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Will Letang sign/be offered an 8 year contract?

View Poll Results: Will Letang sign/be offered an 8 year contract?
Yes 105 89.74%
No 12 10.26%
Voters: 117. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-21-2013, 04:51 PM
  #51
bambamcam4ever
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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
It's not about how easily replaceable he is or isn't. A cap team isn't in a position to overpay guys and still contend. And Letang is not a #1D. He is a very good all around top pairing guy, and is our #1 only because we don't have someone better. He's not a shutdown guy, and he's not really a top PPQB. He's a mix of both, yet excels at neither. I'm not sure how you can compare him to guys that are not comparables (Suter, Weber, Chara, etc). Karlsson is probably a closer comparison. Or maybe Pietrangelo, and I'm not sure how accurate that is.

I'm not sure how you can say that Letang is better than Karlsson. Karlsson just came off of a 78 pt season and a Norris win. Yes Letang would have been close in points had he not been hurt... but that's it... close. I think Karlsson's defensive game is weak (and certainly weaker than Letangs), but his offensive game is better than Letangs.

Would the Pens be in a rough place without Letang? Yes to an extent. But go look at Carolina's cup roster (probably the most recent win without a #1 (or even a top pairing D)). Or look at the Rangers or New Jerseys D? My point being it's not impossible to assemble a quality team and blueline and have success without a legit #1 D.
Who in your opinion is a #1 defenseman then?

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01-21-2013, 05:01 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by bambamcam4ever View Post
Who in your opinion is a #1 defenseman then?
Haha yeah I was gonna say. He then goes on to compare him to a Karlsson or Pietrangelo (one who just won the Norris and another who is one of the most picked to do so this year). By that there are only about 3 or 4 #1 dmen in the entire NHL so Letang could still be int he top 5-10 and worth that kind of money.

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01-21-2013, 05:09 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by bambamcam4ever View Post
Who in your opinion is a #1 defenseman then?
By their standard only a true HOFer would be a number 1 D man.

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01-21-2013, 05:24 PM
  #54
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A true #1 is a guy who is the first to hit the ice in every single game situation there is, can play Norris caliber defense, all the while putting up elite point totals from the back end.

Letang can be a true #1, but he isn't there yet. There's only a few of them in the league, IMO. What will hold Letang back is his performance on the powerplay as I don't think he'll ever be a truly elite PPQB, and if a better offensive defenseman comes along, Letang will more than likely get pushed aside. In all honesty, I can't wait for the day some other guy comes along and takes the spot at the top point, because then Letang can play the left point, where I think he will be way more lethal.

Letang will get his money, and will be paid like a top 15 defenseman regardless of what any of us think about him.

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01-21-2013, 05:25 PM
  #55
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Yeah, if Letang comes in at a number at or over 6 million dollars, I'd probably look to flip him before I gave him that kind of money. 5.75 would be my max.

And honestly, a lot of my thought process on these numbers hinders on him not being a good PPQB. If you're making 6+ million a year, I think you should be used in every facet of the game, and be damn near elite. You obviously have those albatross contracts that someone will bring up, but you'll have that I guess.
They do use him in every facet of the game. He's not elite at them all but then again he would be Ray Bourque if he was.

He plays very good defense, his transition game is unreal, he's very good on the pk and he's top 20 for sure on the powerplay. He plays a physical game for his size. His skating is unreal. Lets not forget he's only 25 as well. He's still getting better.

Albatross contracts?

http://www.capgeek.com/leaders/?type...ion=D&limit=25

Go look at the top 25 highest pad defensemen or so. I guess every contract is albatross? Letang is a top 10 defenseman for sure in the NHL and he's going to get paid. You have no clue what top 4 defense get paid in this league then alone number 1 or number 2's.

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01-21-2013, 05:39 PM
  #56
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JTG.. you know I usually agree with you and at least respect you are making valid points, but it's simple here. Letang is a #1 and does so much for the Pens. I won't argue point totals. You know that doesn't even come into my mind. He's a legit #1 and I somehow find myself wondering how this discussion is even coming to be. If you ranked him in a tier system, he'd probably be in the 2nd tier while guys like Chara/Weber take over #1.

I mean think about it. Didn't Jordan Staal just get 10 years 80M? Didn't Karlsson just get 6.5 per? Look what the market is doing. He's worth a huge chunk of change to keep. Paying a defender 5M to get Martin, Z, someone like that is not worth it when you can have Letang for 2M more.

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01-21-2013, 05:41 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Pick87your71Poison View Post
Haha yeah I was gonna say. He then goes on to compare him to a Karlsson or Pietrangelo (one who just won the Norris and another who is one of the most picked to do so this year). By that there are only about 3 or 4 #1 dmen in the entire NHL so Letang could still be int he top 5-10 and worth that kind of money.
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Originally Posted by mgd525 View Post
By their standard only a true HOFer would be a number 1 D man.
A Norris win isn't indicative of someone being a #1D. It's almost entirely based on points. Is everyone who wins the Rocket Richard (or whatever it was renamed to) considered a #1 winger/center? Or did they just have a really good year (Cheechoo 05/06)?

A #1D is someone who excels in most if not every aspect of the game. Chara, Lidstrom, Weber, Pronger, Neidermeyer?. The list gets pretty slim after that.

There's very very few D who I'd consider a true #1. And that's not a knock against Letang. There's many (by comparison) I'd call a top pairing D. Letang easily fits that description, and is probably among the top 10 in the league (or damn close). But he's still not one of those guys who I'm putting out in the final seconds of game 7 to protect the win. I wouldn't put Karlsson out there either if that makes you feel better.

And no, he's still not worth that type of money (6.5+).

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01-21-2013, 05:46 PM
  #58
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Boyle, Yandle, Karlsson, Goligoski, Campbell, Pietrangelo, Markov, Gonchar, Ehrhoff are all better PP pointmen. With others like Weber and Chara having dangerous point shots who can cover up defensively.

His point totals on the PP are far more a product of Neal/Sid/Geno. Put any of them on our PP and we're a more dangerous unit.

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01-21-2013, 05:46 PM
  #59
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They do use him in every facet of the game. He's not elite at them all but then again he would be Ray Bourque if he was.
Or he'd be a Shea Weber, Ryan Suter, Alex Pietrangelo, or Zdeno Chara

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01-21-2013, 05:49 PM
  #60
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A #1D is someone who excels in most if not all aspects of the game. Chara, Lidstrom, Weber, Pronger, Neidermeyer?. The list gets pretty slim after that.
You realize that the list you just gave their are all most likely top 50 NHL D men of all time right ? 3 of which you could make an argument for top 15 of all time(Lid,Pronger,Nied) Chara would be in the top 40 or so. Your talking about pure franchise and FHHOF d men, not number one's.

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01-21-2013, 05:55 PM
  #61
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JTG.. you know I usually agree with you and at least respect you are making valid points, but it's simple here. Letang is a #1 and does so much for the Pens. I won't argue point totals. You know that doesn't even come into my mind. He's a legit #1 and I somehow find myself wondering how this discussion is even coming to be. If you ranked him in a tier system, he'd probably be in the 2nd tier while guys like Chara/Weber take over #1.

I mean think about it. Didn't Jordan Staal just get 10 years 80M? Didn't Karlsson just get 6.5 per? Look what the market is doing. He's worth a huge chunk of change to keep. Paying a defender 5M to get Martin, Z, someone like that is not worth it when you can have Letang for 2M more.
Letang is OUR number 1 defenseman. He's not yet A number 1 defenseman. As I've said...there's about 4 guys in this league I'd consider #1's. People get so riled up when someone says that, but it's true. If you watch a #1, and then compare Letang to them, you'll more than likely come away saying, "Letang isn't one of those, but he can be."

What Letang's contract will come down to is the following: Is the extra year we can give that no one else can really important to him? Does he see himself here for a long time? Will he take less like the rest of the core did to keep the team together? Does he want to have the 1 bird in hand going into his final year, or does he want to take the risk, play it out, and see what the market holds?

6.25 is really the max I'd like to give him, and honestly, 5.75 is what I'd personally feel comfortable with. I think Ray will find a real creative way to make Kris happy and to keep his cap hit down, mainly giving him the most he possibly can in the front of the deal, along with the 8th year.

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01-21-2013, 06:00 PM
  #62
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I guess I'm a little surprised at the divisiveness of this discussion. I figured it would be pretty cut and dry. We all watch what the guy does on the ice every night, after all.

You absolutely offer 8 years and pray that you can get him for less than ~7 a year.

Make no mistake... there is nobody that is realistically accessible to the Penguins that can come close to replacing what he brings. Not even any of our much-ballyhooed defensive prospect future superstars. And yes... I know that might sound premature but I absolutely stand by it. Letang is a very special talent.

With very special hair.

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01-21-2013, 06:02 PM
  #63
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Or he'd be a Shea Weber, Ryan Suter, Alex Pietrangelo, or Zdeno Chara
So you just named 4 defenseman in the NHL that you clearly think are top 4. Where is Letang on your list ? You could argue Letang is a better defenseman than Pie, and I would argue he's up there with the others but not quite as good yet. You did just name the highest paid, next highest paid and 5th highest paid defense in the league. You should also note that Chara's cap hit was when the cap was kida low as well. Go look at the top 25 defenseman being paid, Letang at 6 to 6.5 is well with in reason.

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01-21-2013, 06:07 PM
  #64
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Letang is OUR number 1 defenseman. He's not yet A number 1 defenseman
You say that like he's the number 1 defenseman on the islanders,Cbus or Carolina. He's not a top 4 being forced into a number one role because the team has none else.

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01-21-2013, 06:07 PM
  #65
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If not 8, 6 minimum. I think 6, 7 or 8 are about equally likely.

And anyone who doesn't think Letang would be a #1 D on most teams is not paying much attention. He was on a Norris pace last year before getting hurt.
Just because he's not better than all #1 D in the league, doesn't mean he's not a legit #1 on most teams. He is.

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01-21-2013, 06:14 PM
  #66
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I'm just so confused by your argument, JTG. If you think he's a top 10 defender, why shouldn't he be paid accordingly? It makes no sense to me. You are arguing who the best defender is. Nobody will argue Weber is better. But he's a talent you do see on 75% of teams.

So we are downgrading what we need to pay Letang because he's the....7th best defender in the league? What gives? That argument makes zero sense. Or are you basing it on the fact everything should be a tier system like the football draft? Because it's not like that.

Age, potential, worth to team, etc. all play a part and that means Letang deserves upwards to 7.5. I just am not understanding your argument one bit. What he will be paid =/= where he stands in the top 10 list.

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01-21-2013, 06:18 PM
  #67
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I'm just so confused by your argument, JTG. If you think he's a top 10 defender, why shouldn't he be paid accordingly? It makes no sense to me. You are arguing who the best defender is. Nobody will argue Weber is better. But he's a talent you do see on 75% of teams.

So we are downgrading what we need to pay Letang because he's the....7th best defender in the league? What gives? That argument makes zero sense. Or are you basing it on the fact everything should be a tier system like the football draft? Because it's not like that.

Age, potential, worth to team, etc. all play a part and that means Letang deserves upwards to 7.5. I just am not understanding your argument one bit. What he will be paid =/= where he stands in the top 10 list.
Not to mention the money won't even be a problem because Martin will be traded or bought out in the off season or next when Malkin and Letang come up for contracts. Not to mention we are not paying Staal 6 million a year thank god.

If you have to pay Letang market value so be it. It's a hell of a lot better than trying to get a Z for 4 million or a Martin for 5 million. You never know where that will get you as we have seen.

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01-21-2013, 06:22 PM
  #68
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I think Letang resigns for around 6 years and 36 million. If Im Ray Shero, i go no higher then 6.5 per year

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01-21-2013, 06:50 PM
  #69
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I think Letang resigns for around 6 years and 36 million. If Im Ray Shero, i go no higher then 6.5 per year
If I'm Ray Shero, Letang can have 7 per for 8 is that's what it takes. Guys like Letang are not available. You sign them and find money somewhere else. But if he takes a sweet heart deal great.

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01-21-2013, 06:57 PM
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I'm just so confused by your argument, JTG. If you think he's a top 10 defender, why shouldn't he be paid accordingly? It makes no sense to me. You are arguing who the best defender is. Nobody will argue Weber is better. But he's a talent you do see on 75% of teams.

So we are downgrading what we need to pay Letang because he's the....7th best defender in the league? What gives? That argument makes zero sense. Or are you basing it on the fact everything should be a tier system like the football draft? Because it's not like that.

Age, potential, worth to team, etc. all play a part and that means Letang deserves upwards to 7.5. I just am not understanding your argument one bit. What he will be paid =/= where he stands in the top 10 list.
How I see it, is that those guys who make the 7+ million make that because of what they bring. They are great PPQB's, they are top notch PK'ers, and they can eat 20 mins of ES ice a game. They make that money because they don't need to bring in others to supplement the lineup.

If you're paying Letang 7 million, you're still paying a PPQB somewhere down the line, as we all know that's really not a Letang strong suit. He probably shouldn't be featured on the PP like a Gonchar is, for instance. So then you're paying 7 million for a top pairing guy who isn't the feature guy on a PP or a PK, and he's probably playing close to the same number of ES mins as the 2nd pair who makes 2-3 million less.

Giving Letang 5.75-6.25 still would put him in the top 15 in the league in salary for defensemen. He's being paid like a top pairing guy that he is, but he's not getting ridiculous money where he can't play up to his salary. I see that as market value for him. He still gets paid to what his skill level suggests, he will get 8 years here if he wants it, and he'll be a cornerstone on a perennial winner.

People take what I'm saying as a slight on Letang, and it's not. I just think you have to be shrewd and remove emotion from the decision, and look at the situation for what it is.



And "salary won't be an issue because we're buying out Martin," in conjecture at it's finest. If Martin plays well this season, I can't see us buying him out, and his salary won't be gone until a young guy proves they can take over his role, which may be in a year...or it may be in 3. We don't know.

And the best part is that I see some people saying "pay Letang 7 million!" and then out of the other side of their mouths say, "Geno should re-sign for 8.7!" Geno should theoretically re-sign for 10 million and some change, because that's what fair is for him.

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01-21-2013, 06:57 PM
  #71
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I'm just so confused by your argument, JTG. If you think he's a top 10 defender, why shouldn't he be paid accordingly? It makes no sense to me. You are arguing who the best defender is. Nobody will argue Weber is better. But he's a talent you do see on 75% of teams.

So we are downgrading what we need to pay Letang because he's the....7th best defender in the league? What gives? That argument makes zero sense. Or are you basing it on the fact everything should be a tier system like the football draft? Because it's not like that.

Age, potential, worth to team, etc. all play a part and that means Letang deserves upwards to 7.5. I just am not understanding your argument one bit. What he will be paid =/= where he stands in the top 10 list.
His point is that he doesn't fit the definition of a true #1. I could see a scenario down the line where Morrow is our PP guy and Despres, Bortuzzo, Harrington and/or Dumoulin are eating up the PK minutes. Letang at 7 mil in that scenario isn't really worth it IMO. Especially if the cap catches up to us when we're resigning our D corps and raises are due to some key forwards.

But again, you sign him for whatever it takes b/c we have no one to replace him now. And deal with any issues later on.

At least I think that's what he means.

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01-21-2013, 09:47 PM
  #72
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Offer? Yes. Sign, maybe. If we don't lock him in I'll be having repeated nightmares about Philly giving him an insanely ridiculous deal since Pronger isn't looking well for them and having him torment us for years lol.
Not to change the subject but what would be the deal for Pronger's contract if he doesn't return? I think he's got a ton of time left on that. I'm not the most savvy person when it comes to contract complications.

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01-21-2013, 09:50 PM
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He'll probably be getting bought out, and he will then retire.

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01-21-2013, 09:56 PM
  #74
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He'll probably be getting bought out, and he will then retire.
Can you buy out an injured player? Not too sure on all those conditions and rules since I'm not at all up-to-date on CBA particulars, but I thought that was the case.

RE: Letang - I'd give him 8 years but if he wants a crazy cap hit that's going to be a tough call. His loss would have such an impact. The Pens have a deep prospect pool at D, but no one like him.

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01-21-2013, 10:15 PM
  #75
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Ah yes. He can't be bought out. I don't exactly know what those new rules are though, because if he isn't bought out, and he retires before his deal is up, something happens with those remaining years.

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