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P.K Subban Thread 4.0 - Still Unsigned Edition

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Old
01-21-2013, 01:03 AM
  #501
Bomber0104
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What is the latest on Subban's negotiations?

Are they really that far apart?

How much is Subban after?

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01-21-2013, 01:07 AM
  #502
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Anyways children, this has been fun, but I'll be back tomorrow. Or later today, as it were.

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01-21-2013, 03:39 AM
  #503
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I think we're a 2013 lottery team with or without Subban.

However, without Subban we're also a lottery team in 2014 and 2015.
Depends also on Markov (as usual!).
No Markov. No Subban...maybe top 3 overall pick
(I never hope for tanking but if our Habs lose a lot I get tempted in thinking about the only positive about losing a lot...top 3 or top 5 overall star-prospect pick).

Imo, no Subban this season (or 1/2 of season) could mean top 5 overall pick...with Subban we may only end up with a 10th or 12th or 14th overall pick,etc we would get more wins with Subban (especially with Subban and Markov on the PP). I prefer a top 3-5 overall pick VS 10th-14th overall pick. Sad to talk about this but this is only for IF our Habs lose a lot of games...or else I live for the playoffs!! (love it but would love it more if we have all our core players healthy).


Last edited by Mr. Hab: 01-21-2013 at 03:45 AM.
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01-21-2013, 03:46 AM
  #504
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hab View Post
Depends also on Markov (as usual!).
No Markov. No Subban...maybe top 3 overall pick
(I never hope for tanking but if our Habs lose a lot I get tempted in thinking about the positive...top 3 or top 5 overall star-prospect pick).

Imo, no Subban this season (or 1/2 of season) could mean top 5 overall pick...with Subban we may only end up with a 10th or 12th or 14th overall pick,etc we would get more wins with Subban (especially with Subban and Markov on the PP). I prefer a top 3-5 overall pick VS 10th-14th overall pick. Sad to talk about this but this is only for IF our Habs lose a lot of games...or else I live for the playoffs!! (love it but would love it more if we have all our core players healthy).
At one point 95% of the forum was against rebuilding.

However, if drafting top-5 comes from putting Subban in his place, all of a sudden fans are all:



*deep sigh*

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01-21-2013, 03:47 AM
  #505
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
At one point 95% of the forum was against rebuilding.

However, if drafting top-5 comes from putting Subban in his place, all of a sudden fans are all:



*deep sigh*
Seriously, imagine a message board existing in the 70s when Ken Dryden held out on Sam Pollock.

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01-21-2013, 05:16 AM
  #506
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Originally Posted by Doc McKenna View Post
Even with PKs return I don't see us being much better than 10th in the east. Last nights problems had less to do with dmen than our forwards not doing much in the leaf end of the rink. I like gally, but he shouldn't be on the wing and likely will be sent back to the sting. I thought his game was very tentative(uncomfortable on the wing) and leave it at that. Our forwards looked awful. I wish pleks the supposed playmaker on our team would pass the puck to an open man once in a while. And you team has little hope when the 4th line and bourque look like your top players.
Man. Relax. 1 game. No exhibition.

We have problems holding the zone and going into the crease, that's it. This is the sort of thing that we will get with time; the 3rd period proved we can do it.

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01-21-2013, 05:30 AM
  #507
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Um seriously? I suggest you read my post again. And if you still feel the same, get some sleep because your reading comprehension is a little out of whack currently.
Trying to back peddle out of your own mess won't help. The other guy trolling me about my education level and watching hannity,(i am a marxist but I would expect hat from someone who doesn't understand the greater good)got thrown on ignore. YOu started with the suggestion that the habs offered 1 million per.

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01-21-2013, 06:08 AM
  #508
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
You are taking my comment out of context.

What I am trying to say is that PK is comparable to del Zotto in numbers and ability. del Zotto signed a two year $2.5 contract.

He is not their big minutes DMan because he plays on a team that has better defensive depth.

So should we overpay Subban because he is the best DMan (but still comparable to del Zotto in skill) on a team that has a considerably weaker defense?

Or more simply put, do you reward a person greater for being good (not superstar) because of his co-workers ineptitude?

THAT makes little sense to me.
MDZ is not a comparable, and if you can't make that evaluation, you either have seen MDZ play that often or simply can't evaluate Dmen properly. Subban is more comparable to McDo, not Del Zotto. Don't take my word for it, take Elliot Friedman's.
Del Zotto started in NYR as their 6th Dman at ES. He slowly progressed, and even had to be sent down to the AHL in his sophomore year because he was so bad. He improved his game a bit, and up until last year, was sitting at a 4th ES Dman.
Not at all comparable to PK.

Put that aside though, and you can't possibly tell PK to not look at home. I mean, you're saying he's played top minutes because of our poor depth. Looking at this depth, you have guys like Gorges and Kaberle making close to 4M-4.25M. PK brings more to the table than them, but he should take less cash? Doesn't seem quite fair. It doesn't matter if it's other management that gave those deals. Comparables are used throughout the NHL, by different kind of managements, it only makes sense to use the ones that are on the same team.
Some times it's over the top crazy, like if Plekanec felt he should get more cash than Gomez. But in PK's case, it's certainly not crazy to think he should be making more than Gorges and Kaberle.

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Old
01-21-2013, 06:17 AM
  #509
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
The bridge applies to everyone, that is what is great about it. Remember when people were calling Komisareck the next habs captain? Good thing we didn't **** our pants and give him the moon. Subban needs more evaluating no matter how many posters of him you have on your ceiling.
But you can't say that. 'Cause for every freakin example of a player turn bad you're giving me, I could give you 10 more you turned good. The bridge will not make it impossibile to misread a player. We are solely talking about 1 or 2 years here. It is totally possible that a player's performance goes down AFTER a bridge.

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Old
01-21-2013, 06:47 AM
  #510
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Originally Posted by Doc McKenna View Post
Crap or not you even recognize that he has bad decision making. The komisarek comparisons has to do with putting yourself out of poistion at the wrong time. Subban does this often, that is bad hockey IQ or poor positional play, whatever you choose to call it. Markov looked fine in his own end and he was never a physical dman so his injury has done nothing to change his puck moving abilities. Markov is at the end of his career, subban is at the beginning, imjureis could happen, but even if they don't if he doesn't improve his positional play and play within the system he certainly ins't worth what some figures have been thrown around. I can think of 2 dozen Dman that would equal or better PK and none of them were norris candidates.

Ovechkin isn't even a top 10 player now, but is you had asked people about him in his 5th year, nevermind his 3rd, he was projected to be a top 10 player of all time. Subban to me is a top 20-40 dman leaguewide-if he continues to not make as you called it inexperienced mistakes. But I still don't see him as a top 5 Dman ever. I might be wrong but I will admit it.
I have the feeling that you only see the bad. Actually, I'm certain of it. You will see PK's poor position on a given play, but you won't recognize his good one on the many other plays before that mistake.
Emelin has positional issues, he's often seen moving back to the left side when used as a righty, or confused about which guy to go after.
PK doesn't have any positional problems, he makes mistakes, just like any other rookie or sophomore would, especially if used as a top pairing guy versus top opponents.
He also stops a lot of offensive plays with good reads and position, so I really don't understand how anybody that actually paid a lot of attention to his game (not just watching the game) would claim he has problems with position. It's just wrong.


Not sure who ever said Ovechkin was going to be a top 10 player of all time after a couple of seasons. Never heard or read anybody say such a thing. If anything, many were raising the doubts of Ovie having a long career in the NHL due to this style of play.
I don't see why you're talking about ''All time'' anyways..PK played 2 years, who cares if he's not top 5 Dman all time? Was that what you were hoping for??

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Originally Posted by Doc McKenna View Post
About 5.5-6 million, in two years. He isn't even there yet. He had top minutes last year because we were playing with 4 rookies. Kinda makes a 3rd year look like a vet at that point. St Dennis, Emelin, Weber and Diaz. Oh yeah and Kaberle-who everone hates for having too big a contract.
St-Denis played 17 games, it's not like he played all year. What next? You're gonna say Engqvist was our 4th line center for last year?
Weber isn't a rookie.
People hated Kaberle because he sucked and we already had 3 Dmen like him. His contracts just makes it worse.

PK played top minutes last year because he was our best Dman. Just like he was used as our #1 guy with Gill two years ago starting mid-december. That was with Hammer and Wiz here, and Spacek, and a bunch of other veterans he outplayed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc McKenna View Post
you did 2mil/2 yr usually means 1 million per.

We in the context of sports refers to us as the team, not we as in you and I. eg "we looked bad last night", clearly this would mean cole and patches, not doc and monkey.
Semantics aside, no one on this board or or even pundits know what has been offered or asked for. I made the point I believe 3.75 is fair to both the habs and subban. Whoever is farthest away on one side or the other of this number would be the one I would be upset with most. IF the habs offered subban 2 million he would have a reason not to sign, but I also likely think that isn't the case. I also know meehans reputation and he managed to get theo 5 million(almost 10 years ago) after winning the hart trophy, even though he wasn't that good afterwords. As a comparable.

Do I think subban wants 6-8 million, probably not, but would meehan direct him to do so, likely. Remember this isn't just bergevin ans subban, meehan is likely more at fault for the non signing than anyone else.
I don't know where to start really...
First off, when people say 2M per 2y, it usually means 2M each season for 2years, giving a total of 4M. In any event, it doesn't matter, but just thought I'd clear it up so you don't get confused in the future.

As for Meehan's reputation, it's way overblown. Sure, he might be a tough negotiator, but he's not an idiot either. He won't tell his client to sit at home because his over the top demands are being met. Makes no sense at all and he wouldn't have the career that he's had if he were giving such bad advice to his clients.
As for Theodore's contract, not only had he won awards for his great season, but it was a freaking long time ago in a no cap world. Completely incomparable.
In PK's case, I strongly doubt Meehan is going as high as 8M. There isn't one Dman in the NHL that is making 8M. Only 4 are making 7M or +.
Heck, only six are making 6M+. I seriously doubt they are asking for this much cash.
Matter of fact, I doubt they are asking more than what Markov is making. More than Gorges and Kaberle though, that makes a whole lot of sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc McKenna View Post
Trying to back peddle out of your own mess won't help. The other guy trolling me about my education level and watching hannity,(i am a marxist but I would expect hat from someone who doesn't understand the greater good)got thrown on ignore. YOu started with the suggestion that the habs offered 1 million per.
He actually never said that. He said ''For all we know they are offering 2m 2y''.
You understand the meaning of ''For all we know''?
That pretty much means that we don't know what they are offering, it could be 2M per 2y or 4M per 7y, or 3M per 1y. We don't know anything. And just like one can say they offered PK a good deal, someone else can say the opposite and be just as credible.
We don't know anything. So, to say PK is this or that based on speculations is kind of retarded.
You can have discussions about what makes more sense. One thing I've noticed, a lot of the guys supporting management don't have that many arguments, if any, as to why PK would suddenly ask for the moon and be this selfish greedy player.
On the flip side though, you can easily argue why Bergevin would be trying to squeeze out PK's pockets.
One theory makes sense to me, the other doesn't.

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Old
01-21-2013, 06:56 AM
  #511
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Hurry up and sign. This was supposed to be a pivotal year for Subban.

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01-21-2013, 08:20 AM
  #512
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Anybody knows what Gorges said about the PK situation this morning? Just read some comments on lapresse.ca that suggest he made a comment.

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Old
01-21-2013, 08:32 AM
  #513
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It would be nice if RDS or some other media tried to get more insight on what's truly happening in these negotiations. We are not getting a whole lot of information and we can only presume what each side is looking for, without ever being certain.

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01-21-2013, 08:50 AM
  #514
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http://awinninghabit.com/2013/01/18/...d-comparables/

Quote:
The inability to sign Subban is perplexing. As the team’s best defenseman, as one of the elite young defensemen in the game, he is probably the team’s most valuable, most impactful player (yes, ahead of Price).

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01-21-2013, 08:55 AM
  #515
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Originally Posted by impudent_lowlife View Post
Dude, don't you get it?

Any blog, any reporter post, any TWEET that are on Subban's side are fundamentally biased.


FUNDAMENTALLY

So stop bringing your "opinion" to this discussion table, admit you are a Subbanatic, and let the unbiased people trash the kid for showing up in a basketball match.

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01-21-2013, 09:00 AM
  #516
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If signing Subban means I will see less of Bouillon on the ice, I am becoming a hard-core Subbanatic effective immediately.

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01-21-2013, 09:03 AM
  #517
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Originally Posted by Tim Wallach View Post
If signing Subban means I will see less of Bouillon on the ice, I am becoming a hard-core Subbanatic effective immediately.
I did theorized in the PGT that Bouillon is effectively filling in many of Subban's roles. Therrien want his D-men to get used working along specific pairings, and doesn't want to upset them just because of PK's absence.

This make sense, and will allow chemistry to form between pairs, so they won't have to start from scratch once Subban sign.

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01-21-2013, 09:08 AM
  #518
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Originally Posted by impudent_lowlife View Post
That's a pretty convincing analysis imo.

Panthers PP looked amazing with Huberdeau and Kovy. Would not be surprised if the game started with Kovy chants and ended with "we want PK!" chants...

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01-21-2013, 09:11 AM
  #519
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
I did theorized in the PGT that Bouillon is effectively filling in many of Subban's roles. Therrien want his D-men to get used working along specific pairings, and doesn't want to upset them just because of PK's absence.

This make sense, and will allow chemistry to form between pairs, so they won't have to start from scratch once Subban sign.

I sincerely hope you're right.

With PK, I know all of the positive and negative chatter, but watching Saturday night, perhaps the biggest thing they missed was some enthusiasm and swagger. It was boring play after boring play.

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01-21-2013, 09:14 AM
  #520
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I sincerely hope you're right.

With PK, I know all of the positive and negative chatter, but watching Saturday night, perhaps the biggest thing they missed was some enthusiasm and swagger. It was boring play after boring play.
I'll be honest. I think you are dead wrong.

They had enthusiasm. They just were sloppy and uncoordinated. Unsure of who goes where. But they certainly tried hittin' hard. I doubt PK would have had MUCH of a difference...

..but then again, we lost 2 to 1, damn it. And we dominated most of the 3rd; PK could have tipped the balance in our favour.

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01-21-2013, 09:19 AM
  #521
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
I'll be honest. I think you are dead wrong.

They had enthusiasm. They just were sloppy and uncoordinated. Unsure of who goes where. But they certainly tried hittin' hard. I doubt PK would have had MUCH of a difference...

..but then again, we lost 2 to 1, damn it. And we dominated most of the 3rd; PK could have tipped the balance in our favour.
Fair enough. I just found it dreadfully boring due to that lack of imagination. Watching those PPs, surely Subban could have done more than rim it around the boards. And the pace too was so slow. Watching Kaberle lumber back for the puck and then lollygag up ice only to dump it in was getting painful.

Surely a quicker-moving, more creative puck carrier would have helped.

The bottom line for me is Montreal did nothing dynamic in that game. So adding your most dynamic player would have to be a huge lift.

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01-21-2013, 09:26 AM
  #522
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Originally Posted by Tim Wallach View Post
Fair enough. I just found it dreadfully boring due to that lack of imagination. Watching those PPs, surely Subban could have done more than rim it around the boards. And the pace too was so slow. Watching Kaberle lumber back for the puck and then lollygag up ice only to dump it in was getting painful.

Surely a quicker-moving, more creative puck carrier would have helped.

The bottom line for me is Montreal did nothing dynamic in that game. So adding your most dynamic player would have to be a huge lift.
I agree with you. First thing that popped into my head after watching that game was that they missed PK out there. He brings so much to the table and they have nothing on the current roster to replace it.

PK is an incredible talent and I just want him signed so we can move on from this garbage.

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Old
01-21-2013, 09:28 AM
  #523
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
I'll be honest. I think you are dead wrong.

They had enthusiasm. They just were sloppy and uncoordinated. Unsure of who goes where. But they certainly tried hittin' hard. I doubt PK would have had MUCH of a difference...

..but then again, we lost 2 to 1, damn it. And we dominated most of the 3rd; PK could have tipped the balance in our favour.
The D pairings were atrocious on the PP. Couldn't keep the puck in the offensive zone. PK could have been the difference between a loss and going to SO. Then Gally scores the SO winner and everyone is happy. Instead, we're all doom and gloom and ready for last place.

The Habs are not as bad offensively as the stats show. The forwards are just not getting the kind of support from the D's that they need to build confidence. Man, I miss Streit-Markov. Really hoping that PK-Markov will be as good.

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01-21-2013, 09:31 AM
  #524
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
I did theorized in the PGT that Bouillon is effectively filling in many of Subban's roles. Therrien want his D-men to get used working along specific pairings, and doesn't want to upset them just because of PK's absence.

This make sense, and will allow chemistry to form between pairs, so they won't have to start from scratch once Subban sign.
Subban was the Habs' best D last year. You are saying that Therrien's strategy is to put a past-his-prime depth D into the top pairing? Bouillon is a 6th or 7th D at best. That kind of coaching makes Randy Cunneyworth look like the second coming of Toe Blake.

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01-21-2013, 09:33 AM
  #525
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Originally Posted by impudent_lowlife View Post
Subban was the Habs' best D last year. You are saying that Therrien's strategy is to put a past-his-prime depth D into the top pairing? Bouillon is a 6th or 7th D at best. That kind of coaching makes Randy Cunneyworth look like the second coming of Toe Blake.
Therrien's strategy is to prepare for PK's arrival so the D doesn't have to scramble again once he is sitting again at the top of the depth chart.

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