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01-21-2013, 08:02 PM
  #251
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Originally Posted by Avs_19 View Post
Jordan Staal. He had 91 points in 204 games (0.45 PPG) when he signed a 4 year, $16 million extension.

Milan Lucic was close. He had 70 points in 151 games (0.46 PPG) when he signed a 3 year, $12.25 million extension.
Staal had a 29 and a 22 goal season under the belt and he performed in the playoffs. He also didn't have anyone close to Landeskog as his linemate (at least not in his 3rd year).

Lucic and Boston is a different kind of lovestory. He also is a better goalscorer and he sets the tone physically for them and was pretty good in the POs

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01-21-2013, 08:02 PM
  #252
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I know Avs are really into bridge deals, but if I was in charge I would say "There is no way we're doing this again in 17 months time" and demand a 6+ year deal.

Of course I like O'Reilly so a long term deal has always been my preference. He's as low risk as you can get. At worst he'll be a 45 point guy with shutdown defense. At best, add 20 or so points.

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01-21-2013, 08:08 PM
  #253
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I know Avs are really into bridge deals, but if I was in charge I would say "There is no way we're doing this again in 17 months time" and demand a 6+ year deal.

Of course I like O'Reilly so a long term deal has always been my preference. He's as low risk as you can get. At worst he'll be a 45 point guy with shutdown defense. At best, add 20 or so points.
I also would love to wake up one of these days in the near future and read that Ryan O'Reilly has signed a 5+ year deal. I think 5 years is more than enough time to smooth out any hard feelings that may have developed in this negotiation.

But with each passing day I just keep getting the gnawing feeling that he'll either just be outright traded, or signed and then traded (signed knowing that he'll be traded)

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01-21-2013, 08:10 PM
  #254
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Staal had a 29 and a 22 goal season under the belt and he performed in the playoffs. He also didn't have anyone close to Landeskog as his linemate (at least not in his 3rd year).

Lucic and Boston is a different kind of lovestory. He also is a better goalscorer and he sets the tone physically for them and was pretty good in the POs
He didn't ask for specifics. He just asked if there was someone with the same PPG that got $4M+ and those two guys did.

Lucic had 34 goals after three seasons and O'Reilly has 39 goals. I think Lucic was also playing with Savard at the time. Lucic sets a tone physically, O'Reilly does it with his hard work and defense.

I don't know if it was his second year in the league or third but I know Staal was on Malkin's wing in one of those playoffs.

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01-21-2013, 08:18 PM
  #255
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More than all the Asian nations and New York, Los Angeles, and New Orleans?
I'm not saying American metropolises are squeaky clean, but they tend not to count as ecological disasters. Think more along the lines of a town being a Superfund site.

Here's the list. Magnitogorsk isn't included in the top 10, but it was in a further 25 of that Blacksmith Institute report.

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01-21-2013, 08:24 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Imagine if HF had been around when Sakic signed the Rangers offer sheet? That would have been fun.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.s...rsheet&lnk=ol&

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.s...333cd9dfb920ab

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01-21-2013, 08:25 PM
  #257
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Those links don't work.

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01-21-2013, 08:27 PM
  #258
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Hanzal had 0.44 PPG coming out of his ELC and got a two year bridge deal for $1.8M/year.

Bergeron had 0.73 PPG coming out of his ELC and got a five year deal for $4.75M/year.

Duchene had 0.7 PPG coming out of his ELC and got a two year bridge deal for $3.5M/year.

Sutter had 0.36 PPG coming out of his ELC and got a three year deal for $2.06M/year.

Backes had 0.42 PPG coming out of his ELC and got a three year deal for $2.5M/year. That was even an offer sheet from Vancouver that Blues matched.

Callahan had 0.40 PPG coming out of his ELC and got a two year bridge deal for $2.3M/year.

Kesler had 0,3 PPG coming out of his ELC and got a three year deal for $1.75M/year.

I'm struggling really hard with the idea of ROR (0.45 PPG) being offered the same contract as Duchene being a slap in the face. You who claim this, what comparables are you using? You who claim that a five year $5M/year deal would be fine, what comparables are you using?

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01-21-2013, 08:28 PM
  #259
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Those links don't work.
They work for me.

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01-21-2013, 08:28 PM
  #260
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He didn't ask for specifics. He just asked if there was someone with the same PPG that got $4M+ and those two guys did.

Lucic had 34 goals after three seasons and O'Reilly has 39 goals. I think Lucic was also playing with Savard at the time. Lucic sets a tone physically, O'Reilly does it with his hard work and defense.

I don't know if it was his second year in the league or third but I know Staal was on Malkin's wing in one of those playoffs.
This situation sucks... IMHO its pretty clear that something around 4-4.25M per year is pretty reasonable, regardless if it is 2yrs or 5-6yrs.

It's is very frustating that they can't get to that middle ground, and the question is: Who is being unreasonable here? Is O'Reilly asking for 5M on a long deal or are the Avs insisting in that 3.5-3.75 range?

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01-21-2013, 08:30 PM
  #261
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They work for me (?)
Then share what they say, because the links aren't working for me either unfortunately.

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01-21-2013, 08:31 PM
  #262
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This situation sucks... IMHO its pretty clear that something around 4-4.25M per year is pretty reasonable, regardless if it is 2yrs or 5-6yrs.

It's is very frustating that they can't get to that middle ground, and the question is: Who is being unreasonable here? Is O'Reilly asking for 5M on a long deal or are the Avs insisting in that 3.5-3.75 range?
I think both sides may have "dug in" so to speak...but if we were to look at history alone, one would have to think that it's the Avalanche organization that might be being a bit unreasonable.

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01-21-2013, 08:33 PM
  #263
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Then share what they say, because the links aren't working for me either unfortunately.
It's basically a bunch of people debating whether or not the Avs should match the Rangers' offer sheet or take the picks.

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01-21-2013, 08:35 PM
  #264
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It's basically a bunch of people debating whether or not the Avs should match the Rangers' offer sheet or take the picks.
Easy. Take the picks.

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01-21-2013, 08:41 PM
  #265
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Easy. Take the picks.
I'm just glad I am not a GM.


Last edited by 18007: 01-21-2013 at 08:50 PM.
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01-21-2013, 08:45 PM
  #266
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Hell no! 8x5? WAY TOO MUCH RISK. I don't think he's even proven he's worth 5M for one season, but then we are gonna lock it in for close to a decade? Admittedly by the last few years it MIGHT become a bargain, but no thanks. I don't think he's EARNED $5M per regardless of the term.

I don't love 3*4.33 either, though it is not near as bad. $4M per avg is the MAX for me, regardless of term, until he PROVES more. It's not that I don't think he can do it, but you just can't reward for predictions of what he might do. If anybody who knows hockey were able to predict his future so well, and he is so valuable, 30 teams would not have found someone else they preferred so recently. Views change. Players get hot, players get cold, players work in some situations, and not so well in others. $4M per year is already a HUGE bet on his future potential. It's a HUGE raise, especially for a defensive specialist. It's also enough above Duchene and Landeskog. CANNOT go beyond that in my mind.

$3.5 per short term is a quite good offer. $4M is an excellent offer given what he's accomplished so far.
Not saying I would do it because I wouldn't but strictly speaking in contract terms, the idea behind the 8 year deal is because the Avs would be buying FOUR YEARS of UFA from O'Reilly and that comes with a price.

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Jarret Stoll is pretty comparable too bad his contract was signed pre lockout. Pretty nice contracts he signed there.
I don't agree. I think Stoll is a true 3rd line center, (not good enough to carry a 2nd line offensively) although he's very good defensively.

I think the ideal comparable for me is Joe Pavelski. (I think Bergeron is what we'd hope RoR would eventually turn into but he's not at that level yet) I think that's where I put O'Reilly's value 'player-wise'. Now, RoR is only 22 and has a good chance to get even better.

The only real way out of the stalemate is for a 6 year deal at $4.25-$4.5M. It's a hefty price but you're buying TWO UFA years from him and that can be the justification from the Avs side. From RoR's side, he's still getting a very nice payday and while not exactly the $5M he hoped for, it's a very good deal for him when you consider what impending UFAs Zajac and Lupul just signed for.

I still think he'll be traded because of this nonsense though but I hope I'm wrong because I'd prefer to keep him long-term.

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01-21-2013, 08:47 PM
  #267
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I know Avs are really into bridge deals, but if I was in charge I would say "There is no way we're doing this again in 17 months time" and demand a 6+ year deal.

Of course I like O'Reilly so a long term deal has always been my preference. He's as low risk as you can get. At worst he'll be a 45 point guy with shutdown defense. At best, add 20 or so points.
At worst...do you really, honestly like paying a 3rd line center 5 Large? Honestly? And to be honest here...I don't see the AVs continuing to pony money up for three solid sets of wingers who can score...especially if one of the three centers enjoys Russian Winters a lot more than the scenery in Vail or whatever. In Soviet Russia, you don't shave your face...your woman shaves her.

I understand we all have different backgrounds and different lines of thoughts but I am beyond being of a mind to want to have ROR on my team now. I want him gone. He'll forever be an example of what brought us to locking out an entire year and he'll be an early warning sign of the next lockout. He's asking entirely too much money for what he's provided in terms of a team's overall payroll. I'm done with being a fan of him and I only hope we get a modest return.

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01-21-2013, 08:49 PM
  #268
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Then share what they say, because the links aren't working for me either unfortunately.
Must be NA only, try using a US proxy to view.

Mostly what Freud wanted, people discussing the NYR sheet in the early interwebs days. Some saying Sakic wasn't worth keeping for all the picks, some saying we should use them to get Lecavalier, others discussing how many cups the Rangers we're destined to have with Gretzky and Sakic. Not as much drama, but you didn't see a lot of that back then, it was a more tame environment really.

Also, as I said before... Jordan Staal's first contract is the right comparable for O'Reilly imo. I think Ryan is better defensively and may be equal offensively down the road. Given Staal was on a better team and had a better breakout, but the cap has increased since, I like 4x4 as a base. 4.25 over 5 years seems perfect.

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01-21-2013, 08:50 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Hanzal had 0.44 PPG coming out of his ELC and got a two year bridge deal for $1.8M/year.

Bergeron had 0.73 PPG coming out of his ELC and got a five year deal for $4.75M/year.

Duchene had 0.7 PPG coming out of his ELC and got a two year bridge deal for $3.5M/year.

Sutter had 0.36 PPG coming out of his ELC and got a three year deal for $2.06M/year.

Backes had 0.42 PPG coming out of his ELC and got a three year deal for $2.5M/year. That was even an offer sheet from Vancouver that Blues matched.

Callahan had 0.40 PPG coming out of his ELC and got a two year bridge deal for $2.3M/year.

Kesler had 0,3 PPG coming out of his ELC and got a three year deal for $1.75M/year.

I'm struggling really hard with the idea of ROR (0.45 PPG) being offered the same contract as Duchene being a slap in the face. You who claim this, what comparables are you using? You who claim that a five year $5M/year deal would be fine, what comparables are you using?
Of those guys you pointed out, outside of Bergeron, neither had a year quite like what O'Reilly just had. Most of those guys had actually scored less points in the final year of their ELC then the year before.

O'Reilly was fortunate to have had his carrer year (until now) on his contract year.

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01-21-2013, 08:52 PM
  #270
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Of those guys you pointed out, outside of Bergeron, neither had a year quite like what O'Reilly just had. Most of those guys had actually scored less points in the final year of their ELC then the year before.

O'Reilly was fortunate to have had his carrer year (until now) on his contract year.
You love to point out last year, but you absolutely won't look as his career as a whole.

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01-21-2013, 08:53 PM
  #271
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Hanzal was coming off of a 33 point season at the end of his ELC and didn't lead his team in scoring.

Duchene was coming off of a 28 point season at the end of his ELC and didn't lead his team in scoring.

Sutter was coming off of a 29 point season at the end of his ELC and didn't lead his team in scoring.

Backes was coming off of a 31 point season at the end of his ELC and didn't lead his team in scoring.

Callahan was coming off of a 40 point season at the end of his ELC and didn't lead his team in scoring.

Kesler was coming off of a 16 point season at the end of his ELC and didn't lead his team in scoring.

Young players who have potential are going to get better with age and experience. O'Reilly played a bigger role and got more ice time in his third season and his production increased as well. That's a better indication of what kind of player he can be. Of course him and his agent are going to look at the third season rather than a PPG average over all three seasons.

Jordan Staal is a better comparison than any of those guys.

You're going to have to ask TPS directly about the slap in the face comment and offering him a five year $5M/year deal because I believe he is the only one who said that.

I never said offering him the same deal as Duchene is a slap in the face to O'Reilly. Some are suggesting that O'Reilly can't make more than Duchene/EJ and I think that is a slap in the face to him. It's also just dumb. He showed up and was arguably our best player last season. I don't blame the Avs for offering him the same deal they offered Duchene and I don't blame O'Reilly for rejecting it.

I also completely disagree with those who are saying they would take O'Reilly over Duchene. I'm taking Duchene without any hesitation and I'm positive the Avs would do the same.

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01-21-2013, 08:56 PM
  #272
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At worst...do you really, honestly like paying a 3rd line center 5 Large? Honestly? And to be honest here...I don't see the AVs continuing to pony money up for three solid sets of wingers who can score...especially if one of the three centers enjoys Russian Winters a lot more than the scenery in Vail or whatever. In Soviet Russia, you don't shave your face...your woman shaves her.

I understand we all have different backgrounds and different lines of thoughts but I am beyond being of a mind to want to have ROR on my team now. I want him gone. He'll forever be an example of what brought us to locking out an entire year and he'll be an early warning sign of the next lockout. He's asking entirely too much money for what he's provided in terms of a team's overall payroll. I'm done with being a fan of him and I only hope we get a modest return.
I don't think you should let emotions dictate what you should do. It's business, both from Avs and O'Reillys side. It may be frustrating, but I don't see why any bridges should be burned here.

If I had any reason to believe he wouldn't be the same type of player coming back, I'd want him out of here. But I don't.

If Avs could get over Sakic signing an offer sheet, they can get over O'Reilly and his agent being obstinate. Perhaps Sakic could remind the others, should they get their panties in a twist over this.

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01-21-2013, 09:00 PM
  #273
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It's basically a bunch of people debating whether or not the Avs should match the Rangers' offer sheet or take the picks.
I see, I see.

Thanks man.

Personally, I still can't believe the amount of villainy that O'Reilly is undergoing in this thread, when Mr. Avalanche himself, Joe Sakic, who is my all-time favorite player, signed that offer sheet knowing what it would mean to the Colorado Avalanche should they match.

But I don't blame him one bit, he was looking out for himself, as he should. Because at the end of the day, Professional Sports is a business, and no one looks out for the players but the players themselves. What I mean by that is you can't count on an Organization like you can count on yourself. Eventually organizations move on, they're forced to, it's part of the cycle.

And I'm tired of hearing that "it's not the same situation". I realize it's not, but what IS the same from the two situations is this: Both were RFA's, and both used/are using another team's offer/contract to leverage a better deal with the Avalanche.

The real question we should be asking is why are we so forgiving of the Avalanche's Upper Management? I don't generally have a problem with Greg Sherman, he's in general done quite well with the mess that Francois Giguere left him. But isn't anyone else just tired of good players getting into contract disputes with the team that ultimately led them to being traded? I mean I know it's been brought up, but the Drury trade was nothing short of absolutely terrible. Even if Drury didn't end up being a Top-Line, #1 Center, he still was someone that was invaluable to most of the teams he played on throughout the rest of his career (end of his NYR stint could be debated).

But we know that the trade certainly set the Avalanche back a bit, they never truly recovered from losing his talent on the defensive side of the game, as well as the FO side, and he still had an offensive touch...it seems like with Ryan O'Reilly we were finally filling that gaping hole that Drury had left all those years ago.

I'm trying to remain in the center of this issue here, but historical precedence has me leaning toward ROR's side on this issue.

Other teams are paying for potential on some of the contracts being handed out after ELC's, so whether we or the Avalanche Management like it or not, market's are being SET by them. I know they're a fan of the "bridge" contract, and honestly I don't mind them, but that doesn't mean that EVERY player should just roll over and take one. If Ryan wants to be here longterm, then they need to get creative and find a way to make that happen.

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01-21-2013, 09:07 PM
  #274
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I see, I see.

Thanks man.

Personally, I still can't believe the amount of villainy that O'Reilly is undergoing in this thread, when Mr. Avalanche himself, Joe Sakic, who is my all-time favorite player, signed that offer sheet knowing what it would mean to the Colorado Avalanche should they match.

But I don't blame him one bit, he was looking out for himself, as he should. Because at the end of the day, Professional Sports is a business, and no one looks out for the players but the players themselves. What I mean by that is you can't count on an Organization like you can count on yourself. Eventually organizations move on, they're forced to, it's part of the cycle.

And I'm tired of hearing that "it's not the same situation". I realize it's not, but what IS the same from the two situations is this: Both were RFA's, and both used/are using another team's offer/contract to leverage a better deal with the Avalanche.

The real question we should be asking is why are we so forgiving of the Avalanche's Upper Management? I don't generally have a problem with Greg Sherman, he's in general done quite well with the mess that Francois Giguere left him. But isn't anyone else just tired of good players getting into contract disputes with the team that ultimately led them to being traded? I mean I know it's been brought up, but the Drury trade was nothing short of absolutely terrible. Even if Drury didn't end up being a Top-Line, #1 Center, he still was someone that was invaluable to most of the teams he played on throughout the rest of his career (end of his NYR stint could be debated).

But we know that the trade certainly set the Avalanche back a bit, they never truly recovered from losing his talent on the defensive side of the game, as well as the FO side, and he still had an offensive touch...it seems like with Ryan O'Reilly we were finally filling that gaping hole that Drury had left all those years ago.

I'm trying to remain in the center of this issue here, but historical precedence has me leaning toward ROR's side on this issue.

Other teams are paying for potential on some of the contracts being handed out after ELC's, so whether we or the Avalanche Management like it or not, market's are being SET by them. I know they're a fan of the "bridge" contract, and honestly I don't mind them, but that doesn't mean that EVERY player should just roll over and take one. If Ryan wants to be here longterm, then they need to get creative and find a way to make that happen.
Yeah, No Problem! We need to sign this guy, now, IMO.

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01-21-2013, 09:08 PM
  #275
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You love to point out last year, but you absolutely won't look as his career as a whole.
Again with the love thing?!?

I just pointed out that, unlike the other players mentioned, O'Reilly had a great final year, and obviously it plays a big role on any negotiation. And that is just to use stats as an argument.

Not to mention that O'Reilly had put himself as one of the leaders of this teams, many fans here wanted him as captain. I don't think any of those guys mentioned in that list had that kind of influence on their team at O'Reilly's age.

But i guess, it doesnt matter, probably Sherman is showing Mark Guy the PPG stat and saying that he is not worth more than Duchene.

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