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Habs built to win for the future?

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Old
01-21-2013, 05:16 PM
  #51
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Given the present roster the Habs couldn't reach the finals this year or next no matter how many deals Bergevin is able to complete. They will have to take their lumps for the time being. If they exceed expectations n the next year or two it wouldn't be by much. It would be quixotic to try to bring in a player of Rick Nash's caliber because their base is so weak that it wouldn't greatly improve their standing even if they could.

I disagree with the notion of violently disrupting the team because it would more likely result in a shambles than in a contender. Instead, I favor an incremental buildup in which the return for departing players would be either young players of predictable future value or capable veterans who aren't going to be released in a year or two.

Bergevin should not confine his acquisitions to draft picks. Sometimes it's defensible to give up prospects even when you're not among the elite. Sam Pollock did this more than once. If he hadn't consummated a three-for-one trade with Detroit to get Frank Mahovlich the Habs couldn't have won Cups in 1971 and 1973 because, despite Ken Dryden, the Bruins were too much better. (Mahovlich set a playoff points record in 1971). True, the big M jumped ship after the 1973 Cup win while Detroit retained the talented young players they acquired (notably Mickey Redmond, a future 50 goal scorer) but no Hab fan could reasonably complain. Interestingly, Detroit accomplished very little in the 1970s with their surgical tank while the Habs profited immensely by doing the exact opposite. By the way, Pollock didn't trade Henri Richard, Jean Béliveau, Emile Bouchard, or John Ferguson in the 1970s but allowed them to retire gracefully.
I'll address this in the rebuilding thread. Your history needs work.

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01-21-2013, 05:23 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Yup let's analyse the team for a week and make panic moves next weekend. Maybe we can salavage a 2nd and 3rd rounder for Pacioretty and Gorges since they suck.

Yeah right, we've only had a week to think about this... It was impossible to do any analysis at all before the season began. Who knows, maybe Gionta is the next Gretzky. He might be right? Because all the history we've seen can't be analyzed so...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
I would add Pacioretty to that solid base.

Given that the Habs have promising prospects, three second round picks in the 2013 draft, and a likely very high pick in the first round, they'll be more than a bubble team in 2-3 years even if they don't trade away their better veterans for additional picks.
Paicoretty's an interesting case. I love that he gets tons of shots and has shown the willingness to get a little dirty and score some goals. Not sure how much we should count on him for though. I don't see him as an elite talent and he's a little one dimensional. I'm glad he's with us and I love watching him but I don't see him on a par with Price, Subban or (hopefully) Galchenyuk.

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01-21-2013, 05:50 PM
  #53
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The only reason you should be shaking your head is because you're welching on your bet with me.
When was that?

I told you to e-mail it to me along with the instructions. Do it and shut your damn pie hole.

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01-21-2013, 09:00 PM
  #54
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And suddenly the thread came to a screeching halt...

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01-21-2013, 09:50 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Yeah right, we've only had a week to think about this... It was impossible to do any analysis at all before the season began. Who knows, maybe Gionta is the next Gretzky. He might be right? Because all the history we've seen can't be analyzed so...

Paicoretty's an interesting case. I love that he gets tons of shots and has shown the willingness to get a little dirty and score some goals. Not sure how much we should count on him for though. I don't see him as an elite talent and he's a little one dimensional. I'm glad he's with us and I love watching him but I don't see him on a par with Price, Subban or (hopefully) Galchenyuk.
Pacioretty is not an elite talent, but great teams around the league often have players like Pacioretty.

e.g.

Pittsburgh has James Neal
LA has Dustin Brown
Philadelphia has Wayne Simmonds
Detroit has Johan Franzen
Boston Bruins have Milan Lucic
New York has Rick Nash
Vancouver now has Zach Kassian

i.e. a winger with enough size to go into dirty areas and to chip in a large number of goals and to take pressure off the rest of the line.

Pacioretty does not stand out from the names listed above, he isn't better, but he's comparable to what those elite teams have in a key position, and thus he is a good ingredient imo.

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01-21-2013, 09:57 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Pacioretty is not an elite talent, but great teams around the league often have players like Pacioretty.

e.g.

Pittsburgh has James Neal
LA has Dustin Brown
Philadelphia has Wayne Simmonds
Detroit has Johan Franzen
Boston Bruins have Milan Lucic
New York has Rick Nash
Vancouver now has Zach Kassian

i.e. a winger with enough size to go into dirty areas and to chip in a large number of goals and to take pressure off the rest of the line.

Pacioretty does not stand out from the names listed above, he isn't better, but he's comparable to what those elite teams have in a key position, and thus he is a good ingredient imo.
That's how I see him. A good player who can score some goals and play on the first line or help carry the 2nd. He's not a cornerstone player but he's good.

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01-21-2013, 10:13 PM
  #57
Et le But
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Pacioretty is not an elite talent, but great teams around the league often have players like Pacioretty.

e.g.

Pittsburgh has James Neal
LA has Dustin Brown
Philadelphia has Wayne Simmonds
Detroit has Johan Franzen
Boston Bruins have Milan Lucic
New York has Rick Nash
Vancouver now has Zach Kassian

i.e. a winger with enough size to go into dirty areas and to chip in a large number of goals and to take pressure off the rest of the line.

Pacioretty does not stand out from the names listed above, he isn't better, but he's comparable to what those elite teams have in a key position, and thus he is a good ingredient imo.
I agree, I think Pacioretty has become somewhat overrated around here, he's the best goalscorer this team has and is an asset who can still get better, but he's not a franchise player; Of the three most widely regarded "young" players since before Galchenyuk was drafted, he's behind Price and Subban in significance.

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01-21-2013, 10:34 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
I agree, I think Pacioretty has become somewhat overrated around here, he's the best goalscorer this team has and is an asset who can still get better, but he's not a franchise player; Of the three most widely regarded "young" players since before Galchenyuk was drafted, he's behind Price and Subban in significance.
Agreed, but most teams only have 1 or 2 franchise players anyways. Pacioretty is good enough to be a 1st line winger and Gally should be good enough to be a 1st line center. Hopefully one of our other forward prospects will be able to complete that line.

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01-21-2013, 11:18 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by sharks9 View Post
Agreed, but most teams only have 1 or 2 franchise players anyways. Pacioretty is good enough to be a 1st line winger and Gally should be good enough to be a 1st line center. Hopefully one of our other forward prospects will be able to complete that line.
100% agreed. Pacioretty is a perfect example of a first liner. Between franchise player and 2nd liner. It might not be that cut and dry in reality, but he is nothing but a positive asset (especially with his contract value), and he will be an important piece going forward. Where PK, Price and Gally are slated to be the franchise players, a true cup winner needs the kind of depth that supports elite players with above average play. This puts a team over the top in terms of actually comign through with a cup win (see Chicago's cup team, [shudder]boston's, etc.)

In all honesty I think Montreal Have a good foundation to begin building a roster that can compete for the cup, especially since this season unfortunately doesn't look promising and we'll have some great picks coming up in a very deep draft for Timmins&co. to use. I know alot of people are pretty negative about our future with some of the contracts we have coming, but it seems like our pro scouting will finally stop hindering the success we have at the draft. I have complete faith in MB.

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01-22-2013, 04:03 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Given the present roster the Habs couldn't reach the finals this year or next no matter how many deals Bergevin is able to complete. They will have to take their lumps for the time being. If they exceed expectations n the next year or two it wouldn't be by much. It would be quixotic to try to bring in a player of Rick Nash's caliber because their base is so weak that it wouldn't greatly improve their standing even if they could.

I disagree with the notion of violently disrupting the team because it would more likely result in a shambles than in a contender. Instead, I favor an incremental buildup in which the return for departing players would be either young players of predictable future value or capable veterans who aren't going to be released in a year or two.

Bergevin should not confine his acquisitions to draft picks. Sometimes it's defensible to give up prospects even when you're not among the elite. Sam Pollock did this more than once. If he hadn't consummated a three-for-one trade with Detroit to get Frank Mahovlich the Habs couldn't have won Cups in 1971 and 1973 because, despite Ken Dryden, the Bruins were too much better. (Mahovlich set a playoff points record in 1971). True, the big M jumped ship after the 1973 Cup win while Detroit retained the talented young players they acquired (notably Mickey Redmond, a future 50 goal scorer) but no Hab fan could reasonably complain. Interestingly, Detroit accomplished very little in the 1970s with their surgical tank while the Habs profited immensely by doing the exact opposite. By the way, Pollock didn't trade Henri Richard, Jean Béliveau, Emile Bouchard, or John Ferguson in the 1970s but allowed them to retire gracefully.
what a loser...

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01-23-2013, 02:55 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Folks, this is not a rebuild thread... there are enough of those around already.

Just curious as to what people think about this team for now and the immediate future. Are we a playoff team this year? Do you see this team progressing with what we've got over the next couple of years? Negating the draft this year what do you think about our present and future?

Nevermind about what you think we should do to improve, this is strictly a thread about your thoughts on the team presently and what we currently have in the system.
If Galchenyuk develops well then we should have most of the building blocks for a contender. We have 2/3rds of a first line with MaxPac and Gally, a good top defensive pairing in Gorges - Subban, and an elite goalie.

We need one more "first" liner that can carry the offensive load on the 2nd line (60-70pts) and another top pairing defenceman to really solidify our D. Markov could be that guy but that's still way up in the air

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01-23-2013, 08:46 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
If Galchenyuk develops well then we should have most of the building blocks for a contender. We have 2/3rds of a first line with MaxPac and Gally, a good top defensive pairing in Gorges - Subban, and an elite goalie.

We need one more "first" liner that can carry the offensive load on the 2nd line (60-70pts) and another top pairing defenceman to really solidify our D. Markov could be that guy but that's still way up in the air
I think it's a mistake to count Markov as a building block. He's an older player with a history of injury problems. We can't count on him being part of the future.

This is not a reflection on him or his talents. He's been a great player for us but we've got to accept that he's a huge injury risk and planning the future with him in mind would be a grave mistake. Anything he provides for us should be considered a bonus. If he produces... great. But we shouldn't be expecting anything from him.

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01-23-2013, 10:06 AM
  #63
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Patches can compare to many of the best winger in the other teams.
You guy's forget how dominant he was last year, sure he got sheltered minutes, but he got a damn ability that not many have, Getting open and shooting, hard and fast.

The only teams he can't really rivalize are Anaheim, Chicago, Oilers, Minny(I think it really depends on Parise.), Devils, Vancouver and the Caps. So that's 7 players. And theres many players in this that are not really better in other areas. Thinking of Sedin who's softer than a damn cotton field.

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01-23-2013, 10:09 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by sharks9 View Post
Agreed, but most teams only have 1 or 2 franchise players anyways. Pacioretty is good enough to be a 1st line winger and Gally should be good enough to be a 1st line center. Hopefully one of our other forward prospects will be able to complete that line.
More so, we already have our franchise, elite, fukken god, player.

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01-23-2013, 10:20 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
If Galchenyuk develops well then we should have most of the building blocks for a contender. We have 2/3rds of a first line with MaxPac and Gally, a good top defensive pairing in Gorges - Subban, and an elite goalie.

We need one more "first" liner that can carry the offensive load on the 2nd line (60-70pts) and another top pairing defenceman to really solidify our D. Markov could be that guy but that's still way up in the air
Plekanec is still young enough to be that guy when Galchenyuk has a few years under his belt.

Desharnais may or may not be in the mix still.

Eller will fit in somewhere, even if it's third line winger.

I like Emelin if he continues to improve. Tinordi will hopefully fulfill his promise. Beaulieu - we'll see... Gallagher, Kristo, Collbourg, we'll see...

That's a strong young core.

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01-23-2013, 12:43 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I think it's a mistake to count Markov as a building block. He's an older player with a history of injury problems. We can't count on him being part of the future.

This is not a reflection on him or his talents. He's been a great player for us but we've got to accept that he's a huge injury risk and planning the future with him in mind would be a grave mistake. Anything he provides for us should be considered a bonus. If he produces... great. But we shouldn't be expecting anything from him.
The age doesn't concern me that much since defenceman like him tend to play well into their late 30s. But you're absolutely right in that, right now we can't count on Markov being a key piece of the puzzle. We should have a better idea where he stands by the end of this season.

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01-23-2013, 12:53 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by tinyzombies View Post
Plekanec is still young enough to be that guy when Galchenyuk has a few years under his belt.

Desharnais may or may not be in the mix still.

Eller will fit in somewhere, even if it's third line winger.

I like Emelin if he continues to improve. Tinordi will hopefully fulfill his promise. Beaulieu - we'll see... Gallagher, Kristo, Collbourg, we'll see...

That's a strong young core.
Plekanec should still be around and contributing but I'm not sure if he'll be a 60-70pt guy if Galchenyuk is getting the prime offensive opportunities.

You're right we have a really good group of prospects and it wouldn't shock me if one of them broke out and became a top line player but that's far from a sure thing

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01-23-2013, 02:29 PM
  #68
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For me it's very simple and it was plain to see in the last two games. Against teams that forecheck hard, we've got very little. Against teams that sit back and let us dictate, we can run them over. Our D is just too soft and not physical for them to play the crash and bang game in our own end to retrieve the puck. We need to address this.

So where does this place us in the East? This is very raw but:

Teams that should generally beat us based on their size or whose games don't suit us-
Pittsburgh, Rangers, Flyers, Devils, Sabres and Capitals.

Teams that we either play well against or it's a toss up-
Hurricanes, Senators (rivalry), Leafs (rivalry), Islanders, Bruins (rivalry), Lightning, Jets and Panthers.

There are three teams here that are better than us, but through rivalries alone give us a chance. Generally they should be ahead of us.

That puts us 10th.

In my opinion, we'll be fighting with the Hurricanes, Islanders, Lightning, Jets and Panthers.

The Hurricanes acquired Jordan Staal. They'll be better.
The Lightning have superstars in Stamkos and St. Louis.
Florida made the playoffs last year.
We're missing PK but have Price. Galchenyuk's in his first year.

By this comparison alone, I'd say we're in the 13th - 15th range based on our weakest link- our defense.

Jones will likely be gone so it looks like we'll be adding a top 6 forward to our group. Hopefully it's one with some size so we'll be built for the future.

In terms of our depth chart including young players:
LW - Pacioretty, Desharnais, Bozon, Hudon.
RW - Gallagher, Collberg, Leblanc, Kristo.
C - Galchenyuk, Eller, Vail.
D - Subban, Tinordi, Beaulieu, Ellis, Thrower, Dietz.
G - Price, ?

Those in bold are already, or should be shortly full-time, with the big club. In my opinion, our glaring need is still an elite center. With this in mind, we should be focusing our attention on MacKinnon, Monahan, Barkov or Lindholm. A 13-15th finish in the East should give us a top 5 pick. We can focus on G and LW in the 2nd round.


Last edited by Ginu: 01-23-2013 at 04:18 PM.
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