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01-21-2013, 12:05 PM
  #76
bohlmeister
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Originally Posted by Renegade Stylings View Post
I would hate to lose the kid. But, he's part of the reason why this thing has gone south. The Avs have proven time and time again that they can be fair when it comes to contracts and they will reward the player if they are worth it.

David Jones' deal comes to mind, as does Varlamov's.

Those guys are both getting good compensation during recently signed deals.

I just would wish that the Avs would pony up and make a deal here. I mean, at least give him Jones-like money. It only makes sense.

If they don't and if this sours the relationship, I at least feel positively that we would be able to get some nice pieces in return if a trade was the final ending to this mess.
To what end though? If they don't re-sign this guy I don't see any light at the end of the tunnel. He is exactly what they preach they are trying to build their team around. If they legitimately want to win a Stanley Cup and build a contender, you NEED players like RoR and Landeskog. If they trade him for more bit pieces I don't see this cycle ending. They will develop talent, then let them walk because they won't to pony up.

I don't think we can afford to lose RoR. Even at 5 million a season. I would sign him for that for 8 years. HE is too smart of a player (hockey IQ) and too committed to make it a bad deal IMO. You don't let character players like RoR go at 22.

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01-21-2013, 12:08 PM
  #77
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It will be a pretty sad day when O'Reilly goes. Sherman will have rolled the dice on us losing Winnik in favor of McClement/O'Reilly, only to lose both of them and gut our defensive abilities in the bottom 6. Going from a lineup of extremely versatile defensive specialists to a bunch of average joes.

I really hope they can put out the burning bridges and come to terms soon. We sadly have two major holes right now without O'Reilly and I would like at least one filled before the season is over.

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01-21-2013, 12:09 PM
  #78
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Well, well, they are different type of players, we can all agree on that.

Anyway, for me RoR is better and more valuable player than Statsny and Duchene.

The toughness, grit, heart, offensive and defensive play RoR and Lando showed together was beautiful, extremely hard working players. If you combine thes ingrediences with some more offensive talanted players then you have a winning team.

But right now we don't have RoR and Duchen and Statsny have lots of thing to prove regarding offensive capability.
Duchene and Stastny have a lot to prove offensively, but O'Reilly doesn't?

This is starting to sound like the Tebow-intangibles argument.

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01-21-2013, 12:11 PM
  #79
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It will be a pretty sad day when O'Reilly goes. Sherman will have rolled the dice on us losing Winnik in favor of McClement/O'Reilly, only to lose both of them and gut our defensive abilities in the bottom 6. Going from a lineup of extremely versatile defensive specialists to a bunch of average joes.

I really hope they can put out the burning bridges and come to terms soon. We sadly have two major holes right now without O'Reilly and I would like at least one filled before the season is over.
With or with O'Reilly, it's really time for Duchene and Statsny to play up to their potential otherwise Sherman have to get rid of them.

Lando I don't feel that worried about. He is a bit too young becoming a captain but he is too good to fail.

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01-21-2013, 12:16 PM
  #80
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Duchene and Stastny have a lot to prove offensively, but O'Reilly doesn't?

This is starting to sound like the Tebow-intangibles argument.
We can't live in the past, can't we?

Last season showed what O'Reilly brings to the table, it's not only about points in hockey. Playing as he did last season plus some development is good enough for me.

Lando and O'Reilly came from the third line last season outplaying the entire team. What else can you ask for?

They were good in all aspects of the game, hard working allround players.


Last edited by 21: 01-21-2013 at 12:22 PM.
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01-21-2013, 12:20 PM
  #81
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If they trade him for more bit pieces I don't see this cycle ending. They will develop talent, then let them walk because they won't to pony up.
Which hasn't even begun to happen. Just look at Jones' bloated contract as evidence they pay their own players when the time comes.

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01-21-2013, 12:20 PM
  #82
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With or with O'Reilly, it's really time for Duchene and Statsny to play up to their potential otherwise Sherman have to get rid of them.

Lando I don't feel that worried about. He is a bit too young becoming a captain but he is too good to fail.
This is a good point. I think we know what we are getting with Duchene. But Stastny will need to show that he is still capable of being a top center. I wouldn't be against signing RoR and trading Stastny if he doesn't step up in RoR's absence.

It is retarded that Sacco is playing Duchene against the top lines though. Recipe for disaster IMO.

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01-21-2013, 12:21 PM
  #83
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We can't live in the past, can't we?

Last season showed what O'Reilly brings to the table, it's not only about points in hockey.

Lando and O'Reilly came from the third line last season outplaying the entire team. What else can you ask for?

They were good in all aspects of the game, hard working allround players.
All he does is win. Repeat, repeat.

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01-21-2013, 12:22 PM
  #84
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We can't live in the past, can't we?

Last season showed what O'Reilly brings to the table, it's not only about points in hockey.

Lando and O'Reilly came from the third line last season outplaying the entire team. What else can you ask for?

They were good in all aspects of the game, hard working allround players.
Not to ask for outlandish salaries?

Seriously, ROR proved he can be a very good 2nd line center last season. The issue I see is that as long as the Avs have Stastny and Duchene as well, ROR will be relegated to the 3rd line center as long as those two are healthy. To distribute the minutes properly somebody has to move to wing (Duchene is really the only option there and he hasn't look good when it has been tried), or somebody needs shipped out. While I think the best option would be to sign ROR and ship out Stastny, I just don't see that happening with this management team. Stastny and Duchene have both played good solider during this and ROR asked for a bunch more money and signed a contract in the KHL.

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01-21-2013, 12:24 PM
  #85
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Not to ask for outlandish salaries?

Seriously, ROR proved he can be a very good 2nd line center last season. The issue I see is that as long as the Avs have Stastny and Duchene as well, ROR will be relegated to the 3rd line center as long as those two are healthy. To distribute the minutes properly somebody has to move to wing (Duchene is really the only option there and he hasn't look good when it has been tried), or somebody needs shipped out. While I think the best option would be to sign ROR and ship out Stastny, I just don't see that happening with this management team. Stastny and Duchene have both played good solider during this and ROR asked for a bunch more money and signed a contract in the KHL.
But that's not what happened or what Avs plan was. They gave him PP time last year. They gave him every chance to earn offensive minutes. They didn't pull Landeskog off his line to get Duchene going. Avs want O'Reilly to provide offense.

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01-21-2013, 12:25 PM
  #86
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Avs will be up against the cap in two-three years and then you'll be damned happy and not worried, that Avs negotiate hard with their players.
Why is the Avs' reputation as tough negotiators so popular here? Wouldn't you be better off with a mngmnt. team that identifies the real important pieces and pays them accordingly. Why use a one size fits all approach to negotiating (our way or the highway). Is that really the best approach to building a winner? They obviously don't value him as highly as other teams seem to, I wonder why that is? If they end up moving him I could envision him playing for a Cup wherever he ends up, before the likes of Kronke, Sherman or Sacco taste any real success. Ownership and Mngmnt. will hold this team back not "greedy" players. People seem to think he was the beneficiary of the Lando pairing last year, perhaps it was the other way around. We will get a snapshot of that theory over the next month or so. Some folks might end up surprised that just maybe Lando ends up missing him.

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01-21-2013, 12:25 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Renegade Stylings View Post
Piece from Elliotte Friedman:

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opin...ned-three.html

Ryan O'Reilly, Colorado Avalanche

The Colorado Avalanche don't talk about this stuff. A request for comment was politely declined. The Denver Post's Adrian Dater reported O'Reilly turned down a five-year, $17-million offer last summer. Colorado pulled that proposal and came up with two years for $7 million, which went nowhere.

Colorado's reputation is the organization can be very tough negotiators. It was among the NHL's highest-paying teams during its glory years, but the last three seasons have seen it among the lowest.

O'Reilly remains in Russia, although he missed a game last weekend with a foot injury. His situation reminds me a lot of Michael Peca's in Buffalo. O'Reilly likely won't ever be a 100-point scorer. He had 55 points last season, more than his first two years combined, but he is a fierce, fierce competitor who can do a lot of critical things for you. He took more defensive-zone faceoffs than any other Avalanche player and faced the toughest competition among the team's centres (credit: behindthenet.ca).

The problem is that leads to major disputes between teams and agents over exactly how to financially quantify those things. Peca, for example, was traded because he and the Buffalo Sabres could not agree.

"He's definitely a No. 2 centre," one GM said of O'Reilly. "And with the proper wingers, he could be a No. 1 guy."

Those guys get paid well, especially if they can score. But again, O'Reilly is four years from unrestricted free agency.

The Avalanche operate in secrecy, so it's hard to predict what they are going to do. When they dealt Chris Stewart, many other teams didn't know he was even available. Barring a major change in philosophy from either side, this one could be heading in that direction.
What the hell GM went on the record saying this about another teams player? This reaks of Brian Burke, being unable to stay away from the media. It's borderline tampering if it's an active GM talking about what role a player is capable of playing, and implying how they should be paid when they're in a contract dispute.

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01-21-2013, 12:26 PM
  #88
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Not to ask for outlandish salaries?

Seriously, ROR proved he can be a very good 2nd line center last season. The issue I see is that as long as the Avs have Stastny and Duchene as well, ROR will be relegated to the 3rd line center as long as those two are healthy. To distribute the minutes properly somebody has to move to wing (Duchene is really the only option there and he hasn't look good when it has been tried), or somebody needs shipped out. While I think the best option would be to sign ROR and ship out Stastny, I just don't see that happening with this management team. Stastny and Duchene have both played good solider during this and ROR asked for a bunch more money and signed a contract in the KHL.
What the hell, this is your team, let's hope you are right!

I'm just a Swedish fan worshipping Forsberg and now cheering for Landeskog. ;-)

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01-21-2013, 12:27 PM
  #89
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Duchene and Stastny have a lot to prove offensively, but O'Reilly doesn't?

This is starting to sound like the Tebow-intangibles argument.
If O'Reilly is not scoring he is helping the team in other ways. If Stastny and Duchene are not producing offensively they are not good for anything.

To me it is ridiculous to give Jones a 4x4 deal, and not give it to O'Reilly who is a much more important player to this team.

It is embarassing for this team to not come to terms with your 22yo leading scorer when you have one of the lowest payrolls in the league.

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01-21-2013, 12:29 PM
  #90
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But that's not what happened or what Avs plan was. They gave him PP time last year. They gave him every chance to earn offensive minutes. They didn't pull Landeskog off his line to get Duchene going. Avs want O'Reilly to provide offense.
The plan looked to be that the Avs were going to roll basically 3 2nd lines to distribute the offensive minutes as much as possible (not ideal but can work when you have 3 very good centers). The Avs didn't give ROR powerplay time, he earned it. With Duchene's injuries and overall bad play last year he played himself into a lesser role. Also, when players have chemistry and you are in the middle of a playoff chase, you don't split up your best line to get somebody going.

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01-21-2013, 12:30 PM
  #91
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If O'Reilly is not scoring he is helping the team in other ways. If Stastny and Duchene are not producing offensively they are not good for anything.

To me it is ridiculous to give Jones a 4x4 deal, and not give it to O'Reilly who is a much more important player to this team.

It is embarassing for this team to not come to terms with your 22yo leading scorer when you have one of the lowest payrolls in the league.

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01-21-2013, 12:31 PM
  #92
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Why is the Avs' reputation as tough negotiators so popular here? Wouldn't you be better off with a mngmnt. team that identifies the real important pieces and pays them accordingly. Why use a one size fits all approach to negotiating (our way or the highway). Is that really the best approach to building a winner? They obviously don't value him as highly as other teams seem to, I wonder why that is? If they end up moving him I could envision him playing for a Cup wherever he ends up, before the likes of Kronke, Sherman or Sacco taste any real success. Ownership and Mngmnt. will hold this team back not "greedy" players. People seem to think he was the beneficiary of the Lando pairing last year, perhaps it was the other way around. We will get a snapshot of that theory over the next month or so. Some folks might end up surprised that just maybe Lando ends up missing him.
Avs haven't been unfair to O'Reilly if the reported offers are accurate. A two year $3.5M/year deal would be fair for O'Reilly. O'Reilly is the first player Avs had a problem with and Avs front office doesn't seem to be the unreasonable party.

As for why the ability to keep salaries low is popular, do you really need to ask? When you start overpaying, you have to keep overpaying.

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If O'Reilly is not scoring he is helping the team in other ways. If Stastny and Duchene are not producing offensively they are not good for anything.

To me it is ridiculous to give Jones a 4x4 deal, and not give it to O'Reilly who is a much more important player to this team.

It is embarassing for this team to not come to terms with your 22yo leading scorer when you have one of the lowest payrolls in the league.
Stastny is very solid defensively and a better pker than O'Reilly is.

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01-21-2013, 12:32 PM
  #93
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If O'Reilly is not scoring he is helping the team in other ways. If Stastny and Duchene are not producing offensively they are not good for anything.

To me it is ridiculous to give Jones a 4x4 deal, and not give it to O'Reilly who is a much more important player to this team.

It is embarassing for this team to not come to terms with your 22yo leading scorer when you have one of the lowest payrolls in the league.
After O'Reilly and Landeskog, Stastny is our best defensive forward...

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01-21-2013, 12:34 PM
  #94
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If O'Reilly is not scoring he is helping the team in other ways. If Stastny and Duchene are not producing offensively they are not good for anything.
True for Duchene, totally untrue for Statsny. He's excellent on the faceoff dot and excellent defensively.

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To me it is ridiculous to give Jones a 4x4 deal, and not give it to O'Reilly who is a much more important player to this team.
UFA as opposed to RFA. Two totally different circumstances.

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It is embarassing for this team to not come to terms with your 22yo leading scorer when you have one of the lowest payrolls in the league.
The Avs' offers have been fair, nothing embarrassing about either. The Avs' payroll has no bearing on what they have offered O'Reilly.

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01-21-2013, 12:35 PM
  #95
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I like Duchene but he needs some more grit and toughness to balance his flashy style.

Give Duchene 15 DVDs of Theoren Fleury.

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01-21-2013, 12:39 PM
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This is a good point. I think we know what we are getting with Duchene. But Stastny will need to show that he is still capable of being a top center. I wouldn't be against signing RoR and trading Stastny if he doesn't step up in RoR's absence.

It is retarded that Sacco is playing Duchene against the top lines though. Recipe for disaster IMO.
Yeah, because one AWAY game, in which he doesn't get the last change, means that's the match up he's going for.

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01-21-2013, 12:40 PM
  #97
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Yeah, because one AWAY game, in which he doesn't get the last change, means that's the match up he's going for.
He got to choose starting line ups and that was his choice. Not for this thread though. I will complain about it on Tuesday when he is doing it again.

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01-21-2013, 12:42 PM
  #98
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If O'Reilly is not scoring he is helping the team in other ways. If Stastny and Duchene are not producing offensively they are not good for anything.

To me it is ridiculous to give Jones a 4x4 deal, and not give it to O'Reilly who is a much more important player to this team.

It is embarassing for this team to not come to terms with your 22yo leading scorer when you have one of the lowest payrolls in the league.
while i don't think Jones should be getting 4 mil a season. he is more in line with that salary than O'Reilly.
i love ROR, but he's had 1 good season out of 3. he's gritty, he plays a complete game and he's improving well.
but he for damn sure should not make more the EJ,Duchene or Stas(obviously the Stas one won't happen).
i get the agent asking for the most he can but the 5 mil number should be thrown in the trash, few teams would give him that at this juncture of his career.

3.5-4.25 mil(and really it should be 3.0-3.5) is his market rate and where the Avs wouldn't be overpaying to keep him.
if he continues to improve and produce 70 point seasons moving forward then he will be well worth 4 mil or better, but if he regresses or goes back to 26-30 point season he'll be a bad contract given his pay grade.

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01-21-2013, 12:46 PM
  #99
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True for Duchene, totally untrue for Statsny. He's excellent on the faceoff dot and excellent defensively.



UFA as opposed to RFA. Two totally different circumstances.



The Avs' offers have been fair, nothing embarrassing about either. The Avs' payroll has no bearing on what they have offered O'Reilly.
UFA vs RFA has some merit. But when we signed all of our players, everyone in the main threads couldn't believe how cheap they were getting guys signed. Sherman was very frugal in negotiations with the RFA's this past off season. RoR called his bluff. RoR deserves more than Jones, doesn't matter if he is a UFA or not. It is the same situation with Benn. He is IMO Dallas' best player. So why are you going to jerk him around. You are too young to make what you deserve? These are your franchise players.

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01-21-2013, 12:48 PM
  #100
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I mean using UFAs contracts and 3rd contracts as comparables is part of the problem from what we've heard here - Jones getting 4 shouldn't really have an impact on what O'reilly makes. I think a 2 year bridge deal was fair, but if ROR wanted a longer contract, I do think the Avs had more to give than 5/17 (3.4 per year) and that would be a little bit below market for a contract that's going to buy a UFA year. I think they could have realistically gone to 5/19 or 5/20 and still have it be a fair contract and a good deal.

Duchene's contract isn't 100% a comparable because I'm sure Duchene wanted to take a lower dollar/term deal to try to really cash in at the end of it. If security was more important to ROR than trying to earn 6 million down the line they should give it to him.

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