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P.K Subban Thread 4.0 - Still Unsigned Edition

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Old
01-21-2013, 03:22 PM
  #626
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Originally Posted by pepperMonkey View Post
What rumor? I'm not really into breaking structure for just one guy and go long term (as opposed to a bridge contract) but 6yr 24m? My lord, Bergevin better not say no to that, that's just insane.
Doesn't make much sense.

PK COULD make 5-6 million a year easily AFTER a one or two year bridge contract.

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01-21-2013, 03:22 PM
  #627
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Originally Posted by Maliki2 View Post
If thats his attitude then BYE BYE dont let the door hit you in the ass!
and who's gonna replace pk again??havent seen one person on here list a d man who could come close to doin what pk does.anyone?

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01-21-2013, 03:24 PM
  #628
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Originally Posted by pepperMonkey View Post
What rumor? I'm not really into breaking structure for just one guy and go long term (as opposed to a bridge contract) but 6yr 24m? My lord, Bergevin better not say no to that, that's just insane.
Well, what do you think PK is asking for if not 6M? 7M?? 8M???
Even if he were asking for that, you always aim high, but GMs negotiate down. So, I'm sure Bergevin could negotiate a deal that sees him get 8M dropped to about 6M. I mean, this isn't worth losing a year over.

The more I think about it, the more it makes sense that Bergevin is just really low balling PK.

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01-21-2013, 03:24 PM
  #629
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Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
Doesn't make much sense.

PK COULD make 5-6 million a year easily AFTER a one or two year bridge contract.
if he puts up back to back 50 pt seasons on a 2 yr its gonna be alot more than that.

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01-21-2013, 03:24 PM
  #630
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
We only know that no offer sheets have been signed by PK.

He could have received 29 offer sheets for all we know.
I honestly doubt he's received any offer sheets of any kind.

What's the point of making an offer sheet for say 3 years 13.5M ? Habs will most assuredly match that. So what did you accomplish there ? Just drove a player's value up and made an adversary out of another team/GM, and kind of painted a target on your back for nothing.

If you make an offer sheet, you have to make one that will at least put the other GM in a tough spot and has at least a chance to succeed. And it has to make sense for you (considering the picks lost and the salary you will pay the guy) and not make sense for the other team.

For this reason, I don't think Subban is a good candidate for an offer sheet. Unless another team thinks he's worth like 5M+/per and they think the habs wouldn't match. Which would be completely retarded to let Subban go. I think at this point, Bergevin would see that as an out to this mess. He'd sign him and not lose face.

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01-21-2013, 03:26 PM
  #631
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Originally Posted by haburger View Post
and who's gonna replace pk again??havent seen one person on here list a d man who could come close to doin what pk does.anyone?
There are a few that do what he does (statistically speaking).

Weber.

Pietrangelo.

Doughty.

...

I'm sure I am forgetting some others.

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01-21-2013, 03:27 PM
  #632
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
I honestly doubt he's received any offer sheets of any kind.

What's the point of making an offer sheet for say 3 years 13.5M ? Habs will most assuredly match that. So what did you accomplish there ? Just drove a player's value up and made an adversary out of another team/GM, and kind of painted a target on your back for nothing.

If you make an offer sheet, you have to make one that will at least put the other GM in a tough spot and has at least a chance to succeed. And it has to make sense for you (considering the picks lost and the salary you will pay the guy) and not make sense for the other team.

For this reason, I don't think Subban is a good candidate for an offer sheet. Unless another team thinks he's worth like 5M+/per and they think the habs wouldn't match. Which would be completely retarded to let Subban go. I think at this point, Bergevin would see that as an out to this mess. He'd sign him and not lose face.
I agree, he's a bad candidate for an offer sheet.

I was just pointing out that we have no idea if he received one or not. He could have.

We would only know if he'd accept an offer sheet.

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01-21-2013, 03:29 PM
  #633
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
There are a few that do what he does (statistically speaking).

Weber.

Pietrangelo.

Doughty.

...

I'm sure I am forgetting some others.
and how are we goin to acquire one of these guys? on the ufa market?

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01-21-2013, 03:30 PM
  #634
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and how are we goin to acquire one of these guys? on the ufa market?
Oh, I can't help you with that part. I don't advocate getting rid of our young elite d-men with no replacements. That would be insane, short sighted and frankly ridiculous.

I get where you are going with this, and it has been pointed out before. But sadly, some people don't think before they insist we get rid of Subban.

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01-21-2013, 03:33 PM
  #635
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Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
Exactly.

Subban and his agent have not much good cards in hand.

For the good of PK, he must sign as soon as possible, even a one year deal and go to arbitration next Summer.
As Kriss E said, this would be bad.

An arbitrator doesn't make gut feeling calls. He looks at the stats. The number of minutes played on PK/PP/ES. The number of points. He looks objectively at a player's contribution. He will look at all comparables. He will listen to any argument that is quantifiable and objective. Subjective crap doesn't enter in the equation much. And at this point, the only people who think Subban isn't worth much have only brought up subjective arguments about character, being willing to take one for the team, being willing to accept a bridge contract just because.., etc. I have seen zero quantifiable evidence to suggest Subban isn't worth at least 4.5M-5M.

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01-21-2013, 03:36 PM
  #636
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
There are a few that do what he does (statistically speaking).

Weber.

Pietrangelo.

Doughty.

...

I'm sure I am forgetting some others.
stats wise maybe, but he doesnt have the impact in a game these guys have.

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01-21-2013, 03:39 PM
  #637
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but the impact he has on the canadiens is massive.

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01-21-2013, 03:41 PM
  #638
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
As Kriss E said, this would be bad.

An arbitrator doesn't make gut feeling calls. He looks at the stats. The number of minutes played on PK/PP/ES. The number of points. He looks objectively at a player's contribution. He will look at all comparables. He will listen to any argument that is quantifiable and objective. Subjective crap doesn't enter in the equation much. And at this point, the only people who think Subban isn't worth much have only brought up subjective arguments about character, being willing to take one for the team, being willing to accept a bridge contract just because.., etc. I have seen zero quantifiable evidence to suggest Subban isn't worth at least 4.5M-5M.
The reason for that is that there isn't any.

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01-21-2013, 03:42 PM
  #639
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but the impact he has on the canadiens is massive.
huh, describe impact... seriously.

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01-21-2013, 03:45 PM
  #640
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
huh, describe impact... seriously.
I was going to ask you the same thing. Because he plays PK, PP and a ton of ES time, and he does all of them amazingly well. Not sure what other impact your are expecting him to bring to the table.

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01-21-2013, 03:47 PM
  #641
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
I was going to ask you the same thing. Because he plays PK, PP and a ton of ES time, and he does all of them amazingly well. Not sure what other impact your are expecting him to bring to the table.
One thing that comes to mind is he hasn't proven that he can quarterback a powerplay. Sure he played lots of minutes on the PP but he wasn't particularly good at it.

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01-21-2013, 03:49 PM
  #642
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One thing that comes to mind is he hasn't proven that he can quarterback a powerplay. Sure he played lots of minutes on the PP but he wasn't particularly good at it.
I think he has 44 points over two years on PP duty. Not bad

He seems to be in good company:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...hl=en_US#gid=0

I agree he could be a bit better, but to me he's definitely particularly good at it. He had the same Points/60 Min PP as Erik Karlsson, the Norris winner who exemplifies a great offensive d-man.

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01-21-2013, 03:49 PM
  #643
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One thing that comes to mind is he hasn't proven that he can quarterback a powerplay. Sure he played lots of minutes on the PP but he wasn't particularly good at it.
Nobody is suggesting that he's reached his potential. I would extend him the benefit of the doubt that he'll improve his play on PP.

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01-21-2013, 03:51 PM
  #644
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
I was going to ask you the same thing. Because he plays PK, PP and a ton of ES time, and he does all of them amazingly well. Not sure what other impact he can bring to the table.
think people need to understand the difference between impact and talent.

examples of impact : Claude Lemieux in the P.O. 20 goals in seasons, plays like a 50 goal scorer in PO / Saku, bringing teams no better than the one we saw saturday into the P.O. regularly / Markov, took us a very long time to learn how to win without him in the line up...

skills or not, when these players are on your team, it has an impact on the result (Not just an odd game here and there).

Subban, while very talented, highly skilled, and doing lots of things right doesnt have much impact in the game -> YET.

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01-21-2013, 03:51 PM
  #645
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
I think he has 44 points over two years on PP duty. Not bad

He seems to be in good company:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...hl=en_US#gid=0

I agree he could be a bit better, but to me he's definitely particularly good at it.
If he were that good at it the PP wouldn't have been dead last. He doesn't see the ice well in terms of distributing the puck and his crazy wind up pretty much sends a telegraph to the goalie announcing his shot. Definitely something he can improve on a lot.

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01-21-2013, 03:53 PM
  #646
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
think people need to understand the difference between impact and talent.

examples of impact : Claude Lemieux in the P.O. 20 goals in seasons, plays like a 50 goal scorer in PO / Saku, bringing teams no better than the one we saw saturday into the P.O. regularly / Markov, took us a very long time to learn how to win without him in the line up...

skills or not, when these players are on your team, it has an impact on the result (Not just an odd game here and there).

Subban, while very talented, highly skilled, and doing lots of things right doesnt have much impact in the game -> YET.
Do you remember Subban in the playoffs vs the Bruins(as a freakin' rookie!)

Was that not impact?

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01-21-2013, 03:54 PM
  #647
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Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
If he were that good at it the PP wouldn't have been dead last. He doesn't see the ice well in terms of distributing the puck and his crazy wind up pretty much sends a telegraph to the goalie announcing his shot. Definitely something he can improve on a lot.
So he produced as much as other d-men that are QB's, but he is not good at it?

I don't think we can fault our terrible PP on Subban, that's short sighted.

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01-21-2013, 03:56 PM
  #648
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
Do you remember Subban in the playoffs vs the Bruins(as a freakin' rookie!)

Was that not impact?
So, what you're saying is that when a player plays well it has some kind impact on the rest of the team, thanks for stating the obvious.

It does NOT make him an impact player though, with or without him, results are the same.

here's a quick Q for ya : we're arguably a 15th place team this year. Do you think that with him in the line-up we are huh... lets say, a 12th place team ?

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01-21-2013, 03:57 PM
  #649
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If he were that good at it the PP wouldn't have been dead last. He doesn't see the ice well in terms of distributing the puck and his crazy wind up pretty much sends a telegraph to the goalie announcing his shot. Definitely something he can improve on a lot.
That is insane. You can't blame a PP on one defenseman. You realize that the goals are mostly supposed to come from the forwards, right? If they don't score, what the **** can a defenseman really do? Holy ****.

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01-21-2013, 03:59 PM
  #650
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
That is insane. You can't blame a PP on one defenseman. You realize that the goals are mostly supposed to come from the forwards, right? If they don't score, what the **** can a defenseman really do? Holy ****.
agreed, there are very exceptions to that (and that's what they are, exceptions), example : for us, Markov who can carry a PP by himself as long as you give him shooter(s), or like Lidstrom was in Detroit.

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