HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > Other Sports > General Sports
General Sports Other sports without their own forum, and general sports talk

2013 Australian Open

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-21-2013, 10:56 AM
  #351
MsWoof
Registered User
 
MsWoof's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,943
vCash: 500
Raonic has a foot injury and almost didn't play. He thinks he will be fine for DC.

MsWoof is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2013, 12:14 PM
  #352
kihei
Registered User
 
kihei's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,890
vCash: 4562
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deficient Mode View Post
I think Milos should consider experimenting with his racquet. Look for something with a bigger sweet spot. Unlike Ms. Woof, I don't think Blanco is his most pressing concern. If anything, he played too aggressively tonight.
From a practical stand point, you might have a case. But that aggression is what I liked about him last night. I wouldn't say he looked passionate out there, but I definitely thought he looked more animated, more emotionally involved. And it was at least an attempt to change his game against an opponent whom he has not had success against. He came into the net about 50% more than he had so far in his matches in this tournament, and he won a respectable 60% of those points. It's a big plus if he continues developing his net game. Yes, he tried to force the issue too often last night. So, yeah, youthful indiscretion may have gotten the best of him, but that aggressiveness, especially at net, is an ingredient that he needs more of. I wish I could give credit (apologies, I've forgotten who it was) to the poster who said that his coach has to stop coaching him like a Spaniard. Well, I think he looked less like a Spaniard out there last night.


Last edited by kihei: 01-21-2013 at 12:22 PM.
kihei is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2013, 12:58 PM
  #353
Deficient Mode
Put me on the field
 
Deficient Mode's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 38,886
vCash: 50
Blanco doesn't really coach him to play like a Spaniard. I think it's misleading to speak of Spain as having a national playing style when players like Almagro, Ferrer, Nadal, Verdasco, and Lopez all have styles greatly differing from one another.

Raonic doesn't usually play passively either - if that's what "Spanish" is supposed to mean. He often loses points because he goes for shots which he really is incapable of hitting accurately. Some of the problem stems from footwork.

I'm still skeptical about his volleying ability. 60% is nice, but I remember him flubbing a few he should have made. He isn't consistent from match to match at the net either.

Deficient Mode is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2013, 01:51 PM
  #354
kihei
Registered User
 
kihei's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,890
vCash: 4562
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deficient Mode View Post
Blanco doesn't really coach him to play like a Spaniard. I think it's misleading to speak of Spain as having a national playing style when players like Almagro, Ferrer, Nadal, Verdasco, and Lopez all have styles greatly differing from one another.

Raonic doesn't usually play passively either - if that's what "Spanish" is supposed to mean. He often loses points because he goes for shots which he really is incapable of hitting accurately. Some of the problem stems from footwork.

I'm still skeptical about his volleying ability. 60% is nice, but I remember him flubbing a few he should have made. He isn't consistent from match to match at the net either.
Don't know about the "greatly" with many of those guys. I think most of them have more similarities than differences.

Raonic does have a good coach, but one who may have the wrong tendencies for Milos. I think a change there is worth thinking about.

It might be more accurate to talk about the different way that, let's say, Europeans think about "aggression" as compared to how North Americans think about "aggression," which really have their roots in the old-timey clay versus grass debates. To me, European coaching treats aggression as primarily something you do from the back court and the North American approach thinks of aggression as something that you do at the net. That "national" or "continental" distinction has blurred, but it still has some potency. When I have conversations over here about Raonic, the point that most people bring up is "Why doesn't he volley more, why doesn't he take the net." I totally agree with this point of view. Yes, he isn't consistent from match to match, but there is no way that he is going to learn to be consistent if he doesn't practice the skill more. I loved what he did last night with this aspect of his game. His inconsistency that bothers me is from the baseline, where most of those unforced errors pile up. So even if he gets creamed for awhile, I would like to see him tone down his aggression from the back court and turn up his aggression to get to the net. He and/or his coach need to adopt a less "European" mind set.


Last edited by kihei: 01-21-2013 at 03:17 PM.
kihei is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2013, 03:56 PM
  #355
Deficient Mode
Put me on the field
 
Deficient Mode's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 38,886
vCash: 50
Within the context of the game of tennis today, those five players have very diverse games. Lopez fits in the category of the serve reliant player who is underwhelming from the back of the court but rushes the net quite a bit (he came to the net as much as Stepanek in their match last week). Almagro and Verdasco can be loosely considered offensive baseliners, but their games are still obviously quite different (right-handed vs. left-handed, one-handed backhand vs. two, Almagro having a far better serve). Ferrer is more of a grinder than either of those guys; he usually hits the ball deep consistently in relatively safe patterns looking to slowly dictate play with his forehand. He is a much better returner than either of them, arguably the best on tour. And Nadal - what can you say - he has the most unique style of play on tour. Maybe it's just another case of me looking at the minutiae more than you.

For me, that kind of thinking you call "national" is rather disseminated by broadcasters than in the academies where players actually develop. I know from too much experience that John McEnroe - bewilderingly esteemed by the average American as a tennis luminary - will talk about nothing else tactically. If someone is playing a superior player, he should abandon his game and rush the net recklessly. Roddick should have gone to the net more against Federer; Federer should have gone to the net more against Nadal; and so on. This kind of thinking is entrenched in the mind of the average American tennis fan and is spread by other commentators too.

The fact is though, the game has changed, and upsetting superior players is rarely done through just "coming to the net more." I'm not saying Raonic shouldn't come to the net; just that in this age of tennis he - and everyone else - needs to vary his approach shots and take smart chances. It may bother you that he piles up errors from the baseline instead of from the net, but he knows that he has to work the point to his advantage before he can come to the net, otherwise he's committing suicide. He certainly wouldn't continue to be 60% up there if he didn't. Look at the two minibreaks Fed took from Raonic in the second tiebreaker - both were easy passing shots.

Like I said earlier, this emphasis on net approaches is more of a popular ideology than an institutional one. The most influential American coaches - guys like Landsdorp and Bollettieri - produce more offensive baseliners (Nishikori, Haas, Agassi, Sharapova, Davenport, etc.) than any other kind of player.

For me personally, Haas is/was just about the model offensive tennis player. He had all the tools - big, deep, and consistent shots off both wings, a good serve, tremendous touch both with his drop shots and his volleys - and the tactics to use these tools to bring the point to an end either by forcing an error or hitting a winner.

Deficient Mode is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2013, 04:21 PM
  #356
Evilo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: France
Country: France
Posts: 26,814
vCash: 432
I remember Haas when I was at Bolletieri's. Soooo cocky. He never had the mindset of a champion.

Evilo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2013, 04:36 PM
  #357
MsWoof
Registered User
 
MsWoof's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,943
vCash: 500
Watching a bit of the Raonic/Fed match now. What I wish Raonic would work on most is his backhand. So many players with 2 handed backhands have them as their dominant groundie. With Milos, a lot of times he lifts the upper part of his body when he hits it instead of driving through.

I have to laugh at Pat McEnroe giving advice through the tv to Roger. Those who can, do, those who can't...

MsWoof is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2013, 04:46 PM
  #358
Deficient Mode
Put me on the field
 
Deficient Mode's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 38,886
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo View Post
I remember Haas when I was at Bolletieri's. Soooo cocky. He never had the mindset of a champion.
Champions typically are cocky though. Underneath their respective media images of varying degrees of humility, Federer, Djokovic, and Nadal all at least border on cockiness. Chronic injuries set Tommy back a lot more than his attitude. He may have been and still be cocky and a bit of an *******, but he has always worked hard on his game. Tomic on the other hand is a guy whose cockiness has held him back thus far. In the past at least he thought he wouldn't have to work hard to reach the top of the tour.

Deficient Mode is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2013, 05:26 PM
  #359
kihei
Registered User
 
kihei's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,890
vCash: 4562
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deficient Mode View Post
Within the context of the game of tennis today, those five players have very diverse games. Lopez fits in the category of the serve reliant player who is underwhelming from the back of the court but rushes the net quite a bit (he came to the net as much as Stepanek in their match last week). Almagro and Verdasco can be loosely considered offensive baseliners, but their games are still obviously quite different (right-handed vs. left-handed, one-handed backhand vs. two, Almagro having a far better serve). Ferrer is more of a grinder than either of those guys; he usually hits the ball deep consistently in relatively safe patterns looking to slowly dictate play with his forehand. He is a much better returner than either of them, arguably the best on tour. And Nadal - what can you say - he has the most unique style of play on tour. Maybe it's just another case of me looking at the minutiae more than you.

For me, that kind of thinking you call "national" is rather disseminated by broadcasters than in the academies where players actually develop. I know from too much experience that John McEnroe - bewilderingly esteemed by the average American as a tennis luminary - will talk about nothing else tactically. If someone is playing a superior player, he should abandon his game and rush the net recklessly. Roddick should have gone to the net more against Federer; Federer should have gone to the net more against Nadal; and so on. This kind of thinking is entrenched in the mind of the average American tennis fan and is spread by other commentators too.

The fact is though, the game has changed, and upsetting superior players is rarely done through just "coming to the net more." I'm not saying Raonic shouldn't come to the net; just that in this age of tennis he - and everyone else - needs to vary his approach shots and take smart chances. It may bother you that he piles up errors from the baseline instead of from the net, but he knows that he has to work the point to his advantage before he can come to the net, otherwise he's committing suicide. He certainly wouldn't continue to be 60% up there if he didn't. Look at the two minibreaks Fed took from Raonic in the second tiebreaker - both were easy passing shots.

Like I said earlier, this emphasis on net approaches is more of a popular ideology than an institutional one. The most influential American coaches - guys like Landsdorp and Bollettieri - produce more offensive baseliners (Nishikori, Haas, Agassi, Sharapova, Davenport, etc.) than any other kind of player.

For me personally, Haas is/was just about the model offensive tennis player. He had all the tools - big, deep, and consistent shots off both wings, a good serve, tremendous touch both with his drop shots and his volleys - and the tactics to use these tools to bring the point to an end either by forcing an error or hitting a winner.
I say, rather impressive disquisition on tennis ideology, old tar. After giving it diligent thought, my response is: Milos needs to stop playing like a bloody Spaniard.

kihei is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2013, 05:30 PM
  #360
kihei
Registered User
 
kihei's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,890
vCash: 4562
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deficient Mode View Post
Tomic on the other hand is a guy whose cockiness has held him back thus far. In the past at least he thought he wouldn't have to work hard to reach the top of the tour.
I don't know much about his upbringing, but from bits and pieces regarding his relationship with his father, he, like Agassi (though not in terms of talent, obviously), might have his reasons for seeing tennis as a slog. He might come to the game late, with greater maturity when he is more his own man.

kihei is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2013, 05:40 PM
  #361
Deficient Mode
Put me on the field
 
Deficient Mode's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 38,886
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by kihei View Post
I don't know much about his upbringing, but from bits and pieces regarding his relationship with his father, he, like Agassi (though not in terms of talent, obviously), might have his reasons for seeing tennis as a slog. He might come to the game late, with greater maturity when he is more his own man.
Yes, the similarity to Agassi is striking, and the father complex does seem to be the central piece. He should really ditch him for his own sake. I remember, when he got into that police "chase" last year for his illegal car, that he just drove home to his parents to have them deal with the authorities. Perhaps he needs to learn to deal with both tennis and life on his own.

Deficient Mode is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2013, 06:04 PM
  #362
kihei
Registered User
 
kihei's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,890
vCash: 4562
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deficient Mode View Post
Yes, the similarity to Agassi is striking, and the father complex does seem to be the central piece. He should really ditch him for his own sake. I remember, when he got into that police "chase" last year for his illegal car, that he just drove home to his parents to have them deal with the authorities. Perhaps he needs to learn to deal with both tennis and life on his own.
By the way, are you stateless? From Germany to Finland to...? And I still have all these unused Kohlschreiber and Nieminen barbs...

kihei is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2013, 06:11 PM
  #363
Deficient Mode
Put me on the field
 
Deficient Mode's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 38,886
vCash: 50
A flag is just a decoration, especially on an internet message board. My connection to Finland was and is only symbolic. Otherwise my citizenship has not changed since the last time we had this discussion.

Deficient Mode is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2013, 09:16 PM
  #364
Deficient Mode
Put me on the field
 
Deficient Mode's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 38,886
vCash: 50
Almagro up 6-4, 4-2. Ferrer has been yelling at himself a lot more and missing a lot more forehands than usual. Nico is having a great day returning by his standards. It would be such a shame if he somehow choked from this position, but I expect him to do just that. Very next service game he faces 15-40, but digs himself right out of it with four straight points. Such a pretty down the line backhand. *5-4 and serves it out at love with three unreturned serves. Impressive considering that he only served at 42% that set.


Last edited by Deficient Mode: 01-21-2013 at 09:30 PM.
Deficient Mode is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2013, 09:58 PM
  #365
kihei
Registered User
 
kihei's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,890
vCash: 4562
On serve midway through the third. Suprising result as Almagro is something like 0-12 lifetime against Ferrer. Suggests the story might not be over yet....Almagro has other ideas, a game away from the match now at 5-3....David gets the break. Not totally unexpected. This could still get very interesting.


Last edited by kihei: 01-21-2013 at 10:11 PM.
kihei is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2013, 09:58 PM
  #366
Deficient Mode
Put me on the field
 
Deficient Mode's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 38,886
vCash: 50
Wow. A real test of Almagro's resolve now. Breaks at love for *4-3. Some unconscionably bad errors for Ferrer this set - an overhead into the net and a couple of neutral backhands - and he even smashed his racquet in anger. Can't remember seeing him ever do that before. Nico has been a little tight this set, not playing as aggressively, but Ferrer has been the one uncharacteristically making all the errors. Ace at 40-30. One hold down, one to go.

Damn. So painful to watch anybody choke. I knew this bizarro world where Almagro played big points better than Ferrer and could win serving at 45% wouldn't last.


Last edited by Deficient Mode: 01-21-2013 at 10:12 PM.
Deficient Mode is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2013, 10:12 PM
  #367
kihei
Registered User
 
kihei's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,890
vCash: 4562
The pecking order thing is a *****. Will explain later, one way or the other.

kihei is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2013, 10:16 PM
  #368
Deficient Mode
Put me on the field
 
Deficient Mode's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 38,886
vCash: 50
Watch him hold here, get a huge lead in the tiebreak, and still lose the set. Either that or get broken at love.

Haha looks like it was the latter. Third set to Ferrer. I hate how hierarchical tennis is these days.

Deficient Mode is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2013, 10:24 PM
  #369
kihei
Registered User
 
kihei's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,890
vCash: 4562
Quote:
Originally Posted by kihei View Post
The pecking order thing is a *****. Will explain later, one way or the other.
Before it started, I liked David in this match for two reasons. The 12-0 lifetime record is obviously the big one. But then there is the pecking order thing, which is what contributes to the dominance. Singles tennis is an individual sport, but when it is played on teams a funny thing happers, whether it be secondary school or the Davis Cup. An established #1 in his/her prime almost never loses to #2, and #2 very seldom loses to #3. After that talent levels even out and things get murkier. So I'm not guaranteeing that David will go on to win the match, but I think he has a really, really good chance of doing so....early break to Nic, though, as David plays several loose points....and Nic gives it right back at 15....and some pretty down the line backhands contribute to a well-earned break by Nic...and despite starting the game with two aces, Nic gives it right back again. Opportunities, opportunities...I might want to stop hitting to Almagro's backhand which is killing Ferrer consistently...and yet another break thanks in no small part to that backhand, again...amazing after a six inch ball toss on first serve, Nic hits a winner on second serve...and, what do you know, David breaks back and for the third straight time in this set Nic has not been able to consolidate a break....four break points and counting as David shoots himself in the foot then serves himself out of trouble, make that five...and Ferrer finally holds and now the tiebreaker.


Last edited by kihei: 01-21-2013 at 11:18 PM.
kihei is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2013, 10:34 PM
  #370
Deficient Mode
Put me on the field
 
Deficient Mode's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 38,886
vCash: 50
Choking aside, Ferrer had a lot of success at the end of that set because Nico was hitting the ball too much down the center of the court. As a result, Ferrer was able to find better angles off his crosscourt forehand, and unlike the better movers on tour, Almagro was unable to get back into position when he was pushed that far out of court. That pattern happened like four or five times at the end of the set.

And of course Nico gets and immediately cedes the break in the fourth.

Deficient Mode is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2013, 10:38 PM
  #371
Deficient Mode
Put me on the field
 
Deficient Mode's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 38,886
vCash: 50
BTW on these changeovers when there's no commercial break you can hear the music from the Rolex commercials play in the stadium. I wonder if it affects the players in the stadium to be reminded of Roger constantly in the midst of a tense match.

Deficient Mode is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2013, 10:45 PM
  #372
Deficient Mode
Put me on the field
 
Deficient Mode's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 38,886
vCash: 50
Oh boy. *4-3. Same position. Two holds and it's done.

Deficient Mode is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2013, 10:46 PM
  #373
MsWoof
Registered User
 
MsWoof's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,943
vCash: 500
What the hell, ESPN? Almagro breaks to go up 4-3 and they switch to the bloody Williams sisters playing doubles?

MsWoof is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2013, 10:49 PM
  #374
Deficient Mode
Put me on the field
 
Deficient Mode's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 38,886
vCash: 50
Not even a badly played game from Almagro there, just better from Ferrer. 4-4.

Oh wow, this is hilarious. Breaks again. Beautiful backhand return at 40-30. 6/6 on break points is just shocking against Ferrer.


Last edited by Deficient Mode: 01-21-2013 at 10:55 PM.
Deficient Mode is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-21-2013, 11:03 PM
  #375
Novak Djokovic
MARC METHOT's #1 FAN
 
Novak Djokovic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,191
vCash: 966
I hope when I wake up tomorrow morning, Novak will have won the match tomorrow. *fingers crossed*

Almagro has been choking pretty hard the past two sets.

Novak Djokovic is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:18 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.