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01-21-2013, 06:41 PM
  #201
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Originally Posted by deandebean View Post
Desharnais is a center. A hockey player with his vision is a center.
So St Louis and Tanguay are centers? Kovalev? Jagr? Patrick Kane? Eberle?

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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
Eller is boss, but I think we're seeing a ceiling to his offensive potential. I don't see him ever being a top offensive center, more of a goal scoring Hanzal type, which would be great.
Offensive ceiling to a 23 year old on a horrible team playing 3rd line? Eller might not be a high end offensive player but everyone said the same thing about Plekanec when he was 23, and Desharnais wasn't considered an NHLer at that age.

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01-21-2013, 06:42 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by LeMAD View Post
I like the Moen/Eller pairing actually. And Eller doesn't have enough offensive flair to play on the PP. Unless is given the role of screening the goalie.

Moen and Eller should be given more icetime 5 on 5, while smaller guys like Plekanec and Gionta should be mainly used on special teams.
Eller last year had one less powerplay goal than Cole had in 10-11 with the Canes despite Eller playing a total of like 8 minutes on the powerplay last season.

This is only Eller's 3rd nhl season for christ sakes. He double his goal output from the previous year and almost double his point totals despite never getting a chance to produce with capable wingers and powerplay time. To say he has hit his offensive ceiling is nonsensical when he has never been given a chance to demonstrate his offensive capabilities for an extended period of time.

The problem isn't Eller the problem is people want Eller to produce like Plekanec and Desharnais while getting less minutes, no powerplay time and non-offensive wingers. I wonder how many points DD or how good offensively he would look in the same context.

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01-21-2013, 06:44 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
So St Louis and Tanguay are centers? Kovalev? Jagr? Patrick Kane? Eberle?
Centers are the CREATORS of the play. A line runs around a center. Eller hasn't showed anything to anybody in pro hockey that he has 'it'. Until he does, he will be tossed around. You guys on this forum think he's a top 2 center, while ALLLLLLL of freaking pro hockey thinks differently of the guy. I tend to be on their side more than yours. Right now, Eller hasn't shown me squat as a center.

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01-21-2013, 06:45 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Eller last year had one less powerplay goal than Cole had in 10-11 with the Canes despite Eller playing a total of like 8 minutes on the powerplay last season.
Then he's not a center. He's a winger. You are proving my point.

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01-21-2013, 06:47 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by deandebean View Post
Centers are the CREATORS of the play. A line runs around a center. Eller hasn't showed anything to anybody in pro hockey that he has 'it'. Until he does, he will be tossed around. You guys on this forum think he's a top 2 center, while ALLLLLLL of freaking pro hockey thinks differently of the guy. I tend to be on their side more than yours. Right now, Eller hasn't shown me squat as a center.
A center needs to be good at both ends. Eller is good at both ends. Desharnais is only good in the offensive zone.

In terms of production, it's hard to tell given the different contexts. We know that Eller produces at a mediocre clip with crappy linemates and icetime, and Desharnais produces at an average clip with amazing linemates and icetime.

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01-21-2013, 06:48 PM
  #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Eller last year had one less powerplay goal than Cole had in 10-11 with the Canes despite Eller playing a total of like 8 minutes on the powerplay last season.

This is only Eller's 3rd nhl season for christ sakes. He double his goal output from the previous year and almost double his point totals despite never getting a chance to produce with capable wingers and powerplay time. To say he has hit his offensive ceiling is nonsensical when he has never been given a chance to demonstrate his offensive capabilities for an extended period of time.
That's an extremely weak argument.

Besides, Eller is a pretty good goal scorer, but he has a lot of trouble using his linemates. Even more than a pure goalscorer like Gionta.

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01-21-2013, 06:49 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by deandebean View Post
Then he's not a center. He's a winger. You are proving my point.
what the hell are you talking about, it doesn't prove anything. Eller doesn't produce everytime he is put on the wing. Eller has produced at centre with no PP time, 3rd line minutes, tough opposition an non-scoring wingers. There is more evidence that he is a better centre than winger.

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01-21-2013, 06:50 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by deandebean View Post
Centers are the CREATORS of the play. A line runs around a center. Eller hasn't showed anything to anybody in pro hockey that he has 'it'. Until he does, he will be tossed around. You guys on this forum think he's a top 2 center, while ALLLLLLL of freaking pro hockey thinks differently of the guy. I tend to be on their side more than yours. Right now, Eller hasn't shown me squat as a center.
Except that's not necessarily true at all. As good as Stamkos is, Martin St. Louis is still the primary creator on Tampa, as he was for Lecavalier who for all his talent did not have high end creativity even in his prime.

In 2008 Kovalev was far more the line's primary playmaker than Plekanec, even if Plekanec was as important 5 on 5.

And while these are the two most obvious examples off the top of my head, they aren't the only one.

And no, I'm sorry, Randy Cunneyworth not trusting Eller doesn't mean anything. Nobody is saying he's a budding superstar, but confirming anything about his ceiling at 23 is ridiculous. And he showed plenty of playmaking skills in a stacked Finnish league just a month ago, and yes it's not the same as the NHL, but it's a better league than Galchenyuk or DD produced at a PPG pace in.

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Besides, Eller is a pretty good goal scorer, but he has a lot of trouble using his linemates. Even more than a pure goalscorer like Gionta.
How exactly is Eller supposed to use Travis Moen offensively? And Eller did a fine job using Kostitsyn and even a not yet ready Leblanc on the third line in defensive starts with no PP time.

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01-21-2013, 06:51 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by LeMAD View Post
That's an extremely weak argument.

Besides, Eller is a pretty good goal scorer, but he has a lot of trouble using his linemates. Even more than a pure goalscorer like Gionta.
How can you go there an claim that Eller has no PP flair when he is never used there? It's just utter ridiculousness. He played 8 minutes of PP time last year, how can you make a judgement on that. If there is any judgement we can make is that he should get an extensive look considering he point production on the PP in relation to time spent on it.

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01-21-2013, 06:55 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by LeMAD View Post
That's an extremely weak argument.

Besides, Eller is a pretty good goal scorer, but he has a lot of trouble using his linemates. Even more than a pure goalscorer like Gionta.
Did you watch the games last year?

Eller had Bourque as his linemate.

Same story over and over again.

Beautiful pass from Eller to Bourque, Bourque fans.

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01-21-2013, 06:55 PM
  #211
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What I get from this thread is that Eller is both overrated and underrated because he was a highly touted prospect (and traded for Halak).

He's not a total failure like some people say he is, but we're starting to see the ceiling he could reach.

Should Therien bench him? No. Is he a key part of the team and therefore should be considered untouchable. No.

He's pretty much the most average player I can think of.


edit: and Eller has never made a "beautiful pass", to Bourque or anyone.

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01-21-2013, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by LeMAD View Post
What I get from this thread is that Eller is both overrated and underrated because he was a highly touted prospect (and traded for Halak).

He's not a total failure like some people say he is, but we're starting to see the ceiling he could reach.

Should Therien bench him? No. Is he a key part of the team and therefore should be considered untouchable. No.

He's pretty much the most average player I can think of.
OK, I'll write the statistical analysis of Eller and have it posted soon.

You Eller-haters are out to lunch.


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edit: and Eller has never made a "beautiful pass", to Bourque or anyone.
You didn't watch the games then.

Eller made many great passes to Bourque.

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01-21-2013, 07:00 PM
  #213
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Before Eller came to Montreal, he was seen as a 'raw' talent, with no particularly dominating skillset. He came from a traditionally 'non hockey' culture but showed promise because he had a solid base: good speed, good hand-eye coordination, etc. St.Louis didn't think of him as a surefire 1st or second line center. He came in Montreal very 'raw'. He became somewhat efficient defensively because he was groomed by JM. That's JM's specialty. He did the same with many centers with Ottawa. Eller did become good at that. But as soon as he took over center ice with the puck, the plays usually ended awkwardly. He was too slow to dish out the pass, he seemed to think too much out there before making a move, etc.

JM grew tired of him as a bonafide center. Comes along Cunnyworth. He too sees Eller as a 'meh' solution at center. Can't see him fit anywhere, let alone on an offensive unit. People see him as a goal scorer. A guy that's big, that has some hands, and can dangle. But when it's time to make a move and CREATE a play for a teammate, it takes a second too long. So Cunnyworth doesn't know what to do with him.

Comes along Therrien and his GM. They had EIGHT months to look over the team. EIGHT months. They looked at tapes galore. They analyzed the players. Talked to some ex-coaches and some pro scouts. They evaluated their personnel. Everybody was telling them that Eller is an enigma. That he seems physically able to be a solid offensive center, but then again, he just plain sucks at developing plays for others. Well, not that bad, but you get the message.

Now, Therrien is not throwing the towel. But he wants to shake Eller a bit. Also, I believe he wants to see Chuckie at center, WHERE HE BELONGS.

Some posters here have this thing about Desharnais being dropped in favor of either Chuckie or Eller. Got news for you: the reason why Cole and Pacioretty had fabulous offensive seasons last year WAS because of Desharnais. He stole the job out of Plekanec's hands because they LOVED playing with him. Why? Because Desharnais was doing was any offensive center is supposed to do: CREATE plays. And have his wingers complete the job. That's essentially what he does best. He did that in the Q. He did that in the ECL, he did that in the A league and he did that last season in the NHL.

Therrien today sent a clear message to the first line: you will HAVE to lead us to wins this season. That's a direct message to all of you who wish that Desharnais drops out of the picture. Got news for you: if he gets another solid season like last year, he's here to stay. And for a while.

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01-21-2013, 07:02 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
So St Louis and Tanguay are centers? Kovalev? Jagr? Patrick Kane? Eberle?



Offensive ceiling to a 23 year old on a horrible team playing 3rd line? Eller might not be a high end offensive player but everyone said the same thing about Plekanec when he was 23, and Desharnais wasn't considered an NHLer at that age.
Just going by what I see. If he can learn to relax with the puck and make his reads then sure, he can be a top offensive player, but that's a hard thing to develop. He's a little too excited with the puck and can force things or miss reads. And it's not like him being a 40-50 point shutdown center would be a bad thing...

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01-21-2013, 07:02 PM
  #215
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what the hell are you talking about, it doesn't prove anything. Eller doesn't produce everytime he is put on the wing. Eller has produced at centre with no PP time, 3rd line minutes, tough opposition an non-scoring wingers. There is more evidence that he is a better centre than winger.
He's a goal scorer. He doesn't create plays. He's not a center. Until he LEARNS how to be an effective offensive center, he won't be one. He doesn't have that skill in him. Heck, Chuckie has more skills at center right now that him. Just the way he was attacking the zone last game was evident. He's a center. A natural center. Just like Desharnais and just like Plekanec.

I'm shocked that some posters can't see the difference.

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01-21-2013, 07:04 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
OK, I'll write the statistical analysis of Eller and have it posted soon.

You Eller-haters are out to lunch.



You didn't watch the games then.

Eller made many great passes to Bourque.
So, let me get this straight: everybody in pro hockey is off, and you, sir, are right? Is that it? Ah, the magic of coaching on the Internets.

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01-21-2013, 07:04 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by deandebean View Post
Before Eller came to Montreal, he was seen as a 'raw' talent, with no particularly dominating skillset. He came from a traditionally 'non hockey' culture but showed promise because he had a solid base: good speed, good hand-eye coordination, etc. St.Louis didn't think of him as a surefire 1st or second line center. He came in Montreal very 'raw'. He became somewhat efficient defensively because he was groomed by JM. That's JM's specialty. He did the same with many centers with Ottawa. Eller did become good at that. But as soon as he took over center ice with the puck, the plays usually ended awkwardly. He was too slow to dish out the pass, he seemed to think too much out there before making a move, etc.

JM grew tired of him as a bonafide center. Comes along Cunnyworth. He too sees Eller as a 'meh' solution at center. Can't see him fit anywhere, let alone on an offensive unit. People see him as a goal scorer. A guy that's big, that has some hands, and can dangle. But when it's time to make a move and CREATE a play for a teammate, it takes a second too long. So Cunnyworth doesn't know what to do with him.

Comes along Therrien and his GM. They had EIGHT months to look over the team. EIGHT months. They looked at tapes galore. They analyzed the players. Talked to some ex-coaches and some pro scouts. They evaluated their personnel. Everybody was telling them that Eller is an enigma. That he seems physically able to be a solid offensive center, but then again, he just plain sucks at developing plays for others. Well, not that bad, but you get the message.

Now, Therrien is not throwing the towel. But he wants to shake Eller a bit. Also, I believe he wants to see Chuckie at center, WHERE HE BELONGS.

Some posters here have this thing about Desharnais being dropped in favor of either Chuckie or Eller. Got news for you: the reason why Cole and Pacioretty had fabulous offensive seasons last year WAS because of Desharnais. He stole the job out of Plekanec's hands because they LOVED playing with him. Why? Because Desharnais was doing was any offensive center is supposed to do: CREATE plays. And have his wingers complete the job. That's essentially what he does best. He did that in the Q. He did that in the ECL, he did that in the A league and he did that last season in the NHL.

Therrien today sent a clear message to the first line: you will HAVE to lead us to wins this season. That's a direct message to all of you who wish that Desharnais drops out of the picture. Got news for you: if he gets another solid season like last year, he's here to stay. And for a while.
Game, set and match. All a question of opportunities as well. Even if the idea is that Eller needs to play with talented wingers, well we have the players that we have. And to remove Pleks or DD from the first 2 lines, Eller needs to prove he could do the job. As far as the bottom 2 lines is concerned, we are still auditioning...Eller will go back at it in no time. Unless we keep winning which then brings the question...why was it a bad move to remove him if we keep winning? But since we won't be winning....he will go back at it.

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01-21-2013, 07:05 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
OK, I'll write the statistical analysis of Eller and have it posted soon.

You Eller-haters are out to lunch.



You didn't watch the games then.

Eller made many great passes to Bourque.
Evidently not enough since the coaching staff is letting him know that he's on a tight rope already.

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01-21-2013, 07:05 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
OK, I'll write the statistical analysis of Eller and have it posted soon.

You Eller-haters are out to lunch.
It's interesting how this board has such a stereotype of centers as the only guys allowed to make fancy passes while ignoring the importance of keeping possession, the one thing Eller is far better than anyone else on this team at. Keeping possession while skating through the neutral zone is the reason Gomez lasted as long as he did after all.

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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
Just going by what I see. If he can learn to relax with the puck and make his reads then sure, he can be a top offensive player, but that's a hard thing to develop. He's a little too excited with the puck and can force things or miss reads. And it's not like him being a 40-50 point shutdown center would be a bad thing...
A 40-50 point shutdown center is a 2/3 C depending on the makeup of the team. It's a perfectly realistic projection of Eller.

What is not realistic, is the accusations that he's effectively a plug, or that he's less skilled than Moen, which is one of the most ridiculous things I've heard here, and that says a lot.

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01-21-2013, 07:05 PM
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Game, set and match.
Merci.

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01-21-2013, 07:09 PM
  #221
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So, let me get this straight: everybody in pro hockey is off, and you, sir, are right? Is that it? Ah, the magic of coaching on the Internets.
Who the hell is everybody?

Jacques Martin liked Eller, and he was progressing well last year.

Cunneyworth is irrelevant.

Bergevin, Therrien may soon prove to be buffoons as well.

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01-21-2013, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
It's interesting how this board has such a stereotype of centers as the only guys allowed to make fancy passes while ignoring the importance of keeping possession, the one thing Eller is far better than anyone else on this team at. Keeping possession while skating through the neutral zone is the reason Gomez lasted as long as he did after all.
Actually, if pro hockey thought like you, Eller would be 1st line material. Evidently, they do not think the same way. Eller controls the puck because he comes from a hockey background that favors puck possession (big ice surface) and starting the play in a cycle. That may be good. But at the same time, the NHL is based on North-South hockey. And that's what the coaches can't seem to get into Eller's head. He can surely control the puck. That's a skill. But what does he do with it afterwards is the question mark.

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01-21-2013, 07:10 PM
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Who the hell is everybody?

Jacques Martin liked Eller, and he was progressing well last year.

Cunneyworth is irrelevant.

Bergevin, Therrien may soon prove to be buffoons as well.
...and the very competent Blues organisation. Jacques Martin GROOMED Eller. It was his pet project, like Magnus Ardvedsson or some other 3rd line dude Jacques had in Ottawa. He wanted to develop one skill for Eller. But he NEVER thought he was an offensive center. Not a chance. he knew what his limitations were.

Now, you can argue that Eller had good stats, and he did! And he should even be better this season. BUUUUUT, where does he fit? If you keep the kid, Eller doesn't stand a CHANCE in hell to stick at center. Unless Montreal trades Plekanec, which could happen if the season is lost early. Don't kid yourself: if Chuckie stays a center, he's got no chance in hell in Montreal. Eller , that is.

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01-21-2013, 07:13 PM
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It's interesting how this board has such a stereotype of centers as the only guys allowed to make fancy passes while ignoring the importance of keeping possession, the one thing Eller is far better than anyone else on this team at. Keeping possession while skating through the neutral zone is the reason Gomez lasted as long as he did after all.



A 40-50 point shutdown center is a 2/3 C depending on the makeup of the team. It's a perfectly realistic projection of Eller.

What is not realistic, is the accusations that he's effectively a plug, or that he's less skilled than Moen, which is one of the most ridiculous things I've heard here, and that says a lot.
When your only skill is to keep possession, you are not a top 6 player. I would agree that he belongs on a bottom 6, why he might miss a game or 2 is because of the auditions we're making.

As far as skills, people should make the difference between pure skills and the ability to make something out of it. The jury is still out on Eller as far as being able to translate his abilities and skills. One thing is sure, we will have to really test him to know what's his future with us. We didn't do it so far. I believe we will in the near future. We CANNOT let another guy go to see him flourish elsewhere. My heart wouldn't take it. But right now, people are panicking over nothing. Unless was already hated before he got the job hence the short leash....I know which one it is. And again, should I repeat for a 1000 times, that I'm far from being a Therrien fan.

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01-21-2013, 07:16 PM
  #225
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I like the Moen/Eller pairing actually. And Eller doesn't have enough offensive flair to play on the PP. Unless is given the role of screening the goalie.

Moen and Eller should be given more icetime 5 on 5, while smaller guys like Plekanec and Gionta should be mainly used on special teams.
Don't you think Eller should get the chance to play on the PP before you label him uneffective ?

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Desharnais is a center. A hockey player with his vision is a center.
I tought the same thing when I was a kid. But in reality this is not true at all. Explain Stamkos please. Or even Lecavalier. Or even Plekanec.

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Eller is boss, but I think we're seeing a ceiling to his offensive potential. I don't see him ever being a top offensive center, more of a goal scoring Hanzal type, which would be great.
This is the problem here, we can't see a player's ceiling when we dont give him the chance. So far he's 23, never played PP(sufficent), never played with good wingers(He was dangerous with AK.) and he got hard matchups.

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Eller should be a winger. He can score for sure. But his passing skills are subpar. That's what aaaaaaallllll the coaches 'including' the one in St.Louis have noticed. In essence, he's not a center. Or he's a 'replacement' center when you have your regular parts injured. He might be useful in that way.
Again please explain Stamkos. Or do you want more example of centers that are shoot first ?
His passing skill is not subpar anyway.
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Originally Posted by deandebean View Post
Centers are the CREATORS of the play. A line runs around a center. Eller hasn't showed anything to anybody in pro hockey that he has 'it'. Until he does, he will be tossed around. You guys on this forum think he's a top 2 center, while ALLLLLLL of freaking pro hockey thinks differently of the guy. I tend to be on their side more than yours. Right now, Eller hasn't shown me squat as a center.
..............................................Mayb e he didnt show you nothing (he actually showed alot.) because he never had a real chance ?

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Originally Posted by deandebean View Post
He's a goal scorer. He doesn't create plays. He's not a center. Until he LEARNS how to be an effective offensive center, he won't be one. He doesn't have that skill in him. Heck, Chuckie has more skills at center right now that him. Just the way he was attacking the zone last game was evident. He's a center. A natural center. Just like Desharnais and just like Plekanec.

I'm shocked that some posters can't see the difference.
Chuck has more skill than any of our centers... What is your point?

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