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Who do the Oilers buyout? (If anyone)

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01-21-2013, 10:47 AM
  #526
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Originally Posted by nexttothemoon View Post
http://www.capgeek.com/faq/how-do-en...racts-work.php

Players on ELC contracts NEVER max out their bonuses in reality.

They may get the $850,000 maximum schedule A bonuses for team oriented clauses which ARE achievable, but they would never max out the $2 million in schedule B bonuses unless they were super human (Gretzky, Orr and Tretiak all rolled into one ) and won the Calder, Hart, Vezina, Conn Smythe, Lady Byng, Norris, Selke, Richard, Jennings, All-Star team etc all in the same year.
How do you know this? Do you have access to an ELC contract to see what the bonuses actually are? I've never seen one but I would imagine that Eberle maxed his out last year.

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01-21-2013, 11:00 AM
  #527
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Originally Posted by Oil Gauge View Post
How do you know this? Do you have access to an ELC contract to see what the bonuses actually are? I've never seen one but I would imagine that Eberle maxed his out last year.
Eberle is different. He doesn't get the 3mil in bonuses that those guys do. When Toews put the hawks over it was because they won the cup and he won the conn smythe.

It's not just simple bonuses like scoring 10 goals and 10 assists.

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01-21-2013, 11:20 AM
  #528
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
Eberle is different. He doesn't get the 3mil in bonuses that those guys do. When Toews put the hawks over it was because they won the cup and he won the conn smythe.

It's not just simple bonuses like scoring 10 goals and 10 assists.
Exactly, if the poster wants to look them up there in the old CBA.

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01-21-2013, 01:01 PM
  #529
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
Eberle is different. He doesn't get the 3mil in bonuses that those guys do. When Toews put the hawks over it was because they won the cup and he won the conn smythe.

It's not just simple bonuses like scoring 10 goals and 10 assists.
I know what the minimum achievements were under the old CBA.

You can earn up to $850,000 in Catagory A bonuses, $212,500 for each achievement, 20 goals, 35 assists, 60 points, .73 points per game, top 3 in plus minus for team, All rookie team, Allstar game/MVP. Varies for Defense and obviously goalies.

Catagory B Bonuses can pay out as much as $2Mil for any achievement with a maximum of $2mil total paid out. I'm curious to know what a first overall draft pick actually gets for bonuses. One would think that it would be max dollars for min requirements. So if RNH finishes in the top 10 in G,A,Pts, or P/G. Then he'll max out his contract. I wouldn't be surprised if that happens next season. I'm not sure how the trophies work because the CBA isn't quite clear about it, but I think you can negotiate bonuses for being in the top 3-5 in voting. Some trophies don't allow ELC bonuses though, only league wide bonuses.

I would be really interested to know what ELC bonus levels actually are being given to these top picks. as well as how many players actually get bonuses paid out. You gotta think that next season RNH and Yakupov have a good chance to earn most of their Bonus money.

Still with 3 players on Max ELC contracts $3,802,500 of their bonus money will have to count against the cap, plus their base salary of $925,000 X 3 = $2,775,000 + $3,802,500 = $6,577,500 cap hit for the 3 combined which gives each of them an actual cap hit of $2,192,500

plug that into my calculations for next season and our cap hit is $61,577,500 which comes in under the cap. Assuming that Smid doesn't get more than $3mil, Whitney or who ever ends up in that spot doesn't get more than $3Mil, Gagner only gets $3.5Mil, Fistric or his replacement doesn't get less than $2Mil. Khabby is replaced for $1.75Mil.

Horcoffs contract makes it tight, buying him out gives you about $3.5M in wiggle room if you replace him with a $2Mil player for your 3rd line center.

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01-21-2013, 04:31 PM
  #530
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oil Gauge View Post
How do you know this? Do you have access to an ELC contract to see what the bonuses actually are? I've never seen one but I would imagine that Eberle maxed his out last year.

Well I guess NEVER is too strong a word... because in a case like Kane and Toews where they went to the cup and Toews won the Conn Smythe... then you can potentially see the bonuses max out. That obviously doesn't happen very often though.

I doubt the Oilers would have issues with somehow finding a way to deal with those types of bonus issues if the Oilers find themselves in a similar position with an ELC Conn Smythe trophy winner on their hands.


Last edited by nexttothemoon: 01-21-2013 at 04:52 PM.
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01-21-2013, 06:21 PM
  #531
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Originally Posted by Oil Gauge View Post
I know what the minimum achievements were under the old CBA.

You can earn up to $850,000 in Catagory A bonuses, $212,500 for each achievement, 20 goals, 35 assists, 60 points, .73 points per game, top 3 in plus minus for team, All rookie team, Allstar game/MVP. Varies for Defense and obviously goalies.

Catagory B Bonuses can pay out as much as $2Mil for any achievement with a maximum of $2mil total paid out. I'm curious to know what a first overall draft pick actually gets for bonuses. One would think that it would be max dollars for min requirements. So if RNH finishes in the top 10 in G,A,Pts, or P/G. Then he'll max out his contract. I wouldn't be surprised if that happens next season. I'm not sure how the trophies work because the CBA isn't quite clear about it, but I think you can negotiate bonuses for being in the top 3-5 in voting. Some trophies don't allow ELC bonuses though, only league wide bonuses.

I would be really interested to know what ELC bonus levels actually are being given to these top picks. as well as how many players actually get bonuses paid out. You gotta think that next season RNH and Yakupov have a good chance to earn most of their Bonus money.

Still with 3 players on Max ELC contracts $3,802,500 of their bonus money will have to count against the cap, plus their base salary of $925,000 X 3 = $2,775,000 + $3,802,500 = $6,577,500 cap hit for the 3 combined which gives each of them an actual cap hit of $2,192,500

plug that into my calculations for next season and our cap hit is $61,577,500 which comes in under the cap. Assuming that Smid doesn't get more than $3mil, Whitney or who ever ends up in that spot doesn't get more than $3Mil, Gagner only gets $3.5Mil, Fistric or his replacement doesn't get less than $2Mil. Khabby is replaced for $1.75Mil.

Horcoffs contract makes it tight, buying him out gives you about $3.5M in wiggle room if you replace him with a $2Mil player for your 3rd line center.
If I remember correctly category B is where all the trophies come into play. I can't remember the specifics but for example RNH not winning the Calder cost him some money.

Edit: It's under exhibit 5 of the old CBA. doesn't tell you everything but gives you a general idea.


Last edited by raab: 01-21-2013 at 06:41 PM.
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01-21-2013, 10:30 PM
  #532
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nexttothemoon View Post
Well I guess NEVER is too strong a word... because in a case like Kane and Toews where they went to the cup and Toews won the Conn Smythe... then you can potentially see the bonuses max out. That obviously doesn't happen very often though.

I doubt the Oilers would have issues with somehow finding a way to deal with those types of bonus issues if the Oilers find themselves in a similar position with an ELC Conn Smythe trophy winner on their hands.
That is the only time we really ever heard how much a player makes in bonuses. Really we have no idea what these bonus achievements are set at. I would guess that #1 overall gets max bonuses for min achievement though. Makes sense?

Either way, if RNH Schultz or Yakupov have good years and finish top 10 in goal assists or PPG then they could max out their contracts.

That's not really the concern though because if they do that then they have the bonus cushion. But the bonus cushion is only 7.5% of the cap which means the Oilers could go over that if all 3 realize their full contracts which means the rest of these players cap hits will go against the cap in 2013-14. Without looking at any other ELC contracts the Oilers might have on the roster next year that increases these 3 players from $925,000 cap hits to $2,192,500 cap hits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by raab View Post
If I remember correctly category B is where all the trophies come into play. I can't remember the specifics but for example RNH not winning the Calder cost him some money.

Edit: It's under exhibit 5 of the old CBA. doesn't tell you everything but gives you a general idea.
RNH doesn't have a bonus in his contract for winning the Calder, no one does because its not allowed. RNH coming in second in calder voting cost him $62,500.

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01-22-2013, 07:01 AM
  #533
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oil Gauge View Post
That is the only time we really ever heard how much a player makes in bonuses. Really we have no idea what these bonus achievements are set at. I would guess that #1 overall gets max bonuses for min achievement though. Makes sense?

Either way, if RNH Schultz or Yakupov have good years and finish top 10 in goal assists or PPG then they could max out their contracts.

That's not really the concern though because if they do that then they have the bonus cushion. But the bonus cushion is only 7.5% of the cap which means the Oilers could go over that if all 3 realize their full contracts which means the rest of these players cap hits will go against the cap in 2013-14. Without looking at any other ELC contracts the Oilers might have on the roster next year that increases these 3 players from $925,000 cap hits to $2,192,500 cap hits.



RNH doesn't have a bonus in his contract for winning the Calder, no one does because its not allowed. RNH coming in second in calder voting cost him $62,500.
The 7.5% is the total amount that a team is permitted to exceed the cap by due to bonuses.

The danger is a possible carry over:

The key bonuses are:
Nugent-Hopkins $2.875M
Yakapov $2.875M
Justin Schultz $2.875M

This means that the Oilers can pay at least $3.73M before there is any carry-over if the Oilers max out their cap space.

You can pretty much assume that all three will hit their Schedule A bonuses so that is $2.53M.

Schedule B bonuses are very hard to hit. Schultz and RNH are the best bet to hit theirs. but I think the chances of even one hitting the schedule B bonus is far less than 50%. Even so if the Oilers have a similar roster with

1) Gagner = $4M (upper estimate)
2) Paajarvi=$1.1M (upper estimate)
3) Jones = $1.75M (upper estimate)
4) Whitney = $4M (upper estimate)
5) Smid = $4M (might get a bit more)

and $1.5M for a backup goalie, then they could pay out about $5.3M in schedule B bonuses before triggering any carry-over.


Last edited by Fourier: 01-22-2013 at 07:08 AM.
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01-22-2013, 09:42 AM
  #534
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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
The 7.5% is the total amount that a team is permitted to exceed the cap by due to bonuses.

The danger is a possible carry over:

The key bonuses are:
Nugent-Hopkins $2.875M
Yakapov $2.875M
Justin Schultz $2.875M

This means that the Oilers can pay at least $3.73M before there is any carry-over if the Oilers max out their cap space.

You can pretty much assume that all three will hit their Schedule A bonuses so that is $2.53M.

Schedule B bonuses are very hard to hit. Schultz and RNH are the best bet to hit theirs. but I think the chances of even one hitting the schedule B bonus is far less than 50%. Even so if the Oilers have a similar roster with

1) Gagner = $4M (upper estimate)
2) Paajarvi=$1.1M (upper estimate)
3) Jones = $1.75M (upper estimate)
4) Whitney = $4M (upper estimate)
5) Smid = $4M (might get a bit more)

and $1.5M for a backup goalie, then they could pay out about $5.3M in schedule B bonuses before triggering any carry-over.
If the Oilers max out their cap space then any bonuses paid out carry over to the next season. The Cushion is not free cap space, it is a way to allow teams to treat players on their ELC's as if they had a $925,000 Cap hits instead of their full Bonus cap hits. Any overages carry over to the next season.

Since the Oilers have $8,550,000 in potential bonuses between 3 players and the performance bonus cushion only allows for a 7.5%
overage or $4,822,500, the Oilers will have a lower Upper limit by $3,727,500. Their upper cap limit will actually be $60,572,500

Giving your re-signings the oilers would have a pre bonus cap hit of $59,175,000, and a full bonus hit of $67,725,000. They could only pay out $5,125,000 in total bonuses without going over the cap. As you mentioned their Schedule A bonuses will probably all be met so that's $2,550,000 (850000*3).

That Leaves $2,575,000 for Schedule B bonuses, not $5,125,000. You gotta think that achieving even 1 of the Schedule B bonuses would pay out the $2,000,000 bonus.

So 2 out of the 3 of them have to come in the top five in balloting for the Hart, Norris, Vezina, Selke, Richard. Be named to the official NHL All-Star Team (1st or 2nd) at the conclusion of the season. Finish top 10 in Goals, Assists, Points, or PPG amongst their position (F or D), or Defense can finish top 10 in Ice time as well.

Last year that was about 24:44 per game or more. If schultz continues on the path he is, that's not too far off. And we all know RNH is a threat to be in the top 10 in any of those categories this year and next. That's without even knowing what Yakupov might be in a years time.

Money is going to get tight in edmonton, thats why buying out Horcoff frees up a lot of space to bring in some better players to help support the core we have here.

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01-22-2013, 12:30 PM
  #535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oil Gauge View Post
That is the only time we really ever heard how much a player makes in bonuses. Really we have no idea what these bonus achievements are set at. I would guess that #1 overall gets max bonuses for min achievement though. Makes sense?

Either way, if RNH Schultz or Yakupov have good years and finish top 10 in goal assists or PPG then they could max out their contracts.

That's not really the concern though because if they do that then they have the bonus cushion. But the bonus cushion is only 7.5% of the cap which means the Oilers could go over that if all 3 realize their full contracts which means the rest of these players cap hits will go against the cap in 2013-14. Without looking at any other ELC contracts the Oilers might have on the roster next year that increases these 3 players from $925,000 cap hits to $2,192,500 cap hits.



RNH doesn't have a bonus in his contract for winning the Calder, no one does because its not allowed. RNH coming in second in calder voting cost him $62,500.
Ok so coming in first for voting for the Calder. Same difference and those category B bonuses are paid by the league/team. Apparently the team can negotiate up to 2M in bonuses with the player. But for the player to achieve that he has to basically be top 5 in voting for a trophy.


Last edited by raab: 01-22-2013 at 12:38 PM.
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01-22-2013, 12:34 PM
  #536
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Dumb question. Could in reality we buy-out horcoff and resign him for 1 million, then he would only be a 1 million cap hit? Dont see why teams dont do this? unless of course its illegal

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01-22-2013, 12:59 PM
  #537
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Originally Posted by Kamus View Post
Dumb question. Could in reality we buy-out horcoff and resign him for 1 million, then he would only be a 1 million cap hit? Dont see why teams dont do this? unless of course its illegal
Can't reaquire anyone you buyout.

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01-22-2013, 01:02 PM
  #538
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Oilers will buyout Horcoff then we'll have 3 years of "we need a third line center to win draws and get in front of the net.."

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01-22-2013, 02:32 PM
  #539
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Originally Posted by Oil Gauge View Post
If the Oilers max out their cap space then any bonuses paid out carry over to the next season. The Cushion is not free cap space, it is a way to allow teams to treat players on their ELC's as if they had a $925,000 Cap hits instead of their full Bonus cap hits. Any overages carry over to the next season.

Since the Oilers have $8,550,000 in potential bonuses between 3 players and the performance bonus cushion only allows for a 7.5%
overage or $4,822,500, the Oilers will have a lower Upper limit by $3,727,500. Their upper cap limit will actually be $60,572,500

Giving your re-signings the oilers would have a pre bonus cap hit of $59,175,000, and a full bonus hit of $67,725,000. They could only pay out $5,125,000 in total bonuses without going over the cap. As you mentioned their Schedule A bonuses will probably all be met so that's $2,550,000 (850000*3).

That Leaves $2,575,000 for Schedule B bonuses, not $5,125,000. You gotta think that achieving even 1 of the Schedule B bonuses would pay out the $2,000,000 bonus.

So 2 out of the 3 of them have to come in the top five in balloting for the Hart, Norris, Vezina, Selke, Richard. Be named to the official NHL All-Star Team (1st or 2nd) at the conclusion of the season. Finish top 10 in Goals, Assists, Points, or PPG amongst their position (F or D), or Defense can finish top 10 in Ice time as well.

Last year that was about 24:44 per game or more. If schultz continues on the path he is, that's not too far off. And we all know RNH is a threat to be in the top 10 in any of those categories this year and next. That's without even knowing what Yakupov might be in a years time.

Money is going to get tight in edmonton, thats why buying out Horcoff frees up a lot of space to bring in some better players to help support the core we have here.
I understand how the bonus. My mistake was leaving Dubnyk off the salary list!

Thanks for pinting this out!

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01-22-2013, 06:12 PM
  #540
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Originally Posted by raab View Post
Ok so coming in first for voting for the Calder. Same difference and those category B bonuses are paid by the league/team. Apparently the team can negotiate up to 2M in bonuses with the player. But for the player to achieve that he has to basically be top 5 in voting for a trophy.
Teams can not give bonuses for winning or being voted for the Calder. It is exempt from the list of awards that teams/players can negotiate bonuses for. The league does pay a bonus for it though. Same goes for the Lady Byng

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamus View Post
Dumb question. Could in reality we buy-out horcoff and resign him for 1 million, then he would only be a 1 million cap hit? Dont see why teams dont do this? unless of course its illegal
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Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
Can't reaquire anyone you buyout.
You can after 1 year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
I understand how the bonus. My mistake was leaving Dubnyk off the salary list!

Thanks for pinting this out!
That will do it. You did raise some good points about bonuses though. save some cap space but not enough to make Horcoffs contract bearable.

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