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All Encompassing Tanking/Rebuilding/Selling at Deadline Thread 2.0

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Old
01-21-2013, 06:01 PM
  #226
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Originally Posted by Forgedias View Post
This is an intresting thread. In a shortenned season I really don't mind if Montreal fell out of the playoffs. You need to consider that this team doesn't have the firepower to take on the better teams in our division let alone in our conference. If we had trouble with Toronto, I think its quite safe to say, we will be having more problems as the season moves along. And for me its the Stanley Cup or bust, I'm simply not satisfied just making the playoffs, not with being a fan of the Habs.

Does Montreal need to do a clean sweep and rebuild from the ground up? Maybe, I think they actually have a good core to build around.

Alexander Galchenyuk, Max Pacioretty, Lars Eller, PK Subban, Alexei Emelin, Josh Gorges and Carey Price are all good pieces to build around. We actually have a decent enough prospect pool now that we can be calling them up as well to join the team next year.

The issue for us as fans is do we want to see the organziation to a full rebuild which would knock us out of the playoffs for a few more years or think outside the box and try to get some flexibility with our cap space and use some free agency to rebuild from. For me, I think we should do a combination of both.

We all know that Ryan Getzlaf and Correy Perry are going to be UFA's next season. The Ducks are going to try their hardest to sign them but I have a feeling they may try Free Agency and see what is out there. Each of them have been 90pt players and Getzlaf was injured last year, if he was healthy both Getzlaf and Perry would of had better point totals. What makes both these guys attractive is they are both 27yrs old. Getzlaf a big playmaking centerman that we desperately need and Perry a 50goal scorer. I think Montreal can make a play for these two players. Some of you are thinking how with our cap situation and at the moment we don't have the space to go after these guys. But... there is a way if you think outside the box.

Our cap situation for the 2013-2014 year is 54million with one buyout done on Gomez and Subban unsigned atm. Say he does sign for 5million so our cap would sit at 59million with 17 players signed. Not alot of room to sign anyone at this point right? Here is where we have to change our thinking, our roster as it stands now isn't a playoff team, and if they do manage to squeak in, then the Habs chances of winning the Cup is pretty small. As a fan I want Montreal to improve their chances to win the Cup dramatically. So we need to accept we are not a contender. At this point we need to figure out which players fit our core and which become expendable. Accepting this premise, we then need to trade players before the trade deadline which is more doable now with the Cap and trade clause in the new CBA. So here is my idea.

Players that should be traded.
The idea behind trading these players is not to get any players back in trade because they will eat cap room, only return draft picks.

Tomas Kaberle (4.2million) Possible 3rd or 4th round pick in return. (People may say he is worth a 2nd rounder, but I am being realistic in the new CBA, 4.2 million is alot for a team to take on.)

Rene Bourque (3.33million) Should be easily tradeable, possible 2nd round pick if he has a decent season or a 3rd.

Brian Gionta (5million) Gionta's production is just not worth the cap hit. Montreal would need to do a cap and trade with the other team. 3million would go their way and we would take on 2million. 2nd round pick in return best case scenario.

Andrei Markov (5.7million) Buyout Markov and his big contract. With Tinnordi and Beaulieu, both of these defenseman should be given every chance to make the club now.

Cap for 2013-2014 with all these changes factored in from the orginal 59million. We would now have a cap of 42.5million with the cap and trade with Gionta factored in. The Habs then would have 21.8million free to sign free agents.

So everything I posted here is all very doable, Kaberle and Bourque can be traded, Gionta can be traded, his contract is alot more attractive at 3million rather then 5million. So with this cap space we can make a play for both Getzlaf and Perry. Both of them are more then likely want to play together which is what the Ducks are going to offer them. But we can offer them that as well, what we can offer that stands out from the Ducks, is playing at Montreal. The hockey mecca for the NHL. No matter what a Leaf fan says, nothing beats the atmosphere at the Bell Centre. Add to this is the Ducks are rebuilding and with the loss of Shultz last season to Edminton, the idea they can rebuild anytime soon is a foregone conclussion. Anaheim isn't a prime destination for free agents. And lastly we can offer Getzlaf and Perry a high scoring linemate like that they had in Anaheim. We offer them Max Pacioretty to line up with them. Like Bobby Ryan, Pacioretty is a left winger and should slot in perfectly.

So to recap:
1)Ability to play together in their new city as the number one line
2)Location, location, location. Playing for a hockey mad city is a huge plus.
3)Max Pacioretty lining up with them offers them another high scoring powerforward like they had in Anaheim with Bobby Ryan.
4)And finally because we freed up over 20+million of cap space, we can offer them 7million each to play for us.

For Montreal.
1)We gain a top big bodied centerman in Getzlaf that can form one of two scoring lines for the Habs.
2)A 50goal scorer in Correy Perry.
3)Ability to keep Tomas Plekanec and Lars Eller so we have the 4 centerman we can build from.
4)Lastly with David Desharnais up for a big raise, we avoid going to arbitration and handing out a big raise. Desharnais would then be free to go as a free agent.

This would then allow us to move Galchenyuk up to the second line where he can center it with Erik Cole on one wing and we would then bring in Sebastian Collberg to build chemistry with Galchenyuk. These two seem destined to be linemates. Because we have Getzlaf, Perry and Pacioretty on the top line, Galchenyuk wouldn't face the same amount of pressure to provide scoring if he was on the top line. We can develop him and have him build chemistry with his linemates.

Our top 2 lines would look like this.

Pacioretty-Getzlaf-Perry

Collberg-Galchenyuk-Cole

Prust-Plekanec-------

Moen-Eller---------


Defense would look like this.

Subban-Gorges

Emelin-Beaulieu

Tinnordi-Diaz

Goalkeeper: Carey Price

With 2-3million committed to Tinnordi and Beaulieu and Collberg, we would then have close to 5million left over to fill out a backup goalkeeper, one more defenseman and 2 utility forwards. All doable with whats left in the cap.

Not only does Montreal improve from the top, we would then gain two scoring lines, have two big bodied centerman. Have 3 powerforwards on the team. Montreal would add scoring and a ton of lineup issues for other teams to match now. Montreal would be alot closer to contending for a cup with this scenario then a full rebuild,

Is this all fantasy? It is, for one thing the Ducks can resign Getzlaf and Perry and we would be relying on Marc Bergevin make the hard descision to become a seller when playoffs arrive. But as I pointed out already, this plan is all very doable. Just need to be committed to going through with it.
Let's pray management thinks this way in the off season, good thinking and a good post !!

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01-21-2013, 06:32 PM
  #227
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Trade plekanec for a 1st plus prospect Buy out Kaberle trade Gionta for whatever. Try to trade Cole at the deadline and get overpayment or keep him

14 mill free. 7.5 cap hit contract to Getzlaf or Perry the one that is available.

Paciorretty Getzlaf Bourque
Collberg Galchenyuk Cole
Gallagher Eller Desharnais
Prust Dumont Moen

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01-21-2013, 07:48 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Dharvey33 View Post
Trade plekanec for a 1st plus prospect Buy out Kaberle trade Gionta for whatever. Try to trade Cole at the deadline and get overpayment or keep him

14 mill free. 7.5 cap hit contract to Getzlaf or Perry the one that is available.

Paciorretty Getzlaf Bourque
Collberg Galchenyuk Cole
Gallagher Eller Desharnais
Prust Dumont Moen
I don't see Perry or Getzlaff coming here. First, they'd have to leave the Ducks. Second, they'd have to choose us. Why choose us when the team is a mess? I don't see them going someplace that isn't a contender.

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Old
01-21-2013, 07:55 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I don't see Perry or Getzlaff coming here. First, they'd have to leave the Ducks. Second, they'd have to choose us. Why choose us when the team is a mess? I don't see them going someplace that isn't a contender.
Getzlaf I can see if the Habs give him a ridiculous contract, but he'd probably phone it in after getting paid.

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01-21-2013, 08:06 PM
  #230
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give him a Parise contract 9 millions 8 years 7.5 cap hit .

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01-21-2013, 08:28 PM
  #231
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Reading this thread is making me laugh. It is amazing how few of you realize that the real NHL isn't like your fantasy hockey games.

No, Tinordi and Beaulieu are nowhere near NHL ready for the next two years. No, we aren't trading half our roster for picks just because we lost our first damn game, and no, we are not buying out Markov!

Are you people actually for real?

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01-21-2013, 08:30 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Dharvey33 View Post
give him a Parise contract 9 millions 8 years 7.5 cap hit .
We can't offer more than 7 years.

The only way we're getting Getzlaf or Perry is if Bergevin demonstrates intelligence and deals as many vets as possible, so as to clear cap space.

If we offer the best contract, we have a good shot.

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01-21-2013, 08:31 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I don't see Perry or Getzlaff coming here. First, they'd have to leave the Ducks. Second, they'd have to choose us. Why choose us when the team is a mess? I don't see them going someplace that isn't a contender.
Getting both these guys is a pipedream, I realize, but I don't see why Montreal would be a less attractive UFA location than Minnesota. We'd have to do some serious salary-dumping to make room and promote ourselves as a young, rebuilding up-and-coming team, but if it worked it would be an express track to becoming a contender in a couple of years. Like I said, I can't see it happening, but not because Montreal's automatically considered a worse choice than other franchises.

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01-21-2013, 08:37 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Getzlaf I can see if the Habs give him a ridiculous contract, but he'd probably phone it in after getting paid.
Why would Getzlaf not deliver here? Any other star joins any other team and we get player-envy, but the thought of the Habs signing a big name sends us into fits of self-doubt. Why? Have we become that Gomezphobic?

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01-21-2013, 08:47 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
Reading this thread is making me laugh. It is amazing how few of you realize that the real NHL isn't like your fantasy hockey games.

No, Tinordi and Beaulieu are nowhere near NHL ready for the next two years. No, we aren't trading half our roster for picks just because we lost our first damn game, and no, we are not buying out Markov!

Are you people actually for real?
Are you? You sit there and defend everything the team does. Well, how did it feel watching us finish 15th last year? Did you like it when we stuck ourselves with Kaberle (oh wait, that's right you actually did.)

You see us for what you want us to be, not for what we are. The Habs aren't a good team man and we haven't been a good team in a long, long time.

Wake up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
Getting both these guys is a pipedream, I realize, but I don't see why Montreal would be a less attractive UFA location than Minnesota. We'd have to do some serious salary-dumping to make room and promote ourselves as a young, rebuilding up-and-coming team, but if it worked it would be an express track to becoming a contender in a couple of years. Like I said, I can't see it happening, but not because Montreal's automatically considered a worse choice than other franchises.
To be honest I was shocked they went to Minnesota too. It should be noted that they're buddies though and Parise's from Minnesota so that probably had a lot to do with it.

I'm surprised more players don't want to come here but the taxes, language and media I guess are enough to scare a lot of players off. Unless you're a Hab fan I can understand why players don't sign with us.

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Old
01-21-2013, 08:58 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Are you? You sit there and defend everything the team does. Well, how did it feel watching us finish 15th last year? Did you like it when we stuck ourselves with Kaberle (oh wait, that's right you actually did.)

You see us for what you want us to be, not for what we are. The Habs aren't a good team man and we haven't been a good team in a long, long time.

Wake up.
I'm living in reality: we have a good, young core with Price, Subban, Pacioretty, Galchenyuk. Subban and Price aren't even close to their prime yet, and Pacioretty is really starting to improve. Why the hell would you want to rebuild? You just build OFF that talent, you don't trade away all your support. When you have a young core, you don't trade away almost all your veterans for picks. How else are the youth supposed to develop properly and efficiently?

Honestly, whoever thinks we should trade most of our veterans seriously just doesn't know anything about hockey. If some of you seriously think Beaulieu and Tinordi are NHL ready, and Markov should be bought out, you need to give your head a shake because those were the two dumbest things I've read all day. Almost every single post I read in this thread makes me cringe.

Finishing 15th last year was due to many reasons and you know it, specifically how we were the worst in the league at shootouts and struggled with huge injuries. By the way, I have no clue what you're talking about when it comes to Kaberle because I have always preferred Spacek. Don't put words in my mouth.

Stop thinking this is your little NHL 13 for Xbox or whatever. You don't trade half your team away for picks (first of all, it's stupid as hell, and second, you probably can't). You don't "tank" on purpose when you have a good young core.

The lack of hockey logic in this thread absolutely blows my mind.

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01-21-2013, 09:13 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
I'm living in reality: we have a good, young core with Price, Subban, Pacioretty, Galchenyuk. Subban and Price aren't even close to their prime yet, and Pacioretty is really starting to improve. Why the hell would you want to rebuild? You just build OFF that talent, you don't trade away all your support. When you have a young core, you don't trade away almost all your veterans for picks. How else are the youth supposed to develop properly and efficiently?

Honestly, whoever thinks we should trade most of our veterans seriously just doesn't know anything about hockey. If some of you seriously think Beaulieu and Tinordi are NHL ready, and Markov should be bought out, you need to give your head a shake because those were the two dumbest things I've read all day. Almost every single post I read in this thread makes me cringe.

Finishing 15th last year was due to many reasons and you know it, specifically how we were the worst in the league at shootouts and struggled with huge injuries. By the way, I have no clue what you're talking about when it comes to Kaberle because I have always preferred Spacek. Don't put words in my mouth.

Stop thinking this is your little NHL 13 for Xbox or whatever. You don't trade half your team away for picks (first of all, it's stupid as hell, and second, you probably can't). You don't "tank" on purpose when you have a good young core.

The lack of hockey logic in this thread absolutely blows my mind.
How about the last 15 years? Has that blown your mind?

Did letting our core (the same core tons of people - including you - said we couldn't give up on) walk away for nothing blow your mind?

Did the Gomez trade blow your mind? The Roy trade? The years we wasted going for 8th and not rebuilding?

You can sit there and say it has nothing to do with the team we have today but the common thread is... guys like you. Guys who wear rose coloured glasses no matter what the club does. The apologists who always say - wait till next year - as though not doing anything to really improve will somehow magically result in a championship.

When will you realize that we're not great? Being the Montreal Canadiens doesn't entitle us to cups? We actually have to build towards champoinships.

Price, Subban and Galchenyuk are a great start. Maybe if we're lucky they and the rest of the youngsters we have coming up will be enough. But if we're not winning anything now anyway (AND WE'RE NOT - GET THIS THROUGH YOUR HEAD) then we should do something proactive about it and add to that core.

We've said it for years and for years the club has done the opposite. Don't come here now and pretend like we've been wrong. YOU have been wrong.

I'm sorry but for you to come here and pretend we're great... you have no credibility.

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01-21-2013, 09:30 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
How about the last 15 years? Has that blown your mind?

Did letting our core (the same core tons of people - including you - said we couldn't give up on) walk away for nothing blow your mind?

Did the Gomez trade blow your mind? The Roy trade? The years we wasted going for 8th and not rebuilding?

You can sit there and say it has nothing to do with the team we have today but the common thread is... guys like you. Guys who wear rose coloured glasses no matter what the club does. The apologists who always say - wait till next year - as though not doing anything to really improve will somehow magically result in a championship.

When will you realize that we're not great? Being the Montreal Canadiens doesn't entitle us to cups? We actually have to build towards champoinships.

Price, Subban and Galchenyuk are a great start. Maybe if we're lucky they and the rest of the youngsters we have coming up will be enough. But if we're not winning anything now anyway (AND WE'RE NOT - GET THIS THROUGH YOUR HEAD) then we should do something proactive about it and add to that core.

We've said it for years and for years the club has done the opposite. Don't come here now and pretend like we've been wrong. YOU have been wrong.

I'm sorry but for you to come here and pretend we're great... you have no credibility.
On the contrary. I never said we were great, I said we had a good core. You putting words in my mouth to try winning an internet argument shows, in fact, that "you have no credibility".

The first three paragraphs of your post are so silly. Are they just filler to make your argument look bigger? Why are you asking questions about the past when the current management is 100% different from then? And why are you asking questions with obvious answers? Stop being pretentious.

People like you, people who think rebuilding is the answer to all the club's woes, make me laugh. First of all, rebuilding is all about luck. I see you posting all around the boards, whining that our current prospects are too many "IFs" and "BUTs". What, may I ask, is a bigger "if and but" than the damn draft? A NHL entry draft is one of the biggest gambles in the league, you draft players and HOPE they do well. It's like a lottery. So when you complain about how our team has too many "IFs" and then turn around and want our team to put 100% of our efforts into a draft, which is THE KING OF IF'S, just seems so silly in my eyes.

I'm the one saying we need to build, build towards championships. But you and others on the boards cry for "rebuilding" which is NOT the same thing and far more risky. We can build around this good core of youth, but trading away ALL the veterans is so stupid! How can you not see that trading away Cole, who obviously helped Pacioretty tremendously last year, is a BAD idea? How can you not see that trading Markov, who can teach Subban and our defense SO MUCH, is a bad idea? Keeping veteran leadership is mandatory on any team.

I'm not wearing rose-coloured glasses, and I never said everything is okay. This team isn't looking amazing obviously. But stop pretending like you've always had the right idea all along. Stop pretending HFBoards has always been right, "saying it for years and years". I remember, one or two years ago, reading these boards, and you were preaching the same thing you are preaching now: rebuilding and making big trades for the future. You ended your argument by saying we needed to trade Pacioretty and a 1st round pick for James Van-Riemsdyk because our team needed a good young power forward to build around. Now, looking back, can you imagine how stupid that would've been? Giving up Pacioretty and Galchenyuk for JVR? Ridiculous.

So yes, YOU have been the one who is wrong. Listening to the stupid ideas of ridiculous trades on these boards would be the dumbest thing the Habs management could do. You, and everyone else preaching this stupid rebuild have no idea how that would result, and neither do I. Betting this team on hoping for the best is ridiculous. Marc Bergevin has been the GM of this team for one NHL game and you already want him to blow up this team for a bunch of kids. Do you see how silly that sounds? This thread is gibberish and you can guarantee that experts would never be spewing the garbage that is in this thread.

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01-21-2013, 09:43 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
I'm living in reality: we have a good, young core with Price, Subban, Pacioretty, Galchenyuk. Subban and Price aren't even close to their prime yet, and Pacioretty is really starting to improve. Why the hell would you want to rebuild? You just build OFF that talent, you don't trade away all your support. When you have a young core, you don't trade away almost all your veterans for picks. How else are the youth supposed to develop properly and efficiently?

Honestly, whoever thinks we should trade most of our veterans seriously just doesn't know anything about hockey. If some of you seriously think Beaulieu and Tinordi are NHL ready, and Markov should be bought out, you need to give your head a shake because those were the two dumbest things I've read all day. Almost every single post I read in this thread makes me cringe.

Finishing 15th last year was due to many reasons and you know it, specifically how we were the worst in the league at shootouts and struggled with huge injuries. By the way, I have no clue what you're talking about when it comes to Kaberle because I have always preferred Spacek. Don't put words in my mouth.

Stop thinking this is your little NHL 13 for Xbox or whatever. You don't trade half your team away for picks (first of all, it's stupid as hell, and second, you probably can't). You don't "tank" on purpose when you have a good young core.

The lack of hockey logic in this thread absolutely blows my mind.
Best post in this thread AINEC.

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01-21-2013, 09:46 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
On the contrary. I never said we were great, I said we had a good core. You putting words in my mouth to try winning an internet argument shows, in fact, that "you have no credibility".

The first three paragraphs of your post are so silly. Are they just filler to make your argument look bigger? Why are you asking questions about the past when the current management is 100% different from then? And why are you asking questions with obvious answers? Stop being pretentious.

People like you, people who think rebuilding is the answer to all the club's woes, make me laugh. First of all, rebuilding is all about luck. I see you posting all around the boards, whining that our current prospects are too many "IFs" and "BUTs". What, may I ask, is a bigger "if and but" than the damn draft? A NHL entry draft is one of the biggest gambles in the league, you draft players and HOPE they do well. It's like a lottery. So when you complain about how our team has too many "IFs" and then turn around and want our team to put 100% of our efforts into a draft, which is THE KING OF IF'S, just seems so silly in my eyes.

I'm the one saying we need to build, build towards championships. But you and others on the boards cry for "rebuilding" which is NOT the same thing and far more risky. We can build around this good core of youth, but trading away ALL the veterans is so stupid! How can you not see that trading away Cole, who obviously helped Pacioretty tremendously last year, is a BAD idea? How can you not see that trading Markov, who can teach Subban and our defense SO MUCH, is a bad idea? Keeping veteran leadership is mandatory on any team.

I'm not wearing rose-coloured glasses, and I never said everything is okay. This team isn't looking amazing obviously. But stop pretending like you've always had the right idea all along. Stop pretending HFBoards has always been right, "saying it for years and years". I remember, one or two years ago, reading these boards, and you were preaching the same thing you are preaching now: rebuilding and making big trades for the future. You ended your argument by saying we needed to trade Pacioretty and a 1st round pick for James Van-Riemsdyk because our team needed a good young power forward to build around. Now, looking back, can you imagine how stupid that would've been? Giving up Pacioretty and Galchenyuk for JVR? Ridiculous.

So yes, YOU have been the one who is wrong. Listening to the stupid ideas of ridiculous trades on these boards would be the dumbest thing the Habs management could do. You, and everyone else preaching this stupid rebuild have no idea how that would result, and neither do I. Betting this team on hoping for the best is ridiculous. Marc Bergevin has been the GM of this team for one NHL game and you already want him to blow up this team for a bunch of kids. Do you see how silly that sounds? This thread is gibberish and you can guarantee that experts would never be spewing the garbage that is in this thread.
I take that back. This is the best post in this thread AINEC lol..

Who are you and where have you been?

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01-21-2013, 09:49 PM
  #241
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Best post in this thread AINEC.
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
I take that back. This is the best post in this thread AINEC lol..

Who are you and where have you been?
Thank you, my friend.

I posted often last year, but slowed down during the lockout to more of a reader than a writer on these boards. Glad you share the same point of view.

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01-21-2013, 09:53 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
I'm living in reality: we have a good, young core with Price, Subban, Pacioretty, Galchenyuk. Subban and Price aren't even close to their prime yet, and Pacioretty is really starting to improve. Why the hell would you want to rebuild? You just build OFF that talent, you don't trade away all your support. When you have a young core, you don't trade away almost all your veterans for picks. How else are the youth supposed to develop properly and efficiently?

Honestly, whoever thinks we should trade most of our veterans seriously just doesn't know anything about hockey. If some of you seriously think Beaulieu and Tinordi are NHL ready, and Markov should be bought out, you need to give your head a shake because those were the two dumbest things I've read all day. Almost every single post I read in this thread makes me cringe.

Finishing 15th last year was due to many reasons and you know it, specifically how we were the worst in the league at shootouts and struggled with huge injuries. By the way, I have no clue what you're talking about when it comes to Kaberle because I have always preferred Spacek. Don't put words in my mouth.

Stop thinking this is your little NHL 13 for Xbox or whatever. You don't trade half your team away for picks (first of all, it's stupid as hell, and second, you probably can't). You don't "tank" on purpose when you have a good young core.

The lack of hockey logic in this thread absolutely blows my mind.
great post but if we can trade kaberle I don't think anybody would be against it right? We already have 4 picks in the top sixty maybe even top 40 as Nashville and Calgary are also pretty bad which is a great start to add on to our young core to be a contender in 2 or 3 years

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01-21-2013, 09:58 PM
  #243
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Originally Posted by galchenyuktocollberg View Post
great post but if we can trade kaberle I don't think anybody would be against it right? We already have 4 picks in the top sixty maybe even top 40 as Nashville and Calgary are also pretty bad which is a great start to add on to our young core to be a contender in 2 or 3 years
Nobody is against getting rid of dead weight. I didn't like the kaberle trade. I preferred Spacek's expiring contract, so no, I wouldn't be opposed to dealing Kabs, but dealing pleks, cole, markov is beyond silly and counter-productive.

Young players need leadership to help shape them as professionals. Getting rid of all the support turns us into every other crappy team that has finished in the bottom of the standings year after year.

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01-21-2013, 10:04 PM
  #244
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John,

It isn't valid to argue that rebuilding is a luck-dependent strategy, as all strategies are luck-dependent.

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01-21-2013, 10:06 PM
  #245
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Originally Posted by galchenyuktocollberg View Post
great post but if we can trade kaberle I don't think anybody would be against it right? We already have 4 picks in the top sixty maybe even top 40 as Nashville and Calgary are also pretty bad which is a great start to add on to our young core to be a contender in 2 or 3 years
Thank you for your kind words. And my opinion pretty much exactly mirrors what habsfanatics says below in response to your post.

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Nobody is against getting rid of dead weight. I didn't like the kaberle trade. I preferred Spacek's expiring contract, so no, I wouldn't be opposed to dealing Kabs, but dealing pleks, cole, markov is beyond silly and counter-productive.

Young players need leadership to help shape them as professionals. Getting rid of all the support turns us into every other crappy team that has finished in the bottom of the standings year after year.
Exactly. No one will object to trading dead weight, or trading a player for an obviously good return. I have always been of of the opinion that Spacek was the superior defensive player and had a bigger place on the Habs. Also, I would've preferred his smaller and expiring contract than Kaberle's.

If we can trade some players, even a good veteran or two, for a great return, I am all for it. I just think that trading all our veterans is a silly idea, and I feel that we need veteran leadership to help our young core develop efficiently.

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John,

It isn't valid to argue that rebuilding is a luck-dependent strategy, as all strategies are luck-dependent.
I understand your point, but what I am saying is that drafting is the most luck-dependent of any hockey strategies, wouldn't you agree? Trading for an established player involves a smaller gamble than drafting in the top 15.

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01-21-2013, 10:09 PM
  #246
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Thank you for your kind words. And my opinion pretty much exactly mirrors what habsfanatics says below in response to your post.



Exactly. No one will object to trading dead weight, or trading a player for an obviously good return. I have always been of of the opinion that Spacek was the superior defensive player and had a bigger place on the Habs. Also, I would've preferred his smaller and expiring contract than Kaberle's.

If we can trade some players, even a good veteran or two, for a great return, I am all for it. I just think that trading all our veterans is a silly idea, and I feel that we need veteran leadership to help our young core develop efficiently.



I understand your point, but what I am saying is that drafting is the most luck-dependent of any hockey strategies, wouldn't you agree? Trading for an established player involves a smaller gamble than drafting in the top 15.
I 100% agree.

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01-21-2013, 10:11 PM
  #247
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If we can trade some players, even a good veteran or two, for a great return, I am all for it. I just think that trading all our veterans is a silly idea, and I feel that we need veteran leadership to help our young core develop efficiently.
Strawman.

Nobody supports losing all the veterans. We support trading some veterans.

Actually, I specifically said, if by some miracle we did ship out all the veterans (I give that a 3% chance), the youth would only be without veteran leadership for ~15 games. With 30 million in cap space, we would obviously replace a few of these guys.

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01-21-2013, 10:11 PM
  #248
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I'm living in reality: we have a good, young core with Price, Subban, Pacioretty, Galchenyuk. Subban and Price aren't even close to their prime yet, and Pacioretty is really starting to improve. Why the hell would you want to rebuild? You just build OFF that talent, you don't trade away all your support. When you have a young core, you don't trade away almost all your veterans for picks. How else are the youth supposed to develop properly and efficiently?

Honestly, whoever thinks we should trade most of our veterans seriously just doesn't know anything about hockey. If some of you seriously think Beaulieu and Tinordi are NHL ready, and Markov should be bought out, you need to give your head a shake because those were the two dumbest things I've read all day. Almost every single post I read in this thread makes me cringe.

Finishing 15th last year was due to many reasons and you know it, specifically how we were the worst in the league at shootouts and struggled with huge injuries. By the way, I have no clue what you're talking about when it comes to Kaberle because I have always preferred Spacek. Don't put words in my mouth.

Stop thinking this is your little NHL 13 for Xbox or whatever. You don't trade half your team away for picks (first of all, it's stupid as hell, and second, you probably can't). You don't "tank" on purpose when you have a good young core.

The lack of hockey logic in this thread absolutely blows my mind.
We have a good young core, but unless we surround them with similarly talented players we ain't winning a thing. Sure, we have good pieces, but what's that worth if they're no better than half the league's good pieces? We need superiority.

Right now, our crop of prospects is better than we've had in ages. They're supposedly among the top 10 in the league. If we're lucky, guys like Tinordi and Beaulieu will join Subban, Gorges, and Emelin to give us a moderately superior defense in about three years. But even then we probably ain't going all the way because our offence looks weak next to other contending teams. We'll need more goal-scorers than Galchenyuk and Pacioretty, and our secondary scoring has to be much better. Again, we have to be superior, not just adequate. If we're really lucky, guys like Gallagher and Collberg can develop into superior third-line forwards, and Eller will become a solid 20-goal scorer.

But will that make us superior, as in a top-five team? Impossible to say, but right now I'd say no. We might have enough for a strong second and third line, but I still think we're missing one more power forward or a sniper -- one more superior piece that can take us from 'good' to 'great'. Make no mistake -- we have a long way to go to become a strong-scoring team, and our young core won't get us there by themselves. One option is to blow our load on a star UFA, if we're able. The other option is drafting a top pick this year, in the hope that he becomes our missing piece in three or four years. Who should we give away to get that pick? The answer is easy: anyone -- that means ANYONE -- who won't be here in three or four years. 2016 is our focus. Anyone who can't be there is expendable.


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01-21-2013, 10:16 PM
  #249
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We have a good young core, but unless we surround them with similarly talented players we ain't winning a thing. We desperately need depth of talent that's better than everyone else's depth of talent. Sure, we have good pieces, but what's that worth if they're no better than half the league's good pieces? We need superiority.

Right now, our crop of prospects is better than we've had in ages. They're supposedly among the top 10 in the league. So yes, if we're lucky, guys like Tinordi and Beaulieu will join Subban, Gorges, and Emelin to give us a moderately superior defense in about three years. But even then we probably ain't going all the way because our offence looks weak next to other contending teams. We'll need more goal-scorers than Galchenyuk and Pacioretty, and our secondary scoring has to be much better. Again, we have to be superior, not just adequate. If we're really lucky, guys like Gallagher and Collberg can develop into superior third-line forwards, and Eller will become a solid 20-goal scorer.

But will that make us superior, as in a top-five team? Impossible to say, but right now I'd say no. We might have enough for a strong second and third line, but I still think we're missing one more power forward, a sniper -- one more superior piece that can take us from 'good' to 'great'. Sure, we can blow our load on a star UFA, if we're able. The other option is drafting a top pick this year, in the hope that he becomes our missing piece in three or four years. Who should we give away to get that pick? The answer is easy: anyone -- that means ANYONE -- who won't be here in three or four years.
Out of our players who aren't part of the long term plans ie, three to four years from now, how many are worth a top pick? Zero. It's not happening. It's sound good in theory, but no one is giving us a lottery pick for our castaways. Players outside of the top 5 are anything but sure things.

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01-21-2013, 10:18 PM
  #250
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Strawman.

Nobody supports losing all the veterans. We support trading some veterans.

Actually, I specifically said, if by some miracle we did ship out all the veterans (I give that a 3% chance), the youth would only be without veteran leadership for ~15 games. With 30 million in cap space, we would obviously replace a few of these guys.
I never specified your arguments, and I'm sorry but rebuilding usually involved trading most of your established veterans and other assets for picks or young players, no? I would fully support trading veterans for some good return that helps the team now and in the future, but many posters are looking at trading upwards of 4-5 veterans for nothing but picks. That is obviously an issue.

I would NOT like to buy out Markov, which is ridiculous. I do not want to trade Cole, Pacioretty or Gionta unless the return is outstanding, because we need these great role-models to help our young players along.

Trading most of our veterans would be silly, but of course trading some mid-level veterans would be fine. I would have no qualms with doing what Ottawa did, which is a case where everyone said they should rebuild yet look where they are today. They traded mid-level veterans and some placeholders, they picked up some great Swedes, made some solid trades and filled some needs. That isn't what I call a rebuild, that is a nice retool, or a solid build, which is more of what I would prefer the Habs did. Do you understand my stance?

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