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Cole's Plus/Minus: Game 2 Penguins vs. Rangers

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Old
01-21-2013, 08:47 AM
  #351
Funk311
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I'm so surprised by how much of a lightning rod Tangradi is in general, and season to date.

I am not ET apologist supporter basher hater etc.. but i just don't see what has happened so far that would warrant more than a "this could go either way".

I am going to give him a positive nod for games 1 & 2. He is new to everyday NHL work in the reg season, playing consistent minutes on the best line in the league. And thus far, the line has looked like the best in the league. So while he may not be setting the world on fire, he also isn't hurting effectiveness.

The analysts among us have highlighted areas he should improve. And certainly there have been some less than pretty moments, particularly on the breakout. But... i have seen him drive the net, open lanes, and create disruption on the forecheck. Now, disruption is not big hits. But, that line has caused a noticeably high rate of offensive zone (blue line in) turn overs in each game. Anyone who has played in basic systems knows forechecking is a unit job and not one guy. The first guy however, needs to be step one in forcing less desirable options (aka non clean breakouts). So far ET has been effective in disrupting the other team's first option, leading to mistimed passes which Geno and Neal are feasting on.

I have always said lets go 7 games, knowing there would be pluses and minuses. I will judge the need for change based on the effectiveness of the line overall. So far, i can't be real upset.

Other thoughts: TK. great start. not just the goals, but play in all 3 zones and making sure our 3rd line outperforms the other teams.

I will say the same for the bottom 6. My POV is "Did our bottom 6 do more to aide in victory than the other teams bottom 6?". I really like the play so far.

My biggest concern is Sid's line (in the near term). IF THERE IS ANY LINE TO DISCUSS it is Sid's line. they have not looked like a great 1st OR 2nd line thus far. Not creating chances. Not finding space. Def not looking dangerous every shift. Hopefully one good game turns it around.

PP: great job with Neal on the point. Actually plays the position well (PP perspective), making good pinches and decisions. His shot, and willingness to use it, makes our PP much more DIRECT and doesn't let the PK get set in perfect position.


Last edited by Funk311: 01-21-2013 at 08:53 AM.
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Old
01-21-2013, 08:47 AM
  #352
Ogrezilla
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Originally Posted by Dupree13 View Post
What I'd love to see is some analysis from somebody who has regularly seen ET play in the AHL. Because, I could be wrong, but I don't get the sense that many of the folks pontificating on this actually have. No offense to anyone.
It really doesn't matter what he did in the Ahl. The NHL is an entirely different game for him

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01-21-2013, 08:50 AM
  #353
wtbipyo
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
He has played three years in the NHL? When?

5-7 more games? Is that a joke? It is going to take months, going into years before he is the player people want to see. This is the NHL.

The A is not the NHL. Why do people have trouble grasping that?

Tangradi has zero problems muscling guys in the A and playing his game.

Once again, did you see how poorly B Schenn and Kreider looked? Anyone want to argue they are better prospects than Tangradi?

Aside from the Pens series, Schenn has been a hot mess most of last season. The two games this season, he has struggled.

Tangradi isn't turning into a mean PF in 5-7 games. I mean... Honestly, I can't believe people think this way.
You nailed it. The NHL is not the AHL. Colin MacDonald is a great example of how the leagues are different.

My question is do we use Tangradi to upgrade Sid's wing (since he's a better prospect than B Schenn and Kreider) or do we allow the time to pass to see if matures into what the organization wants?

When I say 5-7 games, 10 games, 20 games ... it is exactly what everyone on here knows what will happen. DB/Shero are only going to give that. Quit living in this false reality where you think the organization will actually give him months/years. They aren't. We are in a WIN NOW mode. Tangradi, if he doesn't improve to their expectations, will be traded.

Also ... notice I'm fine with him going beyond 5-7 if he shows improvements. He showed some from Sat to Sun. He just has to keep it up. Come down off the high horse big guy.

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01-21-2013, 08:53 AM
  #354
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
He has shown signs of improvement already so I guess that's good
He did show almost nothing. It´s something between being horrible/non-existent/mediocre. No, this is not enough for Top6, when we want to contend.

What´s even more blatant is that Geno and Neal clearly don´t believe in him. Geno fed him only once, ET had a great chance but pathetically missed the net. So far, we can live with that, because we are still winning games with excellent team effort, but trust me, ET hateress will be bigger when we lose some games because of that.

5-7 games could be the right number in this case. he has to show something like Despres did. Otherwise, goodbye.

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01-21-2013, 08:55 AM
  #355
Mr Jiggyfly
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Should we see some real progress at 20 games? That's my standard. Is that also unreasonable?

Frankly, I think it's moot. No way Bylsma gives him that long.
Schenn had a 20 game streak in Feb-March, getting regular minutes, where he had I believe one point.

Flyers kept playing him... He struggled right though April and found his game in the playoffs.

Now he is getting top line minutes and I watched both of his games this weekend and he is struggling.

This is one of the best fwd prospects in the game.. A kid who tore up the A.

Just a little perspective.

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01-21-2013, 08:55 AM
  #356
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On a side note ...

++++ Xbox Live NHL Gamecenter. It has been a beautiful surprise and the quality is HD. I love this over having to hook my computer up to the TV. Now I can read MrJigglyFly's comments while I watch the game instead of waiting until later .

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01-21-2013, 08:55 AM
  #357
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Originally Posted by SteelFish87 View Post
anyone got a video of the Orpik hit? i missed it
A hit like that is sure to be on the nhl.com highlights

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01-21-2013, 08:59 AM
  #358
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
I hope that I saw it wrong.

And, that second goal was about three guys being fixated on Geno, I think.
I realize using pictures to show something isn't ideal, but it should be adequate for this purpose.

To me it's quite apparent that Boyle drops his responsibilities for Neal and heads towards Tangradi. It can also be mentioned that Girardi is out of position behind the net because he followed Tangradi around the boards.




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01-21-2013, 08:59 AM
  #359
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01-21-2013, 09:00 AM
  #360
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Originally Posted by Will Hunting View Post
He did show almost nothing. It´s something between being horrible/non-existent/mediocre. No, this is not enough for Top6, when we want to contend.

What´s even more blatant is that Geno and Neal clearly don´t believe in him. Geno fed him only once, ET had a great chance but pathetically missed the net. So far, we can live with that, because we are still winning games with excellent team effort, but trust me, ET hateress will be bigger when we lose some games because of that.

5-7 games could be the right number in this case. he has to show something like Despres did. Otherwise, goodbye.
He's played 2 games in the top 6. Players need to develop. Should the flyers dump schenn? Should the rangers dump kreider? They showed as little or less than tangradi

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01-21-2013, 09:01 AM
  #361
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I said 7 games not to see ET's true potential in THE LEAGUE. But to give him a fair shot to earn time on Geno's line given his current level of play in the NHL. I think development is a long process, chemistry is too. But in a short season we can't throw away wins to develop. So the 7 game number was only to say "does this have a good chance to work for the year" or, "this is hurting the team in the short term"

If ET is not on Geno's line i would like to see him on the 3rd line playing a simplified, north south game, where not one guy on the line dictates all the play. I like his size and so far he has not been making any mistakes which hurt the team.

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01-21-2013, 09:01 AM
  #362
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Originally Posted by Alesle View Post
I realize using pictures to show something isn't ideal, but it should be adequate for this purpose.

To me it's quite apparent that Boyle drops his responsibilities for Neal and heads towards Tangradi. It can also be mentioned that Girardi is out of position behind the net because he followed Tangradi around the boards.



Great pictures!

Boyle does his responsibility. The D-man shouldn't be circling behind the net. Like I've said, as long as Tangradi shows small improvements (being in the right place) then give him more games. I hope DB doesn't pull the plug early.

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01-21-2013, 09:02 AM
  #363
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Originally Posted by wtbipyo View Post
You nailed it. The NHL is not the AHL. Colin MacDonald is a great example of how the leagues are different.

My question is do we use Tangradi to upgrade Sid's wing (since he's a better prospect than B Schenn and Kreider) or do we allow the time to pass to see if matures into what the organization wants?

When I say 5-7 games, 10 games, 20 games ... it is exactly what everyone on here knows what will happen. DB/Shero are only going to give that. Quit living in this false reality where you think the organization will actually give him months/years. They aren't. We are in a WIN NOW mode. Tangradi, if he doesn't improve to their expectations, will be traded.

Also ... notice I'm fine with him going beyond 5-7 if he shows improvements. He showed some from Sat to Sun. He just has to keep it up. Come down off the high horse big guy.
It's not a high horse to suggest people don't rag on a young kid and be patient with him while he learns.

Why should he be crucified because this team hasn't developed a top six guy in decades, outside of Malone? It isn't his fault, nor is it his fault Shero hasn't found better top six options.

This is exactly why people rag on him and are so impatient. If he was brought along on the third line and slowly worked his way up, people would still rag on him for not being good enough for the top six.

He can't win, no matter what he does. He basically has to magically skip the steep learning curve of a normal prospect to make people happy and that isn't happening.

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01-21-2013, 09:06 AM
  #364
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Originally Posted by wtbipyo View Post
Great pictures!

Boyle does his responsibility. The D-man shouldn't be circling behind the net. Like I've said, as long as Tangradi shows small improvements (being in the right place) then give him more games. I hope DB doesn't pull the plug early.
Those are pictures of the Rangers playing clueless defense. Really guys, I can accept any realistic arguments for his play but this is crazy.

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01-21-2013, 09:09 AM
  #365
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The "win now" schtick is just that. It's something to keep young guys down and bring in veterans. So within the next, I don't know, 15 years, are the Pens ever going to not be in a "win now" mode to where they can actually bring young players along? As a great team, you have to find a way to fit in your young guys and let them develop.

As much as I hate Philly, they've done this phenomenally well over the years. They plug guys like Giroux in the lineup, and let him get comfortable. As he gets more comfortable they feed him more responsibility. They've done this with numerous players over the years. They give their young guys a great mix of comfort, shelter, and opportunity. Giving them all enough leash to succeed, but not enough to hang themselves with.

IF we're going to be a successful organization at developing talent, we need to be able to let our young guys play, and be able to put up with hiccups. A lot of people here have been jaded by the fact we've had some incredibly young players step in and play well almost immediately. Those guys are the exception...not the rule.

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01-21-2013, 09:09 AM
  #366
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Originally Posted by Alesle View Post
I realize using pictures to show something isn't ideal, but it should be adequate for this purpose.

To me it's quite apparent that Boyle drops his responsibilities for Neal and heads towards Tangradi. It can also be mentioned that Girardi is out of position behind the net because he followed Tangradi around the boards.
It is more mistake of NYR defense than Tangradi's superplay.
They left Neal alone in front of the net. This elementary mistake rarely happens even in a junior hockey
But the same way Pittsburgh played in defense in PO against Flyers.

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01-21-2013, 09:09 AM
  #367
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
Those are pictures of the Rangers playing clueless defense. Really guys, I can accept any realistic arguments for his play but this is crazy.
Obviously it's horrible defense, but I'd still say that Tangradi had a positive effect on that play as two opposing players were evidently drawn towards him, leaving Neal all alone.

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01-21-2013, 09:10 AM
  #368
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Originally Posted by wtbipyo View Post
My question is do we use Tangradi to upgrade Sid's wing (since he's a better prospect than B Schenn and Kreider) or do we allow the time to pass to see if matures into what the organization wants?
Tangradi is in no way a better prospect than either of those guys. I think that was Jiggy's point.

Honestly. I'm not sure what people expected. I think he's played well enough these first two games considering the type of player he naturally is compared to what he's being asked to do. It's also worth mentioning that being on a line like that one isn't always a blessing. Especially for a young guy trying to polish his game.

My only complaint is that his board work and puck retrieval seem very substandard for a big, strong guy, at times. He even seems a little adverse to contact. He's losing too many one on one battles in the tough spots of the ice. For now, I'm not so worried about the lack of offense, though. Overall he's helping to open up the ice just a little bit for the other two guys on that line... and that's a very good thing.

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01-21-2013, 09:11 AM
  #369
Ogrezilla
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
Those are pictures of the Rangers playing clueless defense. Really guys, I can accept any realistic arguments for his play but this is crazy.
The only argument needed is that its been 2 games and normal prospects take a while to develop. Even great ones like b schenn take months going on seasons at this point

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01-21-2013, 09:12 AM
  #370
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Should the flyers dump schenn
Idk, maybe. I actually think he sucks too.

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01-21-2013, 09:14 AM
  #371
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
The "win now" schtick is just that. It's something to keep young guys down and bring in veterans. So within the next, I don't know, 15 years, are the Pens ever going to not be in a "win now" mode to where they can actually bring young players along? As a great team, you have to find a way to fit in your young guys and let them develop.

As much as I hate Philly, they've done this phenomenally well over the years. They plug guys like Giroux in the lineup, and let him get comfortable. As he gets more comfortable they feed him more responsibility. They've done this with numerous players over the years. They give their young guys a great mix of comfort, shelter, and opportunity. Giving them all enough leash to succeed, but not enough to hang themselves with.

IF we're going to be a successful organization at developing talent, we need to be able to let our young guys play, and be able to put up with hiccups. A lot of people here have been jaded by the fact we've had some incredibly young players step in and play well almost immediately. Those guys are the exception...not the rule.
I agree especially about Philly. The Scott Laughton kid they drafted last summer is already playing for them and despite being fairly invisible against us, he did look pretty dangerous at times against Buffalo yesterday.

One would hope that the Pens are trying to do the same with some of their young prospects like Despres. You have to stick these kids in the lineup and ride the ups and downs at some point.

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01-21-2013, 09:14 AM
  #372
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+ Neal - Glad he's carrying on his scoring from last year.
+ Malkin - 3 point night is fantastic to see from him
+ Crosby - Got his first point of the season but would still like to see more from him

- SHG against. Shouldn't be letting those in.

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01-21-2013, 09:15 AM
  #373
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It is more mistake of NYR defense than Tangradi's superplay.
They left Neal alone in front of the net.
The same way Pittsburgh played in defense in PO against Flyers.
My initial quote was that Tangradi drew attention away from Neal. I never claimed that he made a "superplay", just that on that particular play his linemate was given additional time and space as a consequence of the opposing players over pursuing Tangradi.

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01-21-2013, 09:16 AM
  #374
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Idk, maybe. I actually think he sucks too.
They shouldn't because he doesn't.

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01-21-2013, 09:20 AM
  #375
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We've got ourselves a few strong Tangradi defenders in here but most posters seem to be reasonable about this topic. Give the dude more time and address the top 6 if needed when the time comes.

ET just needs to make a play or two once in a while and look like he's capable of contributing offense and not just keeping up with the play and doing grunt work. And if DB has really told him that if he handles the puck for another second in the offensive zone to make a play then he's going in the press box, well, I just don't think that's the case.

If a juicy rebound bounces to him in the slot right now, is anyone confident that Tangradi would score? Again, give him plenty of time but it's on him to show something as well.

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