what if Malkin doesn't wait until Game 5 of the 2008 final to get a point? Do the Penguins win then? Possibly. But the Wings were better in 2008 which is what a 7 game series is all about. Pittsburgh was a hungry, hungry team in 2009. Fleury was better, Staal was better, Malkin and Crosby were both better and the addition of Kunitz and Guerin helped out a lot. Gonchar was still there and Letang was just breaking out. Let's not forget, this was a stellar Pens team. We can "what if" until the cows come home and it all leads to the same conclusion - "what if" means "didn't"
Pittsburgh's depth guys had to step forward because the Wings completely smothered Crosby; and Malkin was less than Malkin against them. You see, Datsyuk being out helped Malkin. Crosby was shadowed by Zetterberg and Lidstrom was always the defenseman they wanted out on the ice when he was on the ice. Datsyuk was matched against Malkin's line. Well, if Datsyuk was injured, the Wings side of things wasn't nearly as effective.

The two Pens centers (and noting their very young age to boot) did far less against the Wings than in any other series in those two years. Of course everyone tries to shut them down, but in 2008 and 2009, the Wings had the defense and elite two-way players who actually could do it.

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01-22-2013, 12:27 PM
  #50
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Just covering the pre-Cup Wings . . .

Between '92 and '96, Detroit still really hadn't learned how to play "grind it out" playoff style hockey. This was especially evident in '93 and '94. The Wings won the games they could skate and make pretty plays. But when San Jose and Toronto really clamped things down, the Wings tended to start clutching their sticks and trying to force plays too much.

The same thing happened in '95, except the Wings never got the chance to play free-wheeling hockey. By that point, Detroit had learned how to play defensive hockey, but they still weren't really prepared to play *against* defensive hockey. So when New Jersey clamped down with the trap the Wings skated right into it all the harder. Rather than wait for breakdowns, they tried to create them, which resulted in the puck going into their own net more often than not.

In '96 I really think they just choked. They dominated the regular season playing a very aggressive left wing lock, but when the playoffs rolled around they got a little bit tentative, especially at their own blue line where they backed in rather than holding strong. The Blues used this to push the series to 7 games, and Colorado had the super-skilled forwards to run all over the just slightly tentative Wings. And they had Roy for those times when Detroit got their stuff together.

'97 was really the first year the Wings started believing they could win any game and any series, no matter the score, circumstances, or playstyle. When things got tight they were willing to grind them out, and never panicked when they fell behind or when the games tightened up. They were willing to wait for opportunities rather than try to force them, correctly figuring out their skilled guys could win even when the game was reduced to a series of individual mistakes and breakdowns.

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