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P.K Subban Thread 4.0 - Still Unsigned Edition

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01-21-2013, 10:01 PM
  #826
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
No. Subban is worth more than $3 but no more than $4.5 in my opinion which does not count for anything. So that is irrelevant what you or I think he should get.

Subban/Meehan and Bergevin had an opportunity to negotiate the contract before the season began.

Meehan is a hardball agent. Everyone knows that. Regardless of what Subban thought was right or a good offer, I am sure that Meehan told PK to say no and to make management sweat a little bit.

Then the lockout happened.

Now Subban is missing playing time and the lines in the sand have been drawn.

Hell, look at the emotion coming from the pro-Subban posters just for laying fault on Subban. You think that the players are just sitting around not giving a **** about what is happening?

Subban is becoming increasingly more toxic for this team as each day passes.
You seriously don't make any sense...
You're saying Subban is worth more than 3M to you, so there's a very good chance he feels the same. But then you simply assume that PK got offered a better deal and was told by Meehan to just sit at home and be greedy. Not sure how you simply came to that conclusion. Meehan is a tough negotiator, not an idiot.
There was rumors on the Hot Stove from credible people like Friedman who said they're offering under 3M for 2years to PK. So, what if that's the actual offer from Bergevin. Would you say PK has every right to hold out because he feels under 500K more than Brandon freaking Prust is a joke of a deal?
Another rumor came out today that PK is actually asking for 6years for 24M.

Ever since the beginning, you've been all over PK. It's all about him being greedy and selfish. You made those assumptions solely based on hearsay and rumors.
When people said you should chill out and perhaps wait for more facts to come out before making these assumptions, you simply ignored every argument coming your way and stuck with your unfounded and baseless assumption.
I don't understand why someone you do that.
You can chose to believe whatever you want, but have some restraint. No problem with you believing that PK is the one being greedy but keeping some reservations because we just don't actually know for a fact.
We could have had a simple and interesting discussion, and try to see what would make more sense (PK holding for a huge deal vs MB going for a low balling offer), but you refuse to do so and stuck to overemotional and irrational posts.

There's just as many chance that PK is the one getting screwed by management than he's the one trying to screw the them up. I have brought up a bunch of reasons in previous posts as to why it actually makes more sense that it's management trying to low ball PK. There is no reason (not one actual reason has been brought up) as to why PK would suddenly become this selfish player and ask for the moon (by moon I'm talking about 6.5M+). But I always held a reservation because in the end, we just don't know.
You on the other hand...it's ''ship out PK because he has no team concept and he's hurting us''. It's been your position right from the first conversation on saturday, and despite having no stats, you haven't moved one bit or expressed any reservation about it.

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01-21-2013, 10:04 PM
  #827
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Thing is, you either sign a guy or don't. If you can't sign a guy for all sorts of reasons, you trade him. And you do it while the value is pretty high. I don't agree with that bridge contracts Bergevin "seems" to have a fixation on. So I would not agree with a trade. But if HE believes that,s how it has to go, well that's how it has to go. But if the players will never agree to it, you don't make a player sit out the way it could happen. So you trade him. But you had to do it when it was clearly in the summer that it would not happen. I guess that both believes the other party will change their minds, seems that Bergevin won't. So PK, in the end, will actually have to accept whatever offer Bergevin gives him. By doing so, unless we major overpay him, you can bet what you want that PK will do his best to get the **** out of here as soon as he's UFA. And if Bergevin can't play his cards properly, we might lose Subban for nothing. All this for a bridge contract? I guess I've mentioned all the worst that could happen....but it could. Can we take the chance of it happening? Not only is the situation bad for the relation that PK has with his teamates but now it will be bad between PK and the team.

All this, again, because of a bridge contract. All this because we have to give a small contract for players that finish their ELC because we're not so sure of them. Instead of having a vision and knowing that this player will be solid for us, so instead of waiting 1 or 2 years and THEN having to pay an incredibly high amount of money, we could actually save some right now by signing a long term with a better cap hit. A salary that "could" also be tradeable 'cause the cap hit might not be as dramatic as it could be in 2 years.
I don't think it's close to the point where we have to ponder MB trading PK, but this part of your post is exactly how I feel. The money will only get worse from here from a habs perspective. PK wants a deal to protect himself. The only concern with a long term contract at this point is an injury and it's a concern for every player that signs a contract. PK is protecting himself from injuries ect by locking up some security and MB's position is likely to be detrimental to the team if PK even just maintains his previous performances.

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Old
01-21-2013, 10:08 PM
  #828
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Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
And if PK is demanding a no-trade/no-movement clause ?

There is no smoke without fire. PK has some off-ice issues as well as on-ice discipline issues with his constant yapping. Wonder why most of the opponents hate his guts ?

A bridge contract at a fair value like 4 million per year for one or two seasons is ideal.
Actually yes, some times there is smoke without fire. Do I need to remind you of the darkest day in habs history??
We all know that things get magnified and overblown in Mtl. Can't believe I actually have to tell this to any Habs fan.

As for opponents hating his guts, ya, he yaps. But Lapierre yapped even more yet you never heard opponents make those big declarations about him. You know why? Because he's a nothing more than a grinder.
PK on the other hand, he can yap it out, but he's actually very good. So it's doubly frustrating. Guys can chase him, but they won't catch him. It's actually a quality, it works to our advantage. It's not a flaw.

A bridge contract isn't ideal, especially not for a year. It's actually the worse outcome. In a year he'll get arbitration. You think with another good year, he'll get 4-4.5M off arbitration?? He would cost us even more.

If the rumors of today are true, PK would accept that 4M cap hit over 6years. Not signing him to this deal would be retarded. And I really mean mentally challenge.

Who cares about the NTC, so many players have them. Never prevented teams from trading those guys.

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Old
01-21-2013, 10:11 PM
  #829
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Actually yes, some times there is smoke without fire. Do I need to remind you of the darkest day in habs history??
We all know that things get magnified and overblown in Mtl. Can't believe I actually have to tell this to any Habs fan.

As for opponents hating his guts, ya, he yaps. But Lapierre yapped even more yet you never heard opponents make those big declarations about him. You know why? Because he's a nothing more than a grinder.
PK on the other hand, he can yap it out, but he's actually very good. So it's doubly frustrating. Guys can chase him, but they won't catch him. It's actually a quality, it works to our advantage. It's not a flaw.

A bridge contract isn't ideal, especially not for a year. It's actually the worse outcome. In a year he'll get arbitration. You think with another good year, he'll get 4-4.5M off arbitration?? He would cost us even more.

If the rumors of today are true, PK would accept that 4M cap hit over 6years. Not signing him to this deal would be retarded. And I really mean mentally challenge.

Who cares about the NTC, so many players have them. Never prevented teams from trading those guys.
If PK is actually asking for 4 over 6, Bergevin is a flipping idiot. I hope this isn't true.

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01-21-2013, 10:12 PM
  #830
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Actually yes, some times there is smoke without fire. Do I need to remind you of the darkest day in habs history??
We all know that things get magnified and overblown in Mtl. Can't believe I actually have to tell this to any Habs fan.

As for opponents hating his guts, ya, he yaps. But Lapierre yapped even more yet you never heard opponents make those big declarations about him. You know why? Because he's a nothing more than a grinder.
PK on the other hand, he can yap it out, but he's actually very good. So it's doubly frustrating. Guys can chase him, but they won't catch him. It's actually a quality, it works to our advantage. It's not a flaw.

A bridge contract isn't ideal, especially not for a year. It's actually the worse outcome. In a year he'll get arbitration. You think with another good year, he'll get 4-4.5M off arbitration?? He would cost us even more.

If the rumors of today are true, PK would accept that 4M cap hit over 6years. Not signing him to this deal would be retarded. And I really mean mentally challenge.

Who cares about the NTC, so many players have them. Never prevented teams from trading those guys.

There's no way this can be true imo. This would be a deal breaker for any GM. I don't think PK would accept that, but if he would and MB refuses, omg, I can't support it, I just can't.

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01-21-2013, 10:13 PM
  #831
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The reason us pro-Subban posters are emotional is that we don't want to see a Chicago-style rebuild that drags for years and years. We don't want to lose Subban like we lost McDonagh and Chelios.
Those were terrible trades, if we trade Subban and Bergevin listens to all offers, I expect we will win the trade handily.

17,000 fans chanting "we want PK", I can think of a dozen owners who could go for that, even if some of their fans and GM's question some of his antics.

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Old
01-21-2013, 10:18 PM
  #832
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Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
Those were terrible trades, if we trade Subban and Bergevin listens to all offers, I expect we will win the trade handily.

17,000 fans chanting "we want PK", I can think of a dozen owners who could go for that, even if some of their fans and GM's question some of his antics.
Of course the Habs would win the trade, they would be dealing from a position of strength.

btw- this was sarcasm for those without an upgraded sarcasm detector.

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Old
01-21-2013, 10:19 PM
  #833
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Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
Those were terrible trades, if we trade Subban and Bergevin listens to all offers, I expect we will win the trade handily.

17,000 fans chanting "we want PK", I can think of a dozen owners who could go for that, even if some of their fans and GM's question some of his antics.
There is no reason to put ourselves in a position of making lateral moves like trading Subban. It's foolish, he's part of the answer, not part of the problem.

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Old
01-21-2013, 10:20 PM
  #834
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Because Bergevin is reducing his trade value.
How so? You make no sense at all. Why don't you just fly into hysterics already and claim we will get a 5th rounder for him because you are already on the way there.

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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Go through this forum's archives and look up the Gomez trade thread. People knew it would suck.

You know what, let me find the threads for you:

Boston Bruins Board from June 2009:
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=656992
Nearly all the Bruins fans are celebrating how bad the Habs are going to be, no hindsight required

Edmonton Oilers board from June 2009:
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=656995
Mostly recognizing it as a good trade for NYR

Montreal fans on a different hockey board criticizing the trade in June 2009:
http://*****************/threads/125...mped-from-June)

And finally, from this very board:
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=656981

Nearly everybody knew it was a bade trade at the time except your beloved professionals.
Amusing reading the posts of certain posters who defended it and still post here. Really opens ones eyes.

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01-21-2013, 10:20 PM
  #835
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
There's no way this can be true imo. This would be a deal breaker for any GM. I don't think PK would accept that, but if he would and MB refuses, omg, I can't support it, I just can't.
There is no way Bergevin is not signing PK a 4 million for 6 years. This report is pure BS.

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Old
01-21-2013, 10:30 PM
  #836
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
How so? You make no sense at all. Why don't you just fly into hysterics already and claim we will get a 5th rounder for him because you are already on the way there.



Amusing reading the posts of certain posters who defended it and still post here. Really opens ones eyes.
I read about 20 pages of the thread, that was painful.

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Old
01-21-2013, 10:37 PM
  #837
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Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan View Post
There is no way Bergevin is not signing PK a 4 million for 6 years. This report is pure BS.
BS reports haven't stopped people from forming an opinion on this very same issue.
Makes absoutely no sense for PK to be holding out for Doughty type of money and making it an non-negotiable deal. Yet, some people ate that right up. He's being greedy, selfish, bad for the team, blablabla...

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Old
01-21-2013, 10:40 PM
  #838
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Originally Posted by Habnot View Post
I read about 20 pages of the thread, that was painful.
Look at this beauty from our very own Kriss E. The last sentence is the icing on the cake.

Quote:
I'm actually content with this trade. Not my first pick, and I'll be disappointed if that's the only change, but I'm not pissed about it like most of this board. To hear some of you it seems we just made the worst deal in the history of trades which is completely ridiculous.

I think this is the beginning of a series of moves, and like I've mentioned many times since our elimination to the Bruins, I'm confident that Gainey will put forth a team better than the one of last year (before our collapse).

I do hope we bring in another center because I'm not sure Gomez/Plek tandem is really the way to go, but if we add top wingers I'll be able to live with it.

People speak of McDonagh as if he's the next messiah (because we have one every year here).

I still have faith, and I'll be the one telling you guys ''I told you so'' during next season. You can frame this post.

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Old
01-21-2013, 10:43 PM
  #839
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Look at this beauty from our very own Kriss E. The last sentence is the icing on the cake.
That was a funny one. Everybody makes mistakes.

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Old
01-21-2013, 10:45 PM
  #840
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It's ok Kriss,

I'm sure more of us would be embarrassed if our posting history went back that far.

To be honest I don't remember what my views were at the time, and I wasn't posting on the board then so no luck.

However, I do remember the rumour of Subban, Plekanec, Gorges, Higgins and three 1st rounders for Lecavalier, which the Tampa Bay apparently turned that down. I remember arguing on another board that the Habs should only consider that trade if the Lightning threw in Stamkos :-)

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01-21-2013, 10:46 PM
  #841
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Originally Posted by Habnot View Post
Of course the Habs would win the trade, they would be dealing from a position of strength.

btw- this was sarcasm for those without an upgraded sarcasm detector.
If teams are willing to overpay for Subban, we should win the trade - *no sarcasm*.

I'd prefer to sign and keep him but Bergevin is doing what he's doing.

It isn't the end of the world or even a bad thing in my books if we trade him. Life will go on.

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01-21-2013, 10:49 PM
  #842
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Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
If teams are willing to overpay for Subban, we should win the trade - *no sarcasm*.

I'd prefer to sign and keep him but Bergevin is doing what he's doing.

It isn't the end of the world or even a bad thing in my books if we trade him. Life will go on.
Sure, it wouldn't be that bad, if we get proper return. But if we're the one giving away the best player, then ya it'll likely be bad.

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01-21-2013, 10:49 PM
  #843
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Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
If teams are willing to overpay for Subban, we should win the trade - *no sarcasm*.

I'd prefer to sign and keep him but Bergevin is doing what he's doing.

It isn't the end of the world or even a bad thing in my books if we trade him. Life will go on.
Not sure how you can extract greater value when you have basically told the rest of the league that you don't think PK is a franchise type player when your team sucks.

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01-21-2013, 10:50 PM
  #844
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It isn't the end of the world or even a bad thing in my books if we trade him. Life will go on.
We would absolutely need to get a minute monster defenseman back in that trade though.

Trades are fine, but we would need to fill a giant void first and foremost. And even then, the odds that you get a defender like Subban back in the trade are quite small. I don't really see the point of trading him to be honest.

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Old
01-21-2013, 10:54 PM
  #845
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Pretty annoying that we wait this long for a season and Bergevin can't find a way to give the fans one of the most important, electrifying and popular players on the team.
Price and Subban should have been worked on first. How Patches got a deal ahead of Subban is beyond me. I think Bergevin underestimated this negotiation.

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01-21-2013, 11:10 PM
  #846
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
I don't think it's close to the point where we have to ponder MB trading PK, but this part of your post is exactly how I feel. The money will only get worse from here from a habs perspective. PK wants a deal to protect himself. The only concern with a long term contract at this point is an injury and it's a concern for every player that signs a contract. PK is protecting himself from injuries ect by locking up some security and MB's position is likely to be detrimental to the team if PK even just maintains his previous performances.
I'm not in a panic over Subban's absence because the Habs finished 15th in the East with him in the lineup. My thinking is rapidly evolving to the point that I'd rather have some other team negotiate Subban's RFA and UFA contracts. If other GMs covet him badly, let them fully compensate the Habs. Let them bid against each other. Yes, the Habs would miss him but they'd have a wealth of their own and other teams' draft picks and prospects to build around and they'd still have Price, Pacioretty, and Galchenyuk.

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Old
01-21-2013, 11:11 PM
  #847
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
I'm not in a panic over Subban's absence because the Habs finished 15th in the East with him in the lineup. There are other routes to success. My thinking is rapidly evolving to the point that I'd rather have some other team negotiate Subban's RFA and UFA contracts. Bergevin shouldn't cave in. If other GMs covet him badly, let them fully compensate the Habs. Let them bid against each other. Yes, the Habs would miss him but they'd have a wealth of their own and other teams' draft picks and prospects.
I'm surprised to see you endorse tanking the season.

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01-21-2013, 11:13 PM
  #848
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Personally if the deal is close to 4 million per (however long) I say sign it and get the **** on with the season. If he is asking for over 5 on a long term contract get some offers for him and know your options.

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01-21-2013, 11:14 PM
  #849
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
We would absolutely need to get a minute monster defenseman back in that trade though.

Trades are fine, but we would need to fill a giant void first and foremost. And even then, the odds that you get a defender like Subban back in the trade are quite small. I don't really see the point of trading him to be honest.
Why? One thing I've noticed is almost always if a team has a deficiency somewhere and decent talent elsewhere, the deficiency gets filled surprisingly quick. It's more about a bit of patience and getting the right players.

I expect we'll get a good young defenseman in the trade but he probably won't be ready to play big minutes. What's wrong with running the contracts out on the players we do have?

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01-21-2013, 11:17 PM
  #850
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I'm surprised to see you endorse tanking the season.
I think even those of us who don't believe in tanking realize how bad this team is right now.

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