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01-21-2013, 12:50 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by bohlmeister View Post
UFA vs RFA has some merit. But when we signed all of our players, everyone in the main threads couldn't believe how cheap they were getting guys signed. Sherman was very frugal in negotiations with the RFA's this past off season. RoR called his bluff. RoR deserves more than Jones, doesn't matter if he is a UFA or not. It is the same situation with Benn. He is IMO Dallas' best player. So why are you going to jerk him around. You are too young to make what you deserve? These are your franchise players.
What the Avs' offered O'Reilly is fair. If you're going to throw out the UFA versus RFA differences then there is no point having this discussion because it surely does matter. Jones isn't a comparison.

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01-21-2013, 01:00 PM
  #102
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I like Duchene but he needs some more grit and toughness to balance his flashy style.

Give Duchene 15 DVDs of Theoren Fleury.
Said it before and will continue saying it. He needs to get his ass to Gary Roberts. Ask Steven Stamkos what he thought about Roberts gym. Still though cant pry Duchene away from his fishing rod.

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01-21-2013, 01:02 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by iceberg View Post
If O'Reilly is not scoring he is helping the team in other ways. If Stastny and Duchene are not producing offensively they are not good for anything.

To me it is ridiculous to give Jones a 4x4 deal, and not give it to O'Reilly who is a much more important player to this team.

It is embarassing for this team to not come to terms with your 22yo leading scorer when you have one of the lowest payrolls in the league.
Rrrrrright.

I absolutely cannot stand it when people compare RFA signings to UFA signings. They are not comparable in any way. UFAs are almost ALWAYS paid more because of the asset management associated to it. If you dont give it to Jones, you end up giving it to some other UFA.

RFAs still stay within the system. Even if other teams want to poach RFAs, the team will always get compensation.

The leverage in each situation is not even remotely the same, as is the situation of each individual player. So comparing their salaries is beyond out to lunch.

Secondly, for you two criticizing management for not signing this guy, how can you possibly do so when you absolutely no idea what O'Reilly's camp is asking for?
What we do know is he signed a 2yr deal in Russia. What we do know is that he requires more than his KHL deal. What we know is that hes refused two different deals which payed 3.4M and 3.5M per year.

The avs are a team that is built through youth. That youth is developing, and, in time, lots of players will be needing new contracts.

The problem with O'Reilly is we still have no idea what to expect on an offensive level, consistently, nor Stastny, nor Duchene. And therein lies the major problem. If O'Reilly continues with 50-60 pts and Duchene starts reaching in the 70+, O'Reilly's contract will be a huge sticking point to Duchene's agents.

If O'Reilly is signed to a 5M+ deal, Duchene will easily be able to command 6+. How about Landeskog. Based on O'Reilly's demands, Landeskog should already be paid as much as O'Reilly does.

Yes, I agree with you guys. Lets completely overpay one of our centers just because we want him to play. BUT, lets completely disregard all problems that can arise from it, and just sign him. Because, Oreilly, and his petulant attitude, are the types of guys you win cups with.

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01-21-2013, 01:07 PM
  #104
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RoR had two more points then Stazz with better wingers and more ice. People are acting like he had a 70-80 point season on the.blue jackets with that leading scorer argument. He essentially tied stastny and lando so shouldn't be paid like he is a leading teams scorer. Nor wil his totals be increasing losing ice to duchene. 5+ over 5 years is ludicrous. that's what seguin just got.

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01-21-2013, 01:08 PM
  #105
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Rrrrrright.

I absolutely cannot stand it when people compare RFA signings to UFA signings. They are not comparable in any way. UFAs are almost ALWAYS paid more because of the asset management associated to it. If you dont give it to Jones, you end up giving it to some other UFA.

RFAs still stay within the system. Even if other teams want to poach RFAs, the team will always get compensation.

The leverage in each situation is not even remotely the same, as is the situation of each individual player. So comparing their salaries is beyond out to lunch.

Secondly, for you two criticizing management for not signing this guy, how can you possibly do so when you absolutely no idea what O'Reilly's camp is asking for?
What we do know is he signed a 2yr deal in Russia. What we do know is that he requires more than his KHL deal. What we know is that hes refused two different deals which payed 3.4M and 3.5M per year.

The avs are a team that is built through youth. That youth is developing, and, in time, lots of players will be needing new contracts.

The problem with O'Reilly is we still have no idea what to expect on an offensive level, consistently, nor Stastny, nor Duchene. And therein lies the major problem. If O'Reilly continues with 50-60 pts and Duchene starts reaching in the 70+, O'Reilly's contract will be a huge sticking point to Duchene's agents.

If O'Reilly is signed to a 5M+ deal, Duchene will easily be able to command 6+. How about Landeskog. Based on O'Reilly's demands, Landeskog should already be paid as much as O'Reilly does.

Yes, I agree with you guys. Lets completely overpay one of our centers just because we want him to play. BUT, lets completely disregard all problems that can arise from it, and just sign him. Because, Oreilly, and his petulant attitude, are the types of guys you win cups with.
I 100 % agree with you. Great post.

Just think about the demands of Nathan McKinnon when he hits FA.

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01-21-2013, 01:14 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by danmcn12 View Post
RoR had two more points then Stazz with better wingers and more ice. People are acting like he had a 70-80 point season on the.blue jackets with that leading scorer argument. He essentially tied stastny and lando so shouldn't be paid like he is a leading teams scorer. Nor wil his totals be increasing losing ice to duchene. 5+ over 5 years is ludicrous. that's what seguin just got.
i'm trying to think of a word beyond that. eureka, it's absurd.

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01-21-2013, 01:17 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by EddieAVS View Post
Rrrrrright.

I absolutely cannot stand it when people compare RFA signings to UFA signings. They are not comparable in any way. UFAs are almost ALWAYS paid more because of the asset management associated to it. If you dont give it to Jones, you end up giving it to some other UFA.

RFAs still stay within the system. Even if other teams want to poach RFAs, the team will always get compensation.

The leverage in each situation is not even remotely the same, as is the situation of each individual player. So comparing their salaries is beyond out to lunch.

Secondly, for you two criticizing management for not signing this guy, how can you possibly do so when you absolutely no idea what O'Reilly's camp is asking for?
What we do know is he signed a 2yr deal in Russia. What we do know is that he requires more than his KHL deal. What we know is that hes refused two different deals which payed 3.4M and 3.5M per year.

The avs are a team that is built through youth. That youth is developing, and, in time, lots of players will be needing new contracts.

The problem with O'Reilly is we still have no idea what to expect on an offensive level, consistently, nor Stastny, nor Duchene. And therein lies the major problem. If O'Reilly continues with 50-60 pts and Duchene starts reaching in the 70+, O'Reilly's contract will be a huge sticking point to Duchene's agents.

If O'Reilly is signed to a 5M+ deal, Duchene will easily be able to command 6+. How about Landeskog. Based on O'Reilly's demands, Landeskog should already be paid as much as O'Reilly does.

Yes, I agree with you guys. Lets completely overpay one of our centers just because we want him to play. BUT, lets completely disregard all problems that can arise from it, and just sign him. Because, Oreilly, and his petulant attitude, are the types of guys you win cups with.
Good post, you for sure have good points and this is not an easy one.

Feels like you are bit too focused on points though.

A 60 point ROR may bring more to the table than a 70 point Duchene.

ROR is very skilled in both offensive and defensive play.

One example: ROR's takeaway stats was one of the best in the NHL, right?

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01-21-2013, 01:24 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by 21 View Post
Good post, you for sure have good points and this is not an easy one.

Feels like you are bit too focused on points though.

A 60 point ROR may bring more to the table than a 70 point Duchene.

ROR is very skilled in both offensive and defensive play.

One example: ROR's takeaway stats was one of the best in the NHL, right?
Yes they were last year, and ROR has lead the team in each of his 3 years (72 in 10-11 and 69 in 09-10). One thing to remember though is that some scorekeepers are more liberal in giving those than others. I don't know if the Avs are one of those teams.

Interesting with the takeaway stats though, Duchene in his first two years had 64 and 65 takeaways. Contrary to popular belief, Duchene is quite adequate when it comes to defense. He had a rough year last year, but his first two years he wasn't lost defensively. He will never be world class in that area, but he won't be a liability either.

A 70 point Duchene is more valuable money wise than a 60 point ROR. Team wise they would probably be about equal, maybe ROR slightly ahead if he stays on the PK.

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01-21-2013, 01:27 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by CalderKing21 View Post
while i don't think Jones should be getting 4 mil a season. he is more in line with that salary than O'Reilly.
i love ROR, but he's had 1 good season out of 3. he's gritty, he plays a complete game and he's improving well.
but he for damn sure should not make more the EJ,Duchene or Stas(obviously the Stas one won't happen).
i get the agent asking for the most he can but the 5 mil number should be thrown in the trash, few teams would give him that at this juncture of his career.
If the reports of him wanting more than 5 mil per are true, i agree it is too much. But if the Avs best offer are 3.5 mil per x 2, than it is ridiculous IMHO. To me anythink from 3.5 to 4.25 is what i think is fair.

I dont agree that he should not make more than Duchene and EJ. The reason Duchene got 3.5 is because he REGRESSED last year. And EJ has not developed as expected, he's offensive production was a disapointment last year. He is our #1 Dman but wouldnt be on most playoff teams.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hek
True for Duchene, totally untrue for Statsny. He's excellent on the faceoff dot and excellent defensively.


UFA as opposed to RFA. Two totally different circumstances.
.
Yet it is O'Reilly taking the faceoffs on the defensive zone and playing other teams top line.

He was/is a more important player/brings more to the table than Jones. Last year his line carried this team on its back almost to the playoffs, when that was suposed to be Stastny and Duchene responsability.

Now, the Avs wants him to take less money than Jones because he is a RFA and not an UFA. Doesn't seen fair to me.

The Avs have been saving every penny they could, supposedly, so they could re-sign their young RFAs when the time came. The time is now and they are not prepared to make a better offer to O'Reilly.

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01-21-2013, 01:34 PM
  #110
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I don't think RoR is holding out over a few hundred thousand. If 2 years at 4 mil would get him im sure he'd be playing right now. Which I agree is fair. But 4 mill over 5 is tougher to swallow.

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01-21-2013, 01:36 PM
  #111
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Good read, thanks RS! Friedman is one of the best journalists in hockey bar none.


If we have to trade ROR, I wouldnt mind getting Hamonic from Islanders, he is going to be one hell of a defenseman.

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01-21-2013, 01:41 PM
  #112
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To what end though? If they don't re-sign this guy I don't see any light at the end of the tunnel. He is exactly what they preach they are trying to build their team around. If they legitimately want to win a Stanley Cup and build a contender, you NEED players like RoR and Landeskog. If they trade him for more bit pieces I don't see this cycle ending. They will develop talent, then let them walk because they won't to pony up.

I don't think we can afford to lose RoR. Even at 5 million a season. I would sign him for that for 8 years. HE is too smart of a player (hockey IQ) and too committed to make it a bad deal IMO. You don't let character players like RoR go at 22.
If he's traded, we'll get a very nice return...a return where the other team can't believe what they gave up, where both fan bases are pissed off.

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If the reports of him wanting more than 5 mil per are true, i agree it is too much. But if the Avs best offer are 3.5 mil per x 2, than it is ridiculous IMHO. To me anythink from 3.5 to 4.25 is what i think is fair.
So...if I'm reading this right, a $3,500,000 salary is RIDICULOUS but something starting at $3,500,000 is fair?

Great post.

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01-21-2013, 01:42 PM
  #113
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Yet it is O'Reilly taking the faceoffs on the defensive zone and playing other teams top line.
Which isn't unusual for a lot of team's third line centers. O'Reilly's defensive abilities are starting to take on mythical proportions with some fans.

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He was/is a more important player/brings more to the table than Jones. Last year his line carried this team on its back almost to the playoffs, when that was suposed to be Stastny and Duchene responsability.
While he did outscore Stastny by two points over the entire season, the idea he put the team on his back and almost took them to the playoffs is revisionist history. Over the final quarter of the season Stastny's line was getting the top offensive minutes. Stastny also outscored O'Reilly over those games. O'Reilly disappeared down that stretch.

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Originally Posted by iceberg View Post
Now, the Avs wants him to take less money than Jones because he is a RFA and not an UFA. Doesn't seen fair to me.

The Avs have been saving every penny they could, supposedly, so they could re-sign their young RFAs when the time came. The time is now and they are not prepared to make a better offer to O'Reilly.
This is the last time I'll even argue this because it's just falling on deaf ears, there is a significant difference between RFA and UFA status. It doesn't matter if it's fair or not with regard to Jones, O'Reilly isn't an unrestricted free agent. He doesn't have the leverage of other team's offers. And what the Avs' have offered is completely fair. The two year $7 million offer is not a low ball offer by any means except to some fans here.

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01-21-2013, 01:42 PM
  #114
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Talking about Duchene with Avalanche fans is not an easy one, that's for sure! ;-)

Even though last season was a painful shock he is still widely regarded as the next one in Colorado, a big fan favorit even do Landeskog also quickly became popular.

I hope you guys are right, that Duchene becomes a true offensive star because the Avs for sure needs that.

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01-21-2013, 01:45 PM
  #115
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Rrrrrright.

I absolutely cannot stand it when people compare RFA signings to UFA signings. They are not comparable in any way. UFAs are almost ALWAYS paid more because of the asset management associated to it. If you dont give it to Jones, you end up giving it to some other UFA.

RFAs still stay within the system. Even if other teams want to poach RFAs, the team will always get compensation.

The leverage in each situation is not even remotely the same, as is the situation of each individual player. So comparing their salaries is beyond out to lunch.

Secondly, for you two criticizing management for not signing this guy, how can you possibly do so when you absolutely no idea what O'Reilly's camp is asking for?
What we do know is he signed a 2yr deal in Russia. What we do know is that he requires more than his KHL deal. What we know is that hes refused two different deals which payed 3.4M and 3.5M per year.

The avs are a team that is built through youth. That youth is developing, and, in time, lots of players will be needing new contracts.

The problem with O'Reilly is we still have no idea what to expect on an offensive level, consistently, nor Stastny, nor Duchene. And therein lies the major problem. If O'Reilly continues with 50-60 pts and Duchene starts reaching in the 70+, O'Reilly's contract will be a huge sticking point to Duchene's agents.
If Duchene starts reaching 70+ pay him acordingly... I bet if Duchene has two 70+ points seasons, he will demand a contract around 6M, regardless of how much O'Reilly will be making, he'll have other comparables around the league. Or do you expect him to take whatever the Avs offer just because he will be a RFA?

Quote:
If O'Reilly is signed to a 5M+ deal, Duchene will easily be able to command 6+. How about Landeskog. Based on O'Reilly's demands, Landeskog should already be paid as much as O'Reilly does.
As i said in my post, 5M+ is too much, i agree. But what Landeskog has to do with it??

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01-21-2013, 01:49 PM
  #116
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Good post, you for sure have good points and this is not an easy one.

Feels like you are bit too focused on points though.

A 60 point ROR may bring more to the table than a 70 point Duchene.

ROR is very skilled in both offensive and defensive play.

One example: ROR's takeaway stats was one of the best in the NHL, right?
Its not that im basing this solely on points. I understand what ROR brings to the table. I understand he is our best defensive forward and arguably our best 2 way forward. What we dont know however is where he stands offensively compared to the other two.

While points may not be always the most important factor, and I agree, a 60pt ROR CAN be more useful that a 70pt Duchene...

The problem is that in this league, points are the driving force behind the $ paid. If you get more pts than other guys, its likely youll get more money. Thats why the offensive output is such an important factor in this decision to sign ROR. And thats why a bridge contract, of 2 years, is a perfect chance for the team to properly evaluate what they have in all three centers. Because unfortunately, theres question marks for all three and if ROR could just swallow his 1 yr breakout season, and understand that its in the best interest of the team, and probably for himself, to sign a 2 year deal to officially PROVE he can be counted on year in and year out as an offensive catalyst.

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01-21-2013, 01:54 PM
  #117
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If Duchene starts reaching 70+ pay him acordingly... I bet if Duchene has two 70+ points seasons, he will demand a contract around 6M, regardless of how much O'Reilly will be making, he'll have other comparables around the league. Or do you expect him to take whatever the Avs offer just because he will be a RFA?



As i said in my post, 5M+ is too much, i agree. But what Landeskog has to do with it??
What does Landeskog have to do with it???

When players come up for contract extensions, the absolute first thing that agents look at is...
1- How theyve compared to their teammates
2- How vital are they to their team (ie. depth, what role in the following seasons will they have)
3- Other comparable RFA contracts.

Because the avs have so many players who are generally in the same age category and contract status, all of their contracts become comparables.

If you sign ROR to 5M+, he instantly becomes the salary comparable for all forwards on the team.

If ROR does not continue his upward offensive trend, or gulp, possibly decreases it, how do you pay your other forwards accordingly?

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01-21-2013, 01:59 PM
  #118
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Talking about Duchene with Avalanche fans is not an easy one, that's for sure! ;-)

Even though last season was a painful shock he is still widely regarded as the next one in Colorado, a big fan favorit even do Landeskog also quickly became popular.

I hope you guys are right, that Duchene becomes a true offensive star because the Avs for sure needs that.
Exactly... people keep talking about how O'Reilly has to prove himself offensively but forget how terrible Duchene regresed last year, how his spin move would drive everybody crazy, and how Duchene has not found consistent chemistry with anyone other than Fleishmann.

I'm an Avs fan and i hope last year was a fluke and he'll have a great season and maybe lead this team in points, but i'm not sure yet.

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01-21-2013, 02:00 PM
  #119
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Simply put, ROR is not worth 5 mil.

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01-21-2013, 02:00 PM
  #120
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Its not that im basing this solely on points. I understand what ROR brings to the table. I understand he is our best defensive forward and arguably our best 2 way forward. What we dont know however is where he stands offensively compared to the other two.

While points may not be always the most important factor, and I agree, a 60pt ROR CAN be more useful that a 70pt Duchene...

The problem is that in this league, points are the driving force behind the $ paid. If you get more pts than other guys, its likely youll get more money. Thats why the offensive output is such an important factor in this decision to sign ROR. And thats why a bridge contract, of 2 years, is a perfect chance for the team to properly evaluate what they have in all three centers. Because unfortunately, theres question marks for all three and if ROR could just swallow his 1 yr breakout season, and understand that its in the best interest of the team, and probably for himself, to sign a 2 year deal to officially PROVE he can be counted on year in and year out as an offensive catalyst.
We are getting closer, good post.

Perhaps $4 million/year contract is what it takes to get him signed.

I have difficulties to believe that he is really asking for $5 million/year, sources?

O'Reilly hired this super star agent Don Meehan asking for star money, perhaps he got a bit too cocky but he is still just a human being.

Hmmm, as a Swede I recall Meehan being agent of Lidstrom, Forsberg had Baizley.

I wouldn't be too surprised if another team took the chance though but O'Reilly may end up in an extremely awkward situation, it's pure gambling on the cost of his Colorado fanbase and team loyalty.


Last edited by 21: 01-21-2013 at 02:05 PM.
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01-21-2013, 02:06 PM
  #121
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Exactly... people keep talking about how O'Reilly has to prove himself offensively but forget how terrible Duchene regresed last year, how his spin move would drive everybody crazy, and how Duchene has not found consistent chemistry with anyone other than Fleishmann.

I'm an Avs fan and i hope last year was a fluke and he'll have a great season and maybe lead this team in points, but i'm not sure yet.
I realize your love of O'Reilly is most likely what is causing you to cherry pick your stats, but if you look at their entire bodies of work Duchene's points per game and total points are much higher than O'Reilly's.

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01-21-2013, 02:06 PM
  #122
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What does Landeskog have to do with it???

When players come up for contract extensions, the absolute first thing that agents look at is...
1- How theyve compared to their teammates
2- How vital are they to their team (ie. depth, what role in the following seasons will they have)
3- Other comparable RFA contracts.

Because the avs have so many players who are generally in the same age category and contract status, all of their contracts become comparables.

If you sign ROR to 5M+, he instantly becomes the salary comparable for all forwards on the team.

If ROR does not continue his upward offensive trend, or gulp, possibly decreases it, how do you pay your other forwards accordingly?
Eddie you wrote that "Based on O'Reilly's demands, Landeskog should already be paid as much as O'Reilly does."

Let's say ROR sign a 5M+ salary (which btw i agree is too much) how does that affects Landeskog right now??

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01-21-2013, 02:10 PM
  #123
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If the reports of him wanting more than 5 mil per are true, i agree it is too much. But if the Avs best offer are 3.5 mil per x 2, than it is ridiculous IMHO. To me anythink from 3.5 to 4.25 is what i think is fair.

I dont agree that he should not make more than Duchene and EJ. The reason Duchene got 3.5 is because he REGRESSED last year. And EJ has not developed as expected, he's offensive production was a disapointment last year. He is our #1 Dman but wouldnt be on most playoff teams.
regressed or not, Duchene has two good season out of 3 to ROR's 1 out of 3. he shouldn't make more than Duchene.
EJ is around a 26-30 pts scorer for his career, his peak year was 39 in his rookie season.
so i don't think he did anything other than what was reasonably expected from him last season.

you don't pay a guy more money than others because he has one season as your leading scorer when other guys who put together multiple seasons of solid play are making less on recent contract extensions.
that's bad for business.

i'm a huge ROR fan and think he's been our most complete player for a while now. but my offer would stop at 4.25(more than likely 3.75) if i got that far and it would have to be 7 years so as to avoid this nonsense again.
3.5 for two years is saying, you did it last season now prove it for two more years and we'll reward you. he could have taken that deal.
it's a raise and about his market value based upon the previous seasons production. he's not worth 5 million and if the Avs pay him that we will be in trouble in the future.

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01-21-2013, 02:13 PM
  #124
R S
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Originally Posted by 21 View Post
Well, well, they are different type of players, we can all agree on that.

Anyway, for me RoR is better and more valuable player than Statsny and Duchene.

The toughness, grit, heart, offensive and defensive play RoR and Lando showed together was beautiful, extremely hard working players. If you combine thes ingrediences with some more offensive talanted players then you have a winning team.

But right now we don't have RoR and Duchen and Statsny have lots of thing to prove regarding offensive capability.
Why was this quoting me? I never said those things.

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01-21-2013, 02:15 PM
  #125
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I realized your love of O'Reilly is most likely what is causing you to cherry pick your stats, but if you look at their entire bodies of work Duchene's points per game and total points are much higher than O'Reilly's.
hek, i'm not in love with anybody, lets try to have a mature conversation, ok? I dont think i have disrespected anybody here.

To me, the reason Duchene signed his contract extension so quicky its because he lost all his leverage after last season.

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