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This team will not succeed as long as David Desharnais is a top 6 center.

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01-21-2013, 01:34 PM
  #251
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Originally Posted by habs03 View Post
Disagree, I don't think he could be good on the wing, or at-least as good, while he is strong, he isn't good around the boards as other small guys like Gionta, also he is better in open ice in the middle where he is creative.

Also so what if he plays with Patches and Cole, Cole had his best season playing with DD, and you could also say that Patches career took over when he was paired with DD (started in the AHL).

Also while he isn't as good as Plek and Eller, he isn't a liability in his own end.

For my the big question mark, is after last season teams have more of an idea what DD likes to do, and can he keep his pace as last year by adjusting.
This is the problem. If he's not going to be good on the wing, how can he possibly be expected to be good in front of the net?

The problem with giving him both Patches and Cole is that we lose size on our other lines because of it. There's no balance in the squad. If we had several tough wingers over 6'0" this isn't a concern, but we don't.

He may also not be a liability in his own end but he's not at the level of Pleks and Eller. So by playing him on our #1 line, our two best scorers are stuck in our zone more often than if they were centered by one of them.

We need to spread the wealth so to speak. We can't put DD and Gionta on the same line, yet we have to split up Patches and Cole. We're doomed otherwise. That's the biggest problem I have. The way I see it:

-Patches and Cole shouldn't play together. We have to spread the wealth but we can't because DD needs two big wingers.
-DD shouldn't be #1 center.
-Pleks and Gio shouldn't play together. They're forced to because of our current #1 line.
-Neither Pleks or Gio should be paired with DD. Because of their size.

Look at all of the constraints. That's why DD hinders us. It's not that he's a bad player.

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01-21-2013, 01:35 PM
  #252
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The same people who ran Koivu out of town because he's so small and can't be a #1 center want Desharnais to be the franchise. News flash: Desharnais can't even hold Koivu's jock strap!

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01-21-2013, 01:35 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
Maybe a bit drastic.
Maybe, but you can't be a centre in today's game and have zero, nay, negative physical impact down the middle of the ice unless you're far more talented. Look at how other teams are changing around us, and look how surprised those who thought we looked good enough on paper were, when we slammed into the basement.

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01-21-2013, 01:36 PM
  #254
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Yes let's start inventing stats to prove our point.
What are you even talking about? What stats did I "invent?"

Dupuis' highest point totals before last season in Pittsburgh was 38. He had like 57-points last year, but Crosby played just 22-games.

And Desharnais was on pace for 42-points in his "rookie" season playing with those players.


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01-21-2013, 01:39 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by habs03 View Post
I think Gionta is a decent winger, but ok, so your saying team is lacking wingers, what does that have to do with DD, should the tittle be, "this team can't succed with these wingers"

DD was better than both Eller and Plek on faceoffs last year. And while he isn't great in his own end, he was +9 and playing with two guys that are not known for therer two way game in Cole and Patches.

I guess I disagree with you on who would be a better wing, Eller or DD, size in todays NHL is more important on the wing than C, with all the forecheck and board work, and it seems like every time he has been on Eller has been used as a winger, with St Louis they tried him at wing, with the National team they put him on wing, so its not like the idea is coming out of nowhere.
Gionta is decent. He's a 40-50 points player. Far from Cole/patches quality.
+/- is flawed. 1st line was used in sofff matchups. If DD was a good defensive player, then he would have a +- of 20. Not 9. Giving up 50 goals against soffff matchups isnt a thing I would mention on a DD is good defensively argument.

I'll go on with a humoristic example.. If every body tries eating their poop, would you?

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01-21-2013, 01:40 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Maybe, but you can't be a centre in today's game and have zero, nay, negative physical impact down the middle of the ice unless you're far more talented. Look at how other teams are changing around us, and look how surprised those who thought we looked good enough on paper were, when we slammed into the basement.
How many people thought we looked good on paper without Markov? Especially after moving Cammalleri and Gionta getting hurt for the season? Also, I don't think anyone expected Gomez to be as terrible as was either.

Weird how DD has impressive stats against Boston and Philadelphia, despite them being generally considered the most physical Eastern Conference teams.

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01-21-2013, 01:42 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
The way I see it:

-Patches and Cole shouldn't play together. We have to spread the wealth but we can't because DD needs two big wingers.
-DD shouldn't be #1 center.
-Pleks and Gio shouldn't play together. They're forced to because of our current #1 line.
-Neither Pleks or Gio should be paired with DD. Because of their size.

Look at all of the constraints. That's why DD hinders us. It's not that he's a bad player.
You are exactly right. Good summary of another portion of my concerns. I don't know if size is necessarily what kept Pleks and Gio from playing well together, but something about it just kept them from turning into a consistently effective combination.

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01-21-2013, 01:43 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
This is the problem. If he's not going to be good on the wing, how can he possibly be expected to be good in front of the net?

The problem with giving him both Patches and Cole is that we lose size on our other lines because of it. There's no balance in the squad. If we had several tough wingers over 6'0" this isn't a concern, but we don't.

He may also not be a liability in his own end but he's not at the level of Pleks and Eller. So by playing him on our #1 line, our two best scorers are stuck in our zone more often than if they were centered by one of them.

We need to spread the wealth so to speak. We can't put DD and Gionta on the same line, yet we have to split up Patches and Cole. We're doomed otherwise. That's the biggest problem I have. The way I see it:

-Patches and Cole shouldn't play together. We have to spread the wealth but we can't because DD needs two big wingers.
-DD shouldn't be #1 center.
-Pleks and Gio shouldn't play together. They're forced to because of our current #1 line.
-Neither Pleks or Gio should be paired with DD. Because of their size.

Look at all of the constraints. That's why DD hinders us. It's not that he's a bad player.
Annnd this screams move DD to the wing and put him with Chuck or Eller.

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01-21-2013, 01:44 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
This is the problem. If he's not going to be good on the wing, how can he possibly be expected to be good in front of the net?

The problem with giving him both Patches and Cole is that we lose size on our other lines because of it. There's no balance in the squad. If we had several tough wingers over 6'0" this isn't a concern, but we don't.

He may also not be a liability in his own end but he's not at the level of Pleks and Eller. So by playing him on our #1 line, our two best scorers are stuck in our zone more often than if they were centered by one of them.

We need to spread the wealth so to speak. We can't put DD and Gionta on the same line, yet we have to split up Patches and Cole. We're doomed otherwise. That's the biggest problem I have. The way I see it:

-Patches and Cole shouldn't play together. We have to spread the wealth but we can't because DD needs two big wingers.
-DD shouldn't be #1 center.
-Pleks and Gio shouldn't play together. They're forced to because of our current #1 line.
-Neither Pleks or Gio should be paired with DD. Because of their size.

Look at all of the constraints. That's why DD hinders us. It's not that he's a bad player.
Wouldn't it be better to get rid of the 34-year old, 45-point, almost UFA, Brian Gionta who makes $5M instead of the young, RFA, still learning, very creative center who will probably cost us $3M at most?

IMO, Gionta is basically a mid level 2nd line RW, but would be better suited on the 3rd line on a winning club.

What this team needs is wingers. We have two top-6 caliber wingers. And only one of them are young.

If we could move Pleks, DD, or Eller for a really good Top-6 winger that's young, pull the trigger. Otherwise, don't let DD go because he'll make more than $1M or waive him like suggest earlier in this thread.

We can win with DD in the Top-6. We can't win (consistently) with 2 horrible top-6 wingers.

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01-21-2013, 01:49 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
Wouldn't it be better to get rid of the 34-year old, 45-point, Brian Gionta who makes $5M instead of the young, still learning, very creative center who will probably cost us $3M at most?

IMO, Gionta is basically a mid level 2nd line RW, but would be better suited on the 3rd line on a winning club.

What this team needs is wingers. We have two top-6 caliber wingers. And only one of them are young.

If we could move Pleks, DD, or Eller for a really good Top-6 winger that's young, pull the trigger. Otherwise, don't let DD go because he'll make more than $1M or waive him like suggest earlier in this thread.

We can win with DD in the Top-6. We can't win (consistently) with 2 horrible top-6 wingers.
How can we get rid of a 5M 40 points midget who is almost a non-factor every damn game.
So you agree to try DD on the wing ?

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01-21-2013, 01:51 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
Annnd this screams move DD to the wing and put him with Chuck or Eller.
Ya actually it does. This is how:

Bourque - Plekanec - Cole
Pacioretty - Galchenyuk - Desharnais
Moen - Eller - Gionta
Prust - White - Armstrong

If you like, you can explain why this lineup doesn't deal with the size problem. Each line has balanced size and scoring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
Wouldn't it be better to get rid of the 34-year old, 45-point, Brian Gionta who makes $5M instead of the young, still learning, very creative center who will probably cost us $3M at most?

IMO, Gionta is basically a mid level 2nd line RW, but would be better suited on the 3rd line on a winning club.

What this team needs is wingers. We have two top-6 caliber wingers. And only one of them are young.

If we could move Pleks, DD, or Eller for a really good Top-6 winger that's young, pull the trigger. Otherwise, don't let DD go because he'll make more than $1M or waive him like suggest earlier in this thread.

We can win with DD in the Top-6. We can't win (consistently) with 2 horrible top-6 wingers.
Ideally, but you have to wait until next year to get rid of Gio. We have nobody to replace him right now. Again, the problem with DD isn't his skill. He's a top 6 forward. But playing him at center affects the rest of the lineup.

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01-21-2013, 01:52 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
Wouldn't it be better to get rid of the 34-year old, 45-point, almost UFA, Brian Gionta who makes $5M instead of the young, RFA, still learning, very creative center who will probably cost us $3M at most?

IMO, Gionta is basically a mid level 2nd line RW, but would be better suited on the 3rd line on a winning club.

What this team needs is wingers. We have two top-6 caliber wingers. And only one of them are young.

If we could move Pleks, DD, or Eller for a really good Top-6 winger that's young, pull the trigger. Otherwise, don't let DD go because he'll make more than $1M or waive him like suggest earlier in this thread.

We can win with DD in the Top-6. We can't win (consistently) with 2 horrible top-6 wingers.
Agree with this, if DD plays like he did last, he shouldn't be moved just because we don't have any other good players for other lines.

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01-21-2013, 01:53 PM
  #263
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How many people thought we looked good on paper without Markov? Especially after moving Cammalleri and Gionta getting hurt for the season? Also, I don't think anyone expected Gomez to be as terrible as was either.
Gomez was another part of the too soft vs talent down the middle problem, btw.

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Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
Weird how DD has impressive stats against Boston and Philadelphia, despite them being generally considered the most physical Eastern Conference teams.
Weird how many of his big games against those teams we lost, too. Was that 3 point game from MaxPac early in the season the only one that ended in a win?

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01-21-2013, 01:55 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
How can we get rid of a 5M 40 points midget who is almost a non-factor every damn game.
So you agree to try DD on the wing ?
Gionta?

In his first year he scored 29 goals in 61 games, and then added 9 more goals in 19 non factor playoff games, that is 37 goals in 80 games.

In his 2nd year he scored 28 goals in 82 games, and add 3 goals in 7 playoff games.

8 goals last year in 31 games.

Yup, none factor worthless player.


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01-21-2013, 01:56 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
Wouldn't it be better to get rid of the 34-year old, 45-point, almost UFA, Brian Gionta who makes $5M instead of the young, RFA, still learning, very creative center who will probably cost us $3M at most?
As far as that goes? Yes, it would... to an extent. There is still a premium that I'd pay to have Gionta instead of Desharnais on my roster (even money I pick Gionta every time), but I'm not sure it meets, let alone exceeds, $2 million.

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01-21-2013, 01:58 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by habs03 View Post
Gionta?

In his first year he scored 29 goals in in 61 games, and then added 9 more goals in 19 non factor playoff games, thanks 37 goals in 80 games.

In his 2nd year he scored 28 goals in 82 games, and add 3 goals in 7 playoff games.

8 goals last year in 31 goals.

Yup, none factor player.
He his actually. How many of those game as he played poorly and then gets a garbage goal on the side of the net ? Stats dont tell the whole story, actually watching the game does.

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01-21-2013, 02:01 PM
  #267
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Ya actually it does. This is how:

Bourque - Plekanec - Cole
Pacioretty - Galchenyuk - Desharnais
Moen - Eller - Gionta
Prust - White - Armstrong

If you like, you can explain why this lineup doesn't deal with the size problem. Each line has balanced size and scoring.
Well I can tell you right now, it's probably not best to put a playmaking forward onto his off-wing. With two north-south guys beside him, having to fire cross-ice passes on his backhand, or make an extra move to the inside first to get on his forehand before doing it, would prove more of a hindrance than a help to that line. Requires DD doing extra work to be effective, when the goal is, rather, to put him in a spot where he can make better use of his talents with less effort (and contributes the most possible to the line as a whole).

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01-21-2013, 02:02 PM
  #268
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He his actually. How many of those game as he played poorly and then gets a garbage goal on the side of the net ? Stats dont tell the whole story, actually watching the game does.
How many points did Desharnais get when the puck deflected of his face or skate? You're right, watching games does matter.

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01-21-2013, 02:05 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
Ya actually it does. This is how:

Bourque - Plekanec - Cole
Pacioretty - Galchenyuk - Desharnais
Moen - Eller - Gionta
Prust - White - Armstrong

Ideally, but you have to wait until next year to get rid of Gio. We have nobody to replace him right now. Again, the problem with DD isn't his skill. He's a top 6 forward. But playing him at center affects the rest of the lineup.
I'm not sure it really effects the rest of the line-up though. I don't think anyone can be sure because we don't know what he can do with say Bourque. I really think the 1st line should be split up so we can maybe win some games and so people can see that Desharnais can produce with other players - or maybe I'll get a rude awakening and realize he's not as good as I thought (although I don't believe that).

I like you're line-up, although, I'd really love to get Armstrong out of the line-up and add an offensive winger to the 3rd line. Unfortunately, we really don't have another offensive minded type player besides Gallagher. And it's hard to fit both him and Gally into the Top-9.

I think I'd shuffle all the wingers though. Pacioretty and Bourque, and then Bourque and Desharnais.

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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
How can we get rid of a 5M 40 points midget who is almost a non-factor every damn game.
So you agree to try DD on the wing ?
We still have one buyout left. Although that would be really harsh, obviously.

I'm betting Kaberle is more moveable though, assuming he puts up 35-points, than Gionta would be at 45-points.

As for trying Desharnais at wing? I'm fine with trying anyone at wing.. Galchenyuk, Plekanec, Desharnais, Eller.. so long as we can figure out our winger problem. I, personally, think we can win with Desharnais as a Top-6 center if we had the winger depth. We don't, so we need to try something. Gionta as a 3rd liner would actually look really good.

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01-21-2013, 02:06 PM
  #270
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Well **** with DD and Eller and PK if he was here. Stanley Cup would be ours according to many here.

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01-21-2013, 02:08 PM
  #271
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Well **** with DD and Eller and PK if he was here. Stanley Cup would be ours according to many here.
How do you figure? Most people seem to want Desharnais out of town.

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01-21-2013, 02:11 PM
  #272
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He his actually. How many of those game as he played poorly and then gets a garbage goal on the side of the net ? Stats dont tell the whole story, actually watching the game does.

In 10-11

6 of his goals where scored when tied, 5 were scored when team was trailing by 1 goal, 10 goals when team was only leading by 1, and 6 game winning goals.

21 of his goals were key situations.

in 09-10

6 goals when trailing by 1, 10 goals when the game is tied, 4 goals when leading by 1.

20 key goals in key

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id...010&gameType=2

Yup non factor goals


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01-21-2013, 02:24 PM
  #273
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Agree with this, if DD plays like he did last, he shouldn't be moved just because we don't have any other good players for other lines.
How does that make any sense? We shouldn't move DD because we don't have any other good players for other lines? Is this a one-line sport?

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01-21-2013, 02:26 PM
  #274
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Well **** with DD and Eller and PK if he was here. Stanley Cup would be ours according to many here.
hey, look, a strawman.

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01-21-2013, 02:26 PM
  #275
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How does that make any sense? We shouldn't move DD because we don't have any other good players for other lines? Is this a one-line sport?
I think he means we should focus on fixing the Top-6 rather then getting rid of one of the productive pieces.

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