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All Encompassing Tanking/Rebuilding/Selling at Deadline Thread 2.0

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Old
01-20-2013, 08:21 PM
  #201
Teufelsdreck
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Had he not found a sucker for Gomez where do you think the Rangers would be right now? I doubt the owners would have been happy buying out both Gomez and Redden.

The point is it is nice to say "trade old man + acquire young superstars = Stanley cup!" but in reality it doesn't work that way and there is many routes to a cup that don't involve "scorched earth" tactics.

Ours, Calgarys and Nashvilles.
I doubt whether the Raangers would have Gomez and Redden at the same time.

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01-20-2013, 08:27 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
The Carter trade was brutal for Columbus. Johnson pretty much has negative value (he literally can't play defense on even strength) and that 1st isn't nearly strong enough compensation for a forward of Carter's ilk.

He went on a little hot streak after the trade but little sign he'll be sustainably good.

They probably should have dealt Carter if he wasn't happy with the org, but the return was brutal.
OK, I may have overrated Johnson. I thought he did well with Columbus toewards the end.

Also, it may have been the best offer for Carter. Carter's overrated and maybe GMs are beginning to see this. I think he'll never come close to 46 goals again.


Last edited by DAChampion: 01-20-2013 at 08:34 PM.
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01-20-2013, 08:39 PM
  #203
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OK, I may have overrated Johnson. I thought he did well with Columbus toewards the end.

Also, it may have been the best offer for Carter. Carter's overrated and maybe GMs are beginning to see this.
Johnson and Wiz were +4, but were only ~45% in shot attempts for and against. Defense pairing that can't control the shot balance will fail in the long wrong. They took attention away from the good pairing Columbus had in Tyutin-Nikitin.

I don't see how you can possibly over-rate a consistent 30 goal scorer that plays good two-way hockey.

Any team should be happy to have him as their 2-3 best forward.

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Old
01-21-2013, 01:26 AM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
You might be right.

Ownership should see though that we have 334 straight sellouts going for us right now though and we came in 15 out of 15 last season. Fans aren't going anywhere.

If they're smart, they'll recognize that the 'brand' of the Canadiens is based on cups. They'll recognize that they could've made a lot more money over the past 15 years if we'd had taken the time to rebuild at some point and built contending teams.

There's no excuse for fighting for 8th every year with the money we generate.
You can safely bet your house that unless the Habs start winning most of their games, there will be empty seats in the Bell Centre this season.

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01-21-2013, 07:35 AM
  #205
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You can safely bet your house that unless the Habs start winning most of their games, there will be empty seats in the Bell Centre this season.
Yeah but the Bell Center will sold out anyways. Peoples may not go to the game but the administration don't care because they sell every tickets.

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Old
01-21-2013, 08:53 AM
  #206
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This is an intresting thread. In a shortenned season I really don't mind if Montreal fell out of the playoffs. You need to consider that this team doesn't have the firepower to take on the better teams in our division let alone in our conference. If we had trouble with Toronto, I think its quite safe to say, we will be having more problems as the season moves along. And for me its the Stanley Cup or bust, I'm simply not satisfied just making the playoffs, not with being a fan of the Habs.

Does Montreal need to do a clean sweep and rebuild from the ground up? Maybe, I think they actually have a good core to build around.

Alexander Galchenyuk, Max Pacioretty, Lars Eller, PK Subban, Alexei Emelin, Josh Gorges and Carey Price are all good pieces to build around. We actually have a decent enough prospect pool now that we can be calling them up as well to join the team next year.

The issue for us as fans is do we want to see the organziation to a full rebuild which would knock us out of the playoffs for a few more years or think outside the box and try to get some flexibility with our cap space and use some free agency to rebuild from. For me, I think we should do a combination of both.

We all know that Ryan Getzlaf and Correy Perry are going to be UFA's next season. The Ducks are going to try their hardest to sign them but I have a feeling they may try Free Agency and see what is out there. Each of them have been 90pt players and Getzlaf was injured last year, if he was healthy both Getzlaf and Perry would of had better point totals. What makes both these guys attractive is they are both 27yrs old. Getzlaf a big playmaking centerman that we desperately need and Perry a 50goal scorer. I think Montreal can make a play for these two players. Some of you are thinking how with our cap situation and at the moment we don't have the space to go after these guys. But... there is a way if you think outside the box.

Our cap situation for the 2013-2014 year is 54million with one buyout done on Gomez and Subban unsigned atm. Say he does sign for 5million so our cap would sit at 59million with 17 players signed. Not alot of room to sign anyone at this point right? Here is where we have to change our thinking, our roster as it stands now isn't a playoff team, and if they do manage to squeak in, then the Habs chances of winning the Cup is pretty small. As a fan I want Montreal to improve their chances to win the Cup dramatically. So we need to accept we are not a contender. At this point we need to figure out which players fit our core and which become expendable. Accepting this premise, we then need to trade players before the trade deadline which is more doable now with the Cap and trade clause in the new CBA. So here is my idea.

Players that should be traded.
The idea behind trading these players is not to get any players back in trade because they will eat cap room, only return draft picks.

Tomas Kaberle (4.2million) Possible 3rd or 4th round pick in return. (People may say he is worth a 2nd rounder, but I am being realistic in the new CBA, 4.2 million is alot for a team to take on.)

Rene Bourque (3.33million) Should be easily tradeable, possible 2nd round pick if he has a decent season or a 3rd.

Brian Gionta (5million) Gionta's production is just not worth the cap hit. Montreal would need to do a cap and trade with the other team. 3million would go their way and we would take on 2million. 2nd round pick in return best case scenario.

Andrei Markov (5.7million) Buyout Markov and his big contract. With Tinnordi and Beaulieu, both of these defenseman should be given every chance to make the club now.

Cap for 2013-2014 with all these changes factored in from the orginal 59million. We would now have a cap of 42.5million with the cap and trade with Gionta factored in. The Habs then would have 21.8million free to sign free agents.

So everything I posted here is all very doable, Kaberle and Bourque can be traded, Gionta can be traded, his contract is alot more attractive at 3million rather then 5million. So with this cap space we can make a play for both Getzlaf and Perry. Both of them are more then likely want to play together which is what the Ducks are going to offer them. But we can offer them that as well, what we can offer that stands out from the Ducks, is playing at Montreal. The hockey mecca for the NHL. No matter what a Leaf fan says, nothing beats the atmosphere at the Bell Centre. Add to this is the Ducks are rebuilding and with the loss of Shultz last season to Edminton, the idea they can rebuild anytime soon is a foregone conclussion. Anaheim isn't a prime destination for free agents. And lastly we can offer Getzlaf and Perry a high scoring linemate like that they had in Anaheim. We offer them Max Pacioretty to line up with them. Like Bobby Ryan, Pacioretty is a left winger and should slot in perfectly.

So to recap:
1)Ability to play together in their new city as the number one line
2)Location, location, location. Playing for a hockey mad city is a huge plus.
3)Max Pacioretty lining up with them offers them another high scoring powerforward like they had in Anaheim with Bobby Ryan.
4)And finally because we freed up over 20+million of cap space, we can offer them 7million each to play for us.

For Montreal.
1)We gain a top big bodied centerman in Getzlaf that can form one of two scoring lines for the Habs.
2)A 50goal scorer in Correy Perry.
3)Ability to keep Tomas Plekanec and Lars Eller so we have the 4 centerman we can build from.
4)Lastly with David Desharnais up for a big raise, we avoid going to arbitration and handing out a big raise. Desharnais would then be free to go as a free agent.

This would then allow us to move Galchenyuk up to the second line where he can center it with Erik Cole on one wing and we would then bring in Sebastian Collberg to build chemistry with Galchenyuk. These two seem destined to be linemates. Because we have Getzlaf, Perry and Pacioretty on the top line, Galchenyuk wouldn't face the same amount of pressure to provide scoring if he was on the top line. We can develop him and have him build chemistry with his linemates.

Our top 2 lines would look like this.

Pacioretty-Getzlaf-Perry

Collberg-Galchenyuk-Cole

Prust-Plekanec-------

Moen-Eller---------


Defense would look like this.

Subban-Gorges

Emelin-Beaulieu

Tinnordi-Diaz

Goalkeeper: Carey Price

With 2-3million committed to Tinnordi and Beaulieu and Collberg, we would then have close to 5million left over to fill out a backup goalkeeper, one more defenseman and 2 utility forwards. All doable with whats left in the cap.

Not only does Montreal improve from the top, we would then gain two scoring lines, have two big bodied centerman. Have 3 powerforwards on the team. Montreal would add scoring and a ton of lineup issues for other teams to match now. Montreal would be alot closer to contending for a cup with this scenario then a full rebuild,

Is this all fantasy? It is, for one thing the Ducks can resign Getzlaf and Perry and we would be relying on Marc Bergevin make the hard descision to become a seller when playoffs arrive. But as I pointed out already, this plan is all very doable. Just need to be committed to going through with it.

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Old
01-21-2013, 09:08 AM
  #207
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Tanking this season and the 7 player profile

Before I write my thoughts and views, this is no, way, shape or form my view on the loss or me giving up on the season already, it's my opinion on what I think is best for the future of this team:

With a 48 game season and the new rule in this CBA which states that any team that DOES NOT make the playoffs can win the lottery for 1st overall, I really think that we need to sit back and re-build before thinking of being bounced in the first or second round of the playoffs.

The 7 player profile to build a stanley cup winning team is an idea Pierre McGuire always throws around, I admit that I believe in it and think it works, here it is:

1) Franchise goaltender - Carey Price
2) Elite puck moving defenseman - PK Subban and Nathan Beaulieu
3) Big stopping defensemen - Jarred Tinordi
4) Two elite centers - Alex Galchenyuk and ?????
5) Power forward - Max Pacioretty
6) Specialist - Tomas Plekanec
7) Elite defensive defenseman - ?????

Now, I think we are two major pieces away from being a contender, with Price, Pacioretty, Subban, Galchenyuk, Beaulieu, Tinordi and even Collberg waiting we need to draft either SETH JONES, NATHAN MACKINNON OR SASHA BARKOV in 2013!!!

I think the best thing for us is to continue to re-build!

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01-21-2013, 09:15 AM
  #208
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Pacioretty - Galchenyuk - Cole
Gallagher - Getzlaf - Perry
Eller - Plekanec - Gionta
Prust - Leblanc - Moen


Subban - Jones
Tinordi - Gorges
Beaulieu - Emelin

Price

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Old
01-21-2013, 09:19 AM
  #209
Pierre Dagenais
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Mind View Post
Pacioretty - Galchenyuk - Cole
Gallagher - Getzlaf - Perry
Eller - Plekanec - Gionta
Prust - Leblanc - Moen


Subban - Jones
Tinordi - Gorges
Beaulieu - Emelin

Price
3 rookies on defense? You want to tank another season?

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Old
01-21-2013, 09:19 AM
  #210
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Well, if we finish in the bottom 7, we have a good chance to get another top centre/winger prospect as there's 6 of them. After that the talent drops off a bit for the forwards though id like Shinkaruk.

MacKinnon
Drouin (not sure he's playing as a centre right now?)
Barkov (can play centre or wing)
Lindholm
Monahan
Nichushkin

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Old
01-21-2013, 09:22 AM
  #211
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Originally Posted by WestIslander View Post
Before I write my thoughts and views, this is no, way, shape or form my view on the loss or me giving up on the season already, it's my opinion on what I think is best for the future of this team:

With a 48 game season and the new rule in this CBA which states that any team that DOES NOT make the playoffs can win the lottery for 1st overall, I really think that we need to sit back and re-build before thinking of being bounced in the first or second round of the playoffs.

The 7 player profile to build a stanley cup winning team is an idea Pierre McGuire always throws around, I admit that I believe in it and think it works, here it is:

1) Franchise goaltender - Carey Price
2) Elite puck moving defenseman - PK Subban and Nathan Beaulieu
3) Big stopping defensemen - Jarred Tinordi
4) Two elite centers - Alex Galchenyuk and ?????
5) Power forward - Max Pacioretty
6) Specialist - Tomas Plekanec
7) Elite defensive defenseman - ?????

Now, I think we are two major pieces away from being a contender, with Price, Pacioretty, Subban, Galchenyuk, Beaulieu, Tinordi and even Collberg waiting we need to draft either SETH JONES, NATHAN MACKINNON OR SASHA BARKOV in 2013!!!

I think the best thing for us is to continue to re-build!
First, the specialist pricetag is too high, so there needs to be somebody else in Plekanec's place. Unless he accepts a salary drop at the end of his current contract. Besides, trading Plekanec would be the best way, if not the only way, to properly continue a rebuild.

Second, don't even think this team doesn't draft Drouin if MacKinnon and Jones are gone.

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01-21-2013, 09:23 AM
  #212
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I'd say Gorges is close enough to an elite defensive defenseman that we could consider that hole filled.

And it's the wings that worry me more than centers. I think Plekanec, Desharnais or Eller would be a fine #2 center behind Galchenyuk.

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01-21-2013, 09:23 AM
  #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Mind View Post
Pacioretty - Galchenyuk - Cole
Gallagher - Getzlaf - Perry
Eller - Plekanec - Gionta
Prust - Leblanc - Moen


Subban - Jones
Tinordi - Gorges
Beaulieu - Emelin

Price
Okay, do you realize that you just found a way to build a team that is both over the cap and with 3 rookies on defense?!?!?!?!

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01-21-2013, 09:51 AM
  #214
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Originally Posted by WestIslander View Post
Before I write my thoughts and views, this is no, way, shape or form my view on the loss or me giving up on the season already, it's my opinion on what I think is best for the future of this team:

With a 48 game season and the new rule in this CBA which states that any team that DOES NOT make the playoffs can win the lottery for 1st overall, I really think that we need to sit back and re-build before thinking of being bounced in the first or second round of the playoffs.

The 7 player profile to build a stanley cup winning team is an idea Pierre McGuire always throws around, I admit that I believe in it and think it works, here it is:

1) Franchise goaltender - Carey Price - Done
2) Elite puck moving defenseman - PK Subban and Nathan Beaulieu-Done w/PK
3) Big stopping defensemen - Jarred Tinordi - Not here yet
4) Two elite centers - Alex Galchenyuk and ????? - Chucky not there yet.
5) Power forward - Max Pacioretty - Done
6) Specialist - Tomas Plekanec - Done
7) Elite defensive defenseman - ????? - Markov, can he carry the role.

Now, I think we are two major pieces away from being a contender, with Price, Pacioretty, Subban, Galchenyuk, Beaulieu, Tinordi and even Collberg waiting we need to draft either SETH JONES, NATHAN MACKINNON OR SASHA BARKOV in 2013!!!

I think the best thing for us is to continue to re-build!
I think we're closer than we think but really time is the only thing against us. If we hope to see Chuckie succeed, I think we still need to draft a top line centre to grrom him. If we do tank and manage to get a guy like Seth Jones, I'd be elated! Otherwise, we need to trade for a top end defensman imo.

Projecting our current line up into the not so distant future, I think we'd need to see something like this before we can be considered a serious contender:

Patches - #1C - Collberg
Bourque - Chuckie - Cole
Eller - Pleks - BGally/Leblanc
Prust - White - Moen
Armstrong

#1D - PK
Markov - Emelin
Gorges - Tinordi
Beaulieu

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Old
01-21-2013, 10:20 AM
  #215
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Originally Posted by FrankMTL View Post
Well, if we finish in the bottom 7, we have a good chance to get another top centre/winger prospect as there's 6 of them. After that the talent drops off a bit for the forwards though id like Shinkaruk.

MacKinnon
Drouin (not sure he's playing as a centre right now?)
Barkov (can play centre or wing)
Lindholm
Monahan
Nichushkin
MacKinnon------everyone's pipe dream...it would be great, but I'm not holding my breath

Drouin-----playing LW
Barkov, Lindholm, Monahan, Nichuskin ------ yes please!

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01-21-2013, 10:31 AM
  #216
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I'd much rather Perry over Getzlaf. Also, we could milk Diaz and Emelin on that third pairing until the young guys are ready. They looked pretty good for NHL rookies last year, and looked pretty good on Saturday night. I think Gorges is definitely trade-able at some point. Could be a decent piece for a team gunning for the playoffs.

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Old
01-21-2013, 11:25 AM
  #217
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MacKinnon------everyone's pipe dream...it would be great, but I'm not holding my breath

Drouin-----playing LW
Barkov, Lindholm, Monahan, Nichuskin ------ yes please!
If you can grab Seth Jones....**** this plan

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Old
01-21-2013, 11:35 AM
  #218
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If you can grab Seth Jones....**** this plan
I personally would have a tough time pickeing between Jones and McKinnon (if we even had a choice like that). I've seen alot more of Mackinnon, live as I go to alot of Moosehead games. But what I've seen of Jones has impressed the poo out of me. We have a need for both types of these players. But really, what a great position to be in to have that choice.

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01-21-2013, 11:42 AM
  #219
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Yeah but the Bell Center will sold out anyways. Peoples may not go to the game but the administration don't care because they sell every tickets.
We've sold out every single game for four years straight. We may not do it this year due to the strike but next year we'll start selling out again. It's not going to matter what we put on the ice. Esp if we add Galchenyuk and other youngsters to the roster. People are going to want to go see those guys.

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01-21-2013, 12:31 PM
  #220
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Players that should be traded.
The idea behind trading these players is not to get any players back in trade because they will eat cap room, only return draft picks.

Tomas Kaberle (4.2million) Possible 3rd or 4th round pick in return. (People may say he is worth a 2nd rounder, but I am being realistic in the new CBA, 4.2 million is alot for a team to take on.)

Rene Bourque (3.33million) Should be easily tradeable, possible 2nd round pick if he has a decent season or a 3rd.

Brian Gionta (5million) Gionta's production is just not worth the cap hit. Montreal would need to do a cap and trade with the other team. 3million would go their way and we would take on 2million. 2nd round pick in return best case scenario.

Andrei Markov (5.7million) Buyout Markov and his big contract. With Tinnordi and Beaulieu, both of these defenseman should be given every chance to make the club now.
Those are bad contracts that no one wants now. You'd probably have to include draft picks and/or prospects just to move them, unless you wanted a bad contract in return.

At the trade deadline, teams will be looking for expiring contracts that won't be impacting their cap next season.

Some of these may have some decent trade value at this time next year, providing they stay healthy and produce.

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01-21-2013, 02:02 PM
  #221
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I confess to being confused about the CBA. Are players who were signed prior to this season receiving their full salaries based on an 82 game schedule or are their salaries prorated for 48 games? If the salaries aren't being prorated then every team will incur a huge deficit.

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01-21-2013, 04:19 PM
  #222
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From the other thread:
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Given the present roster the Habs couldn't reach the finals this year or next no matter how many deals Bergevin is able to complete. They will have to take their lumps for the time being. If they exceed expectations n the next year or two it wouldn't be by much. It would be quixotic to try to bring in a player of Rick Nash's caliber because their base is so weak that it wouldn't greatly improve their standing even if they could.

I disagree with the notion of violently disrupting the team because it would more likely result in a shambles than in a contender. Instead, I favor an incremental buildup in which the return for departing players would be either young players of predictable future value or capable veterans who aren't going to be released in a year or two.

Bergevin should not confine his acquisitions to draft picks. Sometimes it's defensible to give up prospects even when you're not among the elite. Sam Pollock did this more than once. If he hadn't consummated a three-for-one trade with Detroit to get Frank Mahovlich the Habs couldn't have won Cups in 1971 and 1973 because, despite Ken Dryden, the Bruins were too much better. (Mahovlich set a playoff points record in 1971). True, the big M jumped ship after the 1973 Cup win while Detroit retained the talented young players they acquired (notably Mickey Redmond, a future 50 goal scorer) but no Hab fan could reasonably complain. Interestingly, Detroit accomplished very little in the 1970s with their surgical tank while the Habs profited immensely by doing the exact opposite. By the way, Pollock didn't trade Henri Richard, Jean Béliveau, Emile Bouchard, or John Ferguson in the 1970s but allowed them to retire gracefully.
With the Habs they had more top picks than anyone. They rebuilt even while they were winning. And if Wickenheizer had panned out we'd have even more cups. It's perfectly fine to have vets playing and retiring on your roster when you're winning cups, esp when it's a guy like Beliveau.

As for the Wings, they didn't rebuild in the 70s dude. They let Marcel Dionne one of the greatest players of all time (and a number two pick) go because they didn't want to pay him. That's how they became the Detroit Dead Things. When new ownership hired Jimmy Develanno in the 80s they were going to go for quick fixes. He told them 'no' and to stick with the draft. On the first pick... they got Steve Yzerman.

Their owner has consistently thanked and credited Jimmy D over the years for convincing them to stay patient and build through the draft. It certainly was a good choice.

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Old
01-21-2013, 04:20 PM
  #223
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
I confess to being confused about the CBA. Are players who were signed prior to this season receiving their full salaries based on an 82 game schedule or are their salaries prorated for 48 games? If the salaries aren't being prorated then every team will incur a huge deficit.
It's a prorated 70.2 million dollar salary cap, even though no team will be spending 70.2 million. The pay will be adjusted to the mirror the downward shift in NHL revenue due to game cancellations.

Next year it's 64.3 million, a real 64.3 million I think.

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01-21-2013, 04:22 PM
  #224
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I've come to realize that part of the reason I'm more bullish on the Habs medium term is that I like Lars Eller, I think he'll range between luxury third line center to solid 2nd line center, and that this is a solid piece for us to contend with in the period 2015-2018.

However, it's clear that a large swath of the fanbase does not rate Eller as high as I do, many just decontextualize and see a 28 point player and thus conclude oh my, mediocre third line center. As such, they see the Habs as being that much further from contention, and see my 1 year of tanking required as wishful thinking.

More specifically, fans who think Eller sucks believe it will be cataclysmic to let go of Plekanec.

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01-21-2013, 04:39 PM
  #225
DAChampion
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If management squanders Eller and Subban the way prior management squandered Perezhogin, Kostitsyn, Kostitsyn, Latendresse, etc then Montreal is looking at a Chicago-style rebuild at best.

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