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Lupul extended - 5 years x 5.25m

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Old
01-21-2013, 08:33 AM
  #576
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Originally Posted by Toasterman View Post
Begin? It started the moment Burke traded for him. People wanted Burke fired for taking on the huge salary of that washed up guy who was going to be out of the NHL soon.
People that can't balance their own books worrying about leafs accounting. Lets think about this for a moment. You let grabs walk for nothing or next to nothing have nobody in the system as capable and your team suffers as a result, well sign me on up for that.

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01-21-2013, 08:35 AM
  #577
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
You must have missed it, just a few posts up in this thead, hard worker, and heart & soul were cited. The usual response.

You avoided the question, is he worth the usage of 5.5M valuable cap space, when he is debatably slightly better than what players can do at a much better cap hit?

It's not so much Getzlaf, but what if a good UFA player that Grabo's 5.5M can better fill was available? It's not a hard concept to understand.
Can you go ahead and list what players similar to Grabo have gotten in the UFA market for the past 4 years?

The most recent case was Zajac, and he got paid a lot more than Grabo. They are similar caliber player, with the edge going to Zajac. But he isn't 3 more years @ 5.75 better. This is the going rate for high end 2nd line/borderline top line centers. You are just dragging this out and making yourself look foolish with these posts.

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01-21-2013, 08:39 AM
  #578
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Originally Posted by TML g u n n e R s View Post
Getzlaf has clearly said he wants to stay in ANH. I can assure you ANH will atleast sign one of their franchise players... what team lets 2 franchise players out the door in one summer.
I'm not debating the likelyhood of the events, I've even mentioned in previous posts how unlikely I thought such a scenario is. I'm merely stating that IF the opportunity arose two acquire two top UFAs (forget the ANA duo), we could make room for them in the $64M cap world. Lupul's extension (which IMO is fair for both sides, and pretty low risk) will not prevent us from pursuing top UFAs this offseason should some become available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darrylsittler27 View Post
Amnesty Grabo? If Toronto offered to eat $1 million a year on his contract he would get a nice return.

No way Phaneuff gets $6.5 million next contract.The Lupul signing was shrewd, at a fair price.
Which is why I said worst case. Clearly, the ideal situation would be to get a decent return from him, but I suspect the majority of the teams will be in a salary dump mode this offseason to get under the $64M cap while keeping their core intact.

Whether we chose to eat part of a player's salary, or amnesty him (as long as he gets another contract offer), the Leafs would be on the hook for part of the contract. In one case, it counts toward the cap, in the other case, it doesn't. So the question becomes, how much of a return would be worth $1M caphit for 4 years. What about $2M caphit for 4 years (if interested teams are too tight on cap space to fit $4.5M in)?

I have no doubt that Phaneuf's cap hit will be lower if he gets extended, but we also have some players who'll probably be due for a raise. Kadri, Gunnarsson, Gardiner, and we may need some $$ allocated to improving our goaltending. We seem to have quite a few options with very few players committed to big contracts, and those big cap hits either expire very soon, or are movable in one way or another.

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01-21-2013, 08:46 AM
  #579
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chandrashekhar Limit View Post
Can you go ahead and list what players similar to Grabo have gotten in the UFA market for the past 4 years?

The most recent case was Zajac, and he got paid a lot more than Grabo. They are similar caliber player, with the edge going to Zajac. But he isn't 3 more years @ 5.75 better. This is the going rate for high end 2nd line/borderline top line centers. You are just dragging this out and making yourself look foolish with these posts.
You have it wrong, Grabo never made it to the UFA market, so the UFA market comparable is wrong; regardless Zajac is a good example, he's a much better player that I was interested in prior to him signing, much better than Grabo is, is one of the best faceoff men in the league, has size, is better offensively, and defensively, and his cap hit is only, 250k per more.

And that's the point, much better than Grabo at the almost identical cap hit. You agreed Zajac has the decided edge, and we don't need a HF boards poll to know Travis is better. I don't know why you need a list from me, since you pointed to a player that is a much better cap hit in your post already.

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01-21-2013, 09:01 AM
  #580
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
You have it wrong, Grabo never made it to the UFA market, so the UFA market comparable is wrong; regardless Zajac is a good example, he's a much better player that I was interested in prior to him signing, much better than Grabo is, is one of the best faceoff men in the league, has size, is better offensively, and defensively, and his cap hit is only, 250k per more.

And that's the point, much better than Grabo at the almost identical cap hit. You agreed Zajac has the decided edge, and we don't need a HF boards poll to know Travis is better. I don't know why you need a list from me, since you pointed to a player that is a much better cap hit in your post already.
I like how you purpotedly left out the additional length of Zajac's contract. 5.75 @ 8 years >>>> 5.5 @ 5 years in terms of monterary value. Zajac's contract is worth a lot more than Grabo's, when he isn't a significantly better player. Cap hit is directly related to the number of years being offered, and if Zajac were being offered 5 years, you would have seen him make 6-6.5 M based on the contract he got. The point is, that is the going rate for great 2nd line centers [$5-$6.5 M]. I asked for comparable UFA's so that you can show yourself the market value for said players. The UFA market is definitely applicable because teams, and players for sure use the market value when considering offers.

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01-21-2013, 09:16 AM
  #581
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Originally Posted by Chandrashekhar Limit View Post
I like how you purpotedly left out the additional length of Zajac's contract. 5.75 @ 8 years >>>> 5.5 @ 5 years in terms of monterary value. Zajac's contract is worth a lot more than Grabo's, when he isn't a significantly better player. Cap hit is directly related to the number of years being offered, and if Zajac were being offered 5 years, you would have seen him make 6-6.5 M based on the contract he got. The point is, that is the going rate for great 2nd line centers [$5-$6.5 M]. I asked for comparable UFA's so that you can show yourself the market value for said players. The UFA market is definitely applicable because teams, and players for sure use the market value when considering offers.
I have no problem with Zajac's length of term, he will be 35 when that contract ends, Grabo will be 34 when his ends. Both are going to be almost the same identical cap hit at 5.5 - 5.75 until they are in their mid 30's.

I disagree with you that both are similar players, though to be accurate you did give the edge to Zajac. If there were no cap then we could price players anyway we want, but the point some of us are making here, is overpaying players in a cap era, limits the quality of signings on the UFA or re-signing of key players on your roster, surely we can agree on this. Even if we disagree on the value of the player.

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01-21-2013, 09:19 AM
  #582
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Ridiculous contract for someone who has only had one successful year in his entire career.

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01-21-2013, 09:28 AM
  #583
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chandrashekhar Limit View Post
I like how you purpotedly left out the additional length of Zajac's contract. 5.75 @ 8 years >>>> 5.5 @ 5 years in terms of monterary value. Zajac's contract is worth a lot more than Grabo's, when he isn't a significantly better player. Cap hit is directly related to the number of years being offered, and if Zajac were being offered 5 years, you would have seen him make 6-6.5 M based on the contract he got. The point is, that is the going rate for great 2nd line centers [$5-$6.5 M]. I asked for comparable UFA's so that you can show yourself the market value for said players. The UFA market is definitely applicable because teams, and players for sure use the market value when considering offers.
Zajac is a playmaker, whose role is to make the players around him better. Grabo is primarily a sniper. If we were somehow able to get Zajac before he signed his extension, it is very likely that he'd be our #1C now, and we wouldn't be having this conversation. I'll take a playmaking center over a sniping center of similar skill level (which again is debatable) any day of the week.

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01-21-2013, 09:29 AM
  #584
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
Ridiculous contract for someone who has only had one successful year in his entire career.
Lets be fair, he has scored at least 20 or more goals four times despite some serious injuries. He also brings some badly needed leadership to a very young team. Good signing

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01-21-2013, 09:30 AM
  #585
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
I have no problem with Zajac's length of term, he will be 35 when that contract ends, Grabo will be 34 when his ends. Both are going to be almost the same identical cap hit at 5.5 - 5.75 until they are in their mid 30's.

I disagree with you that both are similar players, though to be accurate you did give the edge to Zajac. If there were no cap then we could price players anyway we want, but the point some of us are making here, is overpaying players in a cap era, limits the quality of signings on the UFA or re-signing of key players on your roster, surely we can agree on this. Even if we disagree on the value of the player.
Ya I get it all players should be had at 3mil and should put up 60+ and we should be able to sign all free agents that come to market as though they have no say. Oh and we should be able to trade for big names for scrap always. Come back to reality

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01-21-2013, 09:31 AM
  #586
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
I have no problem with Zajac's length of term, he will be 35 when that contract ends, Grabo will be 34 when his ends. Both are going to be almost the same identical cap hit at 5.5 - 5.75 until they are in their mid 30's.

I disagree with you that both are similar players, though to be accurate you did give the edge to Zajac. If there were no cap then we could price players anyway we want, but the point some of us are making here, is overpaying players in a cap era, limits the quality of signings on the UFA or re-signing of key players on your roster, surely we can agree on this. Even if we disagree on the value of the player.
I do agree with you, but I don't agree with the example you are using. Paying a player like Grabovski 5.5 M in this market is fair, its not an overpayment.

And as far as Lupul's contract goes, I'll re-state a point I made previously - we will most likely have an amnesty buyout left for the 2014 offseason. That gives us 1.5 [this season is .5] seasons to asess Lupul's health and quality of play. If he miserably fails at reaching each of these expectations, we have the option of removing this contract without it hurting our cap.

Keeping that in mind, this is a great move, as we will get a major bargain if he gives us ~70 games/year, and .75-1 pts/game.

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01-21-2013, 09:33 AM
  #587
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Originally Posted by david999 View Post
Lets be fair, he has scored at least 20 or more goals four times despite some serious injuries. He also brings some badly needed leadership to a very young team. Good signing
A year or two too long.

He's proven very little other than scoring a PPG on a last place team once.

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01-21-2013, 10:09 AM
  #588
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Jeff Blair fan590:
"Lupul is a 2nd liner on most good teams, if not a 3rd liner"

based off of what we saw last yr:
i cant think of a team where he couldnt at least make their 2nd line, if not 1st line
including top scoring teams like pittsburgh chicago vancouver philadelphia etc..

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01-21-2013, 10:33 AM
  #589
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Horrible contract Blair is right.

Get that Burke puppet Nonis outta here before he does even more damage.

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01-21-2013, 10:34 AM
  #590
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I agree with everyone that based off Lupul injury history this contract has a fair amount of risk. What I disagree with is those people who say Lupul has only had one good season in his career. Yes, Lupul had a breakout year in 2011-12, but 5.25mil cap hit is a ridiculously affordable cap hit for a point per game player. The only thing that has derailed Lupul's career is injuries and look at his stats on a points per game basis we get:

2005-06: 0.65 pts/gm
2006-07: 0.35
2007-08: 0.82
2008-09: 0.63
2009-10: 0.61
2010-11: 0.57
2011-12: 1.02

Career: 0.63

Even if he regresses to the mean (which may occur to some extent, but I do not believe will completely) we would still be looking at a 52 point player over a 82 game season.

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01-21-2013, 10:34 AM
  #591
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p.l.f. View Post
Jeff Blair fan590:
"Lupul is a 2nd liner on most good teams, if not a 3rd liner"

based off of what we saw last yr:
i cant think of a team where he couldnt at least make their 2nd line, if not 1st line
including top scoring teams like pittsburgh chicago vancouver philadelphia etc..
Lupul is better than kunitz, better than dupuis (intangibles...i get it)...better than whoever the 3rd guy is on the malkin/neal (wasn't it Matt cooke for a while in previous seasons?) line.

I don't get people. He had a breakout last year, and to my eyes, the leafs didn't pay for that kind of performance. Anything close to that is a bargain. 60 pts per year and you're laughing. No question in my mind he can get that. "blood infection" is not a recurring injury either.

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01-21-2013, 10:43 AM
  #592
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p.l.f. View Post
Jeff Blair fan590:
"Lupul is a 2nd liner on most good teams, if not a 3rd liner"

based off of what we saw last yr:
i cant think of a team where he couldnt at least make their 2nd line, if not 1st line
including top scoring teams like pittsburgh chicago vancouver philadelphia etc..
I'm sorry but that's absolute BS.

If people are concerned about his injury history, that's one thing. But he's always been a very talented player.

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01-21-2013, 10:44 AM
  #593
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maybe he doesnt get that chance last yr on some teams to prove he can be a top 6 forward.
but now he's proven it
scored a pt per game
went to the all star game

what more could you ask for ?

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01-21-2013, 10:49 AM
  #594
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I'm sorry but that's absolute BS.

If people are concerned about his injury history, that's one thing. But he's always been a very talented player.
As donkey pointed out, it's not really so much of an injury history, but some unrelated injuries that are not likely to reoccur. At least not any more likely than with any other player we have. It's not like we're dealing with Crosby-like repeated concussion risk, or Markov's non-existent knee.

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01-21-2013, 10:54 AM
  #595
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
You have it wrong, Grabo never made it to the UFA market, so the UFA market comparable is wrong; regardless Zajac is a good example, he's a much better player that I was interested in prior to him signing, much better than Grabo is, is one of the best faceoff men in the league, has size, is better offensively, and defensively, and his cap hit is only, 250k per more.

And that's the point, much better than Grabo at the almost identical cap hit. You agreed Zajac has the decided edge, and we don't need a HF boards poll to know Travis is better. I don't know why you need a list from me, since you pointed to a player that is a much better cap hit in your post already.
It doesn't matter if he didn't get to UFA, we bought UFA years which is basically the same thing.

And Zajac being much better is a stretch. Besides he got term which is also important, not just caphit. Also, Zajac is signed in the new CBA and Grabo in the last one. There is a difference there for sure

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01-21-2013, 10:56 AM
  #596
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if that cap starts going back up after next year this is a great deal. In 2015/16 if the cap is 75 million then this deal really rocks.. Lupes wants to be here, was a point a game player last year without a top notch center, of course you resign him.

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01-21-2013, 10:57 AM
  #597
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
You have it wrong, Grabo never made it to the UFA market, so the UFA market comparable is wrong; regardless Zajac is a good example, he's a much better player that I was interested in prior to him signing, much better than Grabo is, is one of the best faceoff men in the league, has size, is better offensively, and defensively, and his cap hit is only, 250k per more.

And that's the point, much better than Grabo at the almost identical cap hit. You agreed Zajac has the decided edge, and we don't need a HF boards poll to know Travis is better. I don't know why you need a list from me, since you pointed to a player that is a much better cap hit in your post already.
Zajac is coming off a 15 game season, which followed a 44 point season, both because of major left-achilles injuries (actually the same injury, re-aggravated). NJ lost their #1 center to free agency, they had no choice but to give Zajac what he wanted. Just like the Leafs really had no choice but to give Grabovski what he wanted, because we never had a #1C to lose to free agency in the first place. Except we got our centre signed for 5 years instead of 8, and our centre doesnt have an injury that comes with a considerable risk of re-injury.


Last edited by bunjay: 01-21-2013 at 11:11 AM.
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01-21-2013, 11:06 AM
  #598
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Point blank. The Leafs CAN afford to sign both Perry and Getzlaf.

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Phil Kessel ($5.400m) / Ryan Getzlaf ($6.250m) / Corey Perry ($6.250m)
Joffrey Lupul ($5.250m) / Mikhail Grabovski ($5.500m) / Nikolai Kulemin ($2.800m)
James Van Riemsdyk ($4.250m) / Tyler Bozak ($2.550m) / Nazem Kadri ($1.000m)
Leo Komarov ($1.000m) / Jay McClement ($1.500m) / Mike Brown ($0.737m)
David Broll ($0.607m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Dion Phaneuf ($6.500m) / Mike Kostka ($0.750m)
John-Michael Liles ($3.875m) / Jake Gardiner ($1.117m)
Carl Gunnarsson ($2.000m) / Morgan Rielly ($1.775m)
Korbinian Holzer ($0.575m) /
GOALTENDERS
James Reimer ($1.800m)
Ben Scrivens ($0.613m)
BUYOUTS
Darcy Tucker ($1.000m) / Colby Armstrong ($1.000m)
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SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $65,297,500; BONUSES: $1,150,000
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $152,500

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01-21-2013, 11:17 AM
  #599
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JVr gets 4.2 ?
ouch

Lupul Getzlaf Kessel
JVR Kadri Perry


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01-21-2013, 11:26 AM
  #600
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JVr gets 4.2 ?
ouch
That could end up being a bargain in a year or two if he develops well. PFWs are notoriously late bloomers, and we probably won't know what we have in him for at least a couple of seasons.

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