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This team will not succeed as long as David Desharnais is a top 6 center.

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Old
01-21-2013, 10:48 AM
  #226
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Trying hard but failing to understand how Desharnais links to success more than anyone on this team. Also, this ''intimidating'' factor you're telling us is irrelevant for a center.

What this team lacks, IMO, is a real top-end talent upfront (maybe Galchenyuk?) and a more-balanced defense.

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01-21-2013, 10:50 AM
  #227
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It's not a surprise for anybody that desharnais isn't a top center. Plekanec is an elite #2.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't resign him.

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01-21-2013, 11:05 AM
  #228
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DD gave 60+ points to both Cole and Pacioretty last season. Both has 4,5 M$/year contract. DD will ask a contract around 7-10 M$/2 years in my opinion. Maybe less each year for a longer contract.

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01-21-2013, 11:10 AM
  #229
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So am I. I am very worried about our forwards, now and for the next 2 years. We look awful at forward. Collberg? Kristo? Gallagher? Bozon, Hudon? Get real. Every single wing prospect we have is 2nd line upside at best. Please. It's a ****ing joke. Dream on if you think these guys are the answer. Sorry to be neg, but that is what I think.

Kristo is a perfect example. The guy is like 22 and chooses to play NCAA. Why? Because he's not good enough. If he was, he'd be playing for us right now. I can't stand his lack of drive.

Collberg CANNOT SCORE in Swedish elite at age 18, probably 19 now. Drafted early second NHL. Literally cannot score goals. Ten minutes a game? So what? It's a ****ing joke. What the **** is that? Do you think that is the sign of a future NHL star? It is not. Oh, he's playing against men. Yeah. **** 24 year old journeymen who were not drafted early second NHL round. He should be killing that league already. He is not.

No one is getting it here. 22 is OLD now. Almost all really good NHL players are making it by 21. The league and the game has changed, and our prospects are not good enough compared to the really good 20 year olds making it right now.

And our 18-19 year olds should be showing a hell of a lot more than our 18-19 year olds are showing. Guy ****ing Carbonneau scored 140 and 180 points his last 2 years in junior. Guy Carbonneau. Higher scoring then? Yes. But give me a break. And we get excited at Hudon's 70 point pace?

I have zero confidence in our forward prospects as future stars in this league. Zero. Draft another top 5 forward for god's sake.

I'm actually totally unimpressed with TT's drafting of forwards, and I always have been. He has not drafted one STAR forward for the Habs, EVER, except Gally at no. 3 last summer, and Pax, who is very good, but not a star. And people here defend him. ****ing hell. He has missed a SHI-TLOAD of great forwards the last 10 years. He really has. He should have been fired because of the Fischer pick, absolutely gassed. That pick killed this team.

I don't support TT on these boards, and I should not. If last year's and this year's draft does not produce one top line forward picked lower than 10th, Timmins should be gassed. I've had enough of him. Louis Leblanc for god's sake. My sister is stronger.

We need another top 5 forward pick this year, for sure. Because TT will not be finding a second round forward star, you can bet on that.
you feeling ok?

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01-21-2013, 11:24 AM
  #230
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All depends if you want to burn a year on his contract with only a 48 game season, or save it for a 82 game season. While some may be interested in doing it if he is doing good, others wouldn't (such as myself). IMO take the Scheifele approach and if he is doing good send him down and bring him in next season. But in the end its MT and MB who decide, and could very well just keep him around if he starts lighting things up
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In the amount of games he should have in the majors? As in 5 to 10 games? Highly doubtful. But even if he did...how many times have we seen someone just start lighting up the net in the first month of the year and just disappear for the rest of the season? Pretty much every year. I rather have him develop properly in the minors. It's not as if the team is going anywhere this year. If the team isn't going anywhere far this year why rush him?

My personal choice is to send him back to Sarnia to play out the year as the go to guy. But I am sure the coaching staff in Montreal knows better than any of us. If they feel he belongs, and it is better for his development, they'd do it. And if that is the case and he does very well, why not trade someone to make the space for him?

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01-21-2013, 11:38 AM
  #231
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Agreed. We can't keep everyone unfortunately and the best top 3 would be Pleks, Galchenyuk, and Eller.

Lots of people are saying DD is good with anyone, yet...these people are afraid of separating DD from his protection (Cole and Pacioretty). Our top 3 lines would be better if we spread out Cole and Pacioretty. If DD is that good...give him Bourque.
Fine, give him Bourque. And when he still produces, will you stop spewing this stuff?

He'd probably have a better chance to produce with Bourque based on our he played last game.

Go with;

Pacioretty - Plekanec - Cole
Galchenyuk - Desharnais - Bourque
Moen - Eller - Gionta
Prust - White - Armstrong

PS. On a completely unrelated note, I hate Pleks and Gionta together. They both enter the zone and shoot. So hard to sustain any pressure with absolutely zero creativity.

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01-21-2013, 12:25 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
On a completely unrelated note, I hate Pleks and Gionta together. They both enter the zone and shoot. So hard to sustain any pressure with absolutely zero creativity.
That is a great observation.

As for Gionta, there are a lot of things I like about the guy... his speed, his hustle, his shot, his leadership but the guy has no hockey sense or offensive imagination. If he can't shoot the puck he has no idea what to do with it.

I'm not advocating trading him but our expectations should be for something like 25 goals and 20 assists over the course of a full year, which isn't far from his career averages. Those aren't great numbers and they tell you that his linemates are going to score a lot.

On the other hand, if we were out of the playoff picture at the deadline and another team was willing to pay up, I would certainly consider trading him. He would fit much better on a contender than on a team that is looking two or three years down the road.

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01-21-2013, 12:38 PM
  #233
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You guys are missing the point.

It's not that DD is a bad player. It's not that we hate him. It's not that hes a freaking midjet.

It's that he stops the progression of our damn 8B prospects.
It's that he could be just as good on the wing.
It's that both Patches and Cole are on his wings.
It's that he's not as good defensively as Eller and Plekanec.
It's that it's a damn team game and that you need a good team to suceed, not a good line.
It's a fast game that happens to be played in all three zones.

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01-21-2013, 12:38 PM
  #234
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I say move Cole to Plekanec's line, Bourque to DD's line and Gionta to Eller's line.

Balanced attack.

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01-21-2013, 12:48 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
You guys are missing the point.

It's not that DD is a bad player. It's not that we hate him. It's not that hes a freaking midjet.

It's that he stops the progression of our damn 8B prospects.
It's that he could be just as good on the wing.
It's that both Patches and Cole are on his wings.
It's that he's not as good defensively as Eller and Plekanec.
It's that it's a damn team game and that you need a good team to suceed, not a good line.
It's a fast game that happens to be played in all three zones.
Disagree, I don't think he could be good on the wing, or at-least as good, while he is strong, he isn't good around the boards as other small guys like Gionta, also he is better in open ice in the middle where he is creative.

Also so what if he plays with Patches and Cole, Cole had his best season playing with DD, and you could also say that Patches career took over when he was paired with DD (started in the AHL).

Also while he isn't as good as Plek and Eller, he isn't a liability in his own end.

For my the big question mark, is after last season teams have more of an idea what DD likes to do, and can he keep his pace as last year by adjusting.

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01-21-2013, 12:53 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
PS. On a completely unrelated note, I hate Pleks and Gionta together. They both enter the zone and shoot. So hard to sustain any pressure with absolutely zero creativity.
I think they expected Galchenyuk to provide the creativity there. It can work... but in 2 years!

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01-21-2013, 12:56 PM
  #237
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DD gave 60+ points to both Cole and Pacioretty last season. Both has 4,5 M$/year contract. DD will ask a contract around 7-10 M$/2 years in my opinion. Maybe less each year for a longer contract.
Meh, I still say Patches and Cole gave DD 60 points, but whatever. This team really won't go anywhere with him leaned on in the top 6. I personally want to see Moen, Gionta, Desharnais, and Bourque all replaced asap. Expensively redundant (we're paying $4.3 million to have Moen AND Prust... and Prust is better), expensively inadequate (wonder if Gionta ever scores 20 goals again, and is that worth $5 million anyway?), potentially far too expensive (I'll cry is someone like Desharnais ever costs this team more than $1 million), and expensively inconsistent (Bourque makes more than average on the Habs with his $3.3 million/$70 total, and has certainly been less than average), respectively.

Basically, three acquisitions that should never have even happened (and ended up as some attempt at a longer term solution than they should have been), imo, and a guy who no doubt is going to get way more of a pay raise at the end of the year than I think he deserves. A short season like this with such low expectations would be the ideal time to clean house, and those are some of the things I would certainly attempt in Bergevin's position. That's minimum $11 million cleaned up in cap space right there.

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01-21-2013, 12:56 PM
  #238
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Desharnais is benefiting by playing with Pacioretty who is a superstar (the same guy who made Gomez look like a #1 center).
Plecanek centered Cole and Pacioretty for one game last season, and they each had 2 or 3 points dominating the first place Canucks. They never played together since then.
The notion of Pacioretty benefiting from playing with Desharnais is laughable!

edit: 2 goals for Cole, 2 assists for Pacioretty, +2 for all 3 players
http://canadiens.nhl.com/club/boxsco...?id=2011021024

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01-21-2013, 12:56 PM
  #239
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DD is this team's version of Oleg Petrov. He won't be around long.

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01-21-2013, 01:01 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by habs03 View Post
Disagree, I don't think he could be good on the wing, or at-least as good, while he is strong, he isn't good around the boards as other small guys like Gionta, also he is better in open ice in the middle where he is creative.

Also so what if he plays with Patches and Cole, Cole had his best season playing with DD, and you could also say that Patches career took over when he was paired with DD (started in the AHL).

Also while he isn't as good as Plek and Eller, he isn't a liability in his own end.

For my the big question mark, is after last season teams have more of an idea what DD likes to do, and can he keep his pace as last year by adjusting.
Missing the point, you all do it.
Why is it bad that Cole and Patches are on the same line? We have no quality winger outside of them. I'm not saying this to prove that DD is not suited for the NHL and that he should return play in the ECHL...
DD IS a liability in his own end. Denying this is like denying the heliocentric theory. He's not strong on the FO he's not strong on the puck, he's lost in his own zone.. Now I know this doesnt happen every time he's in his zone, wich is why you may not see it, but it happens enough for me to be doubting his abilities.

And DD would be a better winger than Eller for starters, wich means we have two good players instead of on good(dd) and one that is completely lost(eller). Also, he is actually winning most of his boards fights. + This is alot easier to get better at.

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01-21-2013, 01:02 PM
  #241
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
1 of Plekanec/Desharnais can not be here next year. Pretty clear to me. It's not a knock on either one, but you can not be a strong team by being so small down the middle on the top 2 lines. Plekanec has 3 more years @ 5 M per year. It's probably what he would get on the UFA market if he was a UFA.

Desharnais will be a RFA this summer and he's 1 year away from UFA. The time to make the decision is this summer.

Galchenyuk must play center next year. Period. The longer we put off him learning as a NHL center, the more time it will take for this team to someday be a contender.

Really ****ing tired of being a shrimp team down the middle. We've gone from Koivu-Perreault/Gilmour to Koivu-Ribeiro to Koivu-Plekanec to Plekanec-Gomez to what we have now. Enough is enough.
We in Edmonton feel your pain. Horcoff, Nugent Hopkins and Gagner. I agree 100% you need size down the middle to be effective.

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01-21-2013, 01:03 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Meh, I still say Patches and Cole gave DD 60 points, but whatever. This team really won't go anywhere with him leaned on in the top 6. I personally want to see Moen, Gionta, Desharnais, and Bourque all replaced asap. Expensively redundant (we're paying $4.3 million to have Moen AND Prust... and Prust is better), expensively inadequate (wonder if Gionta ever scores 20 goals again, and is that worth $5 million anyway?), potentially far too expensive (I'll cry is someone like Desharnais ever costs this team more than $1 million), and expensively inconsistent (Bourque makes more than average on the Habs with his $3.3 million/$70 total, and has certainly been less than average), respectively.

Basically, three acquisitions that should never have even happened (and ended up as some attempt at a longer term solution than they should have been), imo, and a guy who no doubt is going to get way more of a pay raise at the end of the year than I think he deserves. A short season like this with such low expectations would be the ideal time to clean house, and those are some of the things I would certainly attempt in Bergevin's position. That's minimum $11 million cleaned up in cap space right there.
You'll cry if we pay Desharnais more than $1M? Oh my. I don't even have words for this.

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Originally Posted by Habs Junkie View Post
Desharnais is benefiting by playing with Pacioretty who is a superstar (the same guy who made Gomez look like a #1 center).
Plecanek centered Cole and Pacioretty for one game last season, and they each had 2 or 3 points dominating the first place Canucks. They never played together since then.
The notion of Pacioretty benefiting from playing with Desharnais is laughable!

edit: 2 goals for Cole, 2 assists for Pacioretty, +2 for all 3 players
http://canadiens.nhl.com/club/boxsco...?id=2011021024
You're right. It's an individual game. No one benefits from anyone.

Where do you come up with this stuff?

All three players benefited playing with each other. Dear god.

Either way, I can do the same thing as you. Desharnais played with Cammalleri for two games last year and made him look like a 1st line winger again. Oh snap.

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01-21-2013, 01:11 PM
  #243
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I agree, but Desharnais is a sacred cow here, so you won't have many on your side. I like him and don't want to get rid of him. I think he should move to wing eventually.
Desharnais was never a sacred cow here... if a player earned it the hard way its him. Before camp started last year, a majority of people argued that there was some hype around him because he was french (pushed by the whole RDS nazi propaganda that makes people do EXACTLY what RDS wants) and that he wouldn't even make the team. If one guy earned his spot on this team - and its his to lose to a better player - its him.

Now the ''what if'' rethoric is endless ... but as long as he progresses well , who knows what kind of player he will be in 2-3 years ? When you see a guy steadily getting better and better ... saying he's going to be a reason why this team will lose down the road is quite depressing.

its like saying with subban on the top 2 pairs we won't win a cup. just silly, even if it ends up being true. correlation=/= causation.those statements are based on gut feelings... and people should stop trying to turn them into arguments.

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01-21-2013, 01:14 PM
  #244
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You'll cry if we pay Desharnais more than $1M? Oh my. I don't even have words for this.
Yes, but mostly because it means we retained him and tried to find a spot for him in the lineup instead of replacing him and trying to move forward and get better. I would have preferred to stick with Tanguay this whole time if we were just going to put a soft playmaking winger in the middle and run with it. Yes, I think Desharnais is "soft", yes, I think he should be a winger if anything, and yes, I think Tanguay is much better than Desharnais and always has been. But I still would have replaced Tanguay, too, so... Desharnais obviously still has no place on my Habs roster.

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01-21-2013, 01:15 PM
  #245
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Originally Posted by THE HOFF View Post
Desharnais was never a sacred cow here... if a player earned it the hard way its him. Before camp started last year, a majority of people argued that there was some hype around him because he was french (pushed by the whole RDS nazi propaganda that makes people do EXACTLY what RDS wants) and that he wouldn't even make the team. If one guy earned his spot on this team - and its his to lose to a better player - its him.

Now the ''what if'' rethoric is endless ... but as long as he progresses well , who knows what kind of player he will be in 2-3 years ? When you see a guy steadily getting better and better ... saying he's going to be a reason why this team will lose down the road is quite depressing.

its like saying with subban on the top 2 pairs we won't win a cup. just silly, even if it ends up being true. correlation=/= causation.those statements are based on gut feelings... and people should stop trying to turn them into arguments.
You just said everything I was trying to say in a much more direct statement. Nice.

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Yes, but mostly because it means we retained him and tried to find a spot for him in the lineup instead of replacing him and trying to move forward and get better. I would have preferred to stick with Tanguay this whole time if we were just going to put a soft playmaking winger in the middle and run with it. Yes, I think Desharnais is "soft", yes, I think he should be a winger if anything, and yes, I think Tanguay is much better than Desharnais and always has been. But I still would have replaced Tanguay, too, so... Desharnais obviously still has no place on my Habs roster.
Desharnais and soft? A guy who goes to the dirty areas and wins around 50% of his puck battles is far from soft. Small? Yes, definitely. Soft? No. Soft a is a term that is thrown around far too much. Sure, DD gets knocked off the puck but its because he tries to create something instead of doing what Plekanec and Gionta do - shoot a meaningless shot on net that 75% of the time gets deflected into the crowd or away from the net.

I like Tanguay a lot (always have from his days in Colorado), but he was the definition of a perimeter player. Not even close to the same type of player that Desharnais is.

Desharnais has a place on the Habs roster and he'll be here for a long time. He's only getting better and better (The guy has like 130 games of NHL experience and already moved up from a 4th liner to a 1st liner by forcing his way through). He's going to have a great NHL career and best of all, it's going to be in Montreal AND on a winning team.


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01-21-2013, 01:17 PM
  #246
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You'll cry if we pay Desharnais more than $1M? Oh my. I don't even have words for this.


You're right. It's an individual game. No one benefits from anyone.

Where do you come up with this stuff?

All three players benefited playing with each other. Dear god.

Either way, I can do the same thing as you. Desharnais played with Cammalleri for two games last year and made him look like a 1st line winger again. Oh snap.
Good comeback there.

Don't put words in my mouth, please. You're argument is like saying Sidney Crosby benefits from playing with Pascal Dupuis.


Last edited by One Man Rock Band: 01-21-2013 at 01:25 PM. Reason: baiting
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01-21-2013, 01:18 PM
  #247
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Originally Posted by THE HOFF View Post
Desharnais was never a sacred cow here... if a player earned it the hard way its him. Before camp started last year, a majority of people argued that there was some hype around him because he was french (pushed by the whole RDS nazi propaganda that makes people do EXACTLY what RDS wants) and that he wouldn't even make the team. If one guy earned his spot on this team - and its his to lose to a better player - its him.

Now the ''what if'' rethoric is endless ... but as long as he progresses well , who knows what kind of player he will be in 2-3 years ? When you see a guy steadily getting better and better ... saying he's going to be a reason why this team will lose down the road is quite depressing.

its like saying with subban on the top 2 pairs we won't win a cup. just silly, even if it ends up being true. correlation=/= causation.those statements are based on gut feelings... and people should stop trying to turn them into arguments.
Nice arguments and you've presented them nicely too.

Although I dont agree at all.

DD is not as himself the reason why it will lose, its the place in the team or the importance he holds that will make us lose.

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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Yes, but mostly because it means we retained him and tried to find a spot for him in the lineup instead of replacing him and trying to move forward and get better. I would have preferred to stick with Tanguay this whole time if we were just going to put a soft playmaking winger in the middle and run with it. Yes, I think Desharnais is "soft", yes, I think he should be a winger if anything, and yes, I think Tanguay is much better than Desharnais and always has been. But I still would have replaced Tanguay, too, so... Desharnais obviously still has no place on my Habs roster.
Maybe a bit drastic.

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01-21-2013, 01:27 PM
  #248
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Good comeback there.

Don't put words in my mouth, please. You're argument is like saying Sidney Crosby benefits from playing with Pascal Dupuis.
How does that make any sense at all? Oh wait, it doesn't. The only season Dupuis had any success is the year that Crosby barely played. Every other year, Dupuis posted less than 40-points. Desharnais was on pace to do that playing with the likes of Tom Pyatt, Mathieu Darche, Benoit Pouliot, and Ryan White. Nice try though.

I'm all for splitting DD up from Patches and Cole because all that will happen is that he will prove my point. A point he's been proving for me for 4-5 years.

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01-21-2013, 01:30 PM
  #249
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Missing the point, you all do it.
Why is it bad that Cole and Patches are on the same line? We have no quality winger outside of them. I'm not saying this to prove that DD is not suited for the NHL and that he should return play in the ECHL...
DD IS a liability in his own end. Denying this is like denying the heliocentric theory. He's not strong on the FO he's not strong on the puck, he's lost in his own zone.. Now I know this doesnt happen every time he's in his zone, wich is why you may not see it, but it happens enough for me to be doubting his abilities.

And DD would be a better winger than Eller for starters, wich means we have two good players instead of on good(dd) and one that is completely lost(eller). Also, he is actually winning most of his boards fights. + This is alot easier to get better at.
I think Gionta is a decent winger, but ok, so your saying team is lacking wingers, what does that have to do with DD, should the tittle be, "this team can't succed with these wingers"

DD was better than both Eller and Plek on faceoffs last year. And while he isn't great in his own end, he was +9 and playing with two guys that are not known for therer two way game in Cole and Patches.

I guess I disagree with you on who would be a better wing, Eller or DD, size in todays NHL is more important on the wing than C, with all the forecheck and board work, and it seems like every time he has been on Eller has been used as a winger, with St Louis they tried him at wing, with the National team they put him on wing, so its not like the idea is coming out of nowhere.

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01-21-2013, 01:32 PM
  #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
How does that make any sense at all? Oh wait, it doesn't. The only season Dupuis had any success is the year that Crosby barely played. Every other year, Dupuis posted less than 40-points. Desharnais was on pace to do that playing with the likes of Tom Pyatt, Mathieu Darche, Benoit Pouliot, and Ryan White. Nice try though.

I'm all for splitting DD up from Patches and Cole because all that will happen is that he will prove my point. A point he's been proving for me for 4-5 years.
Yes let's start inventing stats to prove our point.

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