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Relocation options post-expansion?

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Old
01-21-2013, 03:37 AM
  #101
Dirty Kari
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Moving Carolina, Florida, and Tampa to the West is one of the worst alignment proposals I have ever seen.

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01-21-2013, 04:43 AM
  #102
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If 4 conferences alignment and 32 teams happens, I would imagine less worry about breaking up rivalries and being the only “xxxx” team in conferences.

I would do a schedule such as:

4 games each team in conf. = 28
2 games each team other conferences = 48
6 games rotated annually amongst other conferences (2 games for each conf.) = 6

Total = 82

Playoffs

Top 4 teams each “conference”

Conference semis
Conference finals

Bracket remaining 4 teams based on regular season records

Stanley Cup semis
Stanley Cup finals

Retire/Re-assign Campbell and Wales trophies

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01-21-2013, 05:27 AM
  #103
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Yes, logically. But strangely it wasn't done. How can they manage to do later what they couldn't do then?
There isn't a second market in the East likely to be a target in the next round of expansion. IMO the NHL wouldn't add two Canadian teams at the same time so soon after losing the Atlanta market. It would look like a retreat. Since there are no appealing American options for expansion in the Eastern time zone, either Detroit or Columbus will have to move over.

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01-21-2013, 10:47 AM
  #104
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I think you're overestimating the amount of attention people pay towards where teams are moved. If, say, the Yotes deal falls through and the Nordiques arise, we're still talking about a league with 22 American teams vs 24 from a few years back. And, to be honest, if anything there are more people feeling all sorts of nostalgia at the prospect of the Jets and Nordiques coming back that they wouldn't care about losing a few markets that they didn't really care about, so most hockey fans would probably be cool with trading the Yotes and Thrashers for the Nordiques and Jets.

And the option of expansion also brings up the possibility of expanding to new American markets, like Seattle and Houston, so it's a moot point. Despite how many GTAers and Hamiltonians may want their markets to be at the forefront of the discussion, and while they may have valid points about the viability of their markets, in all likelihood the NHL's probably looking at the QC and that's it for Canada for a while. Even if the Yotes stay put, that'll still likely mean expansion to Seattle and Quebec City in a few years.

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01-21-2013, 11:31 AM
  #105
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There isn't a second market in the East likely to be a target in the next round of expansion. IMO the NHL wouldn't add two Canadian teams at the same time so soon after losing the Atlanta market. It would look like a retreat. Since there are no appealing American options for expansion in the Eastern time zone, either Detroit or Columbus will have to move over.
Again, I absolutely agree. But if it seems that obvious that there is no other eastern expansion site likely to happen, then WHY wasn't the plan to put Columbus (or whichever team) in the East included with that proposed realignment from last year??

People keep saying the 4-Division realignment plan was because expansion is on the horizon, but why put only 14 teams in the East? If it were a case in which they couldn't force themselves to decide which team goes in the East, then what's going to change that? Assuming there is no other eastern expansion location, the League does have to make that decision! And once that's done, then you have another team to add into the mix of how the eastern teams could be realigned.

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01-21-2013, 03:03 PM
  #106
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Depending on if Jamison closes the Phoenix deal by the 31st sets up interesting expansion/relocation scenarios...

Phoenix stays: Seattle, Toronto area, Quebec fight for 2 expansion teams

Phoenix relocates after this season: Quebec/Seattle fight for relocated team in temp arena with loser and Toronto getting two expansion teams.


Do I have it correct?

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Old
01-21-2013, 03:07 PM
  #107
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Been trying to educate myself on the pros and cons. Wouldn't say one side "clearly" out weighs the other, especially since the actual proposal won't be revelaed until Feb. 6 . I'm still undecided and trying to develop an informed opinion.

Curious...Are there any posters out there from other cities that have a downtown casino that could share the effects both good and bad?




I don't follow. Why would this help with the prospects for a Hamilton NHL franchise?


***edit*** now I know why



http://www.thespec.com/news/local/ar...ercanti-casino

And for those that were not following the privatization of the management of HECFI ( Hamilton Entertainment and Convention Facilities Inc.) a city organization that ran 3 city owned facilities ( Copps Coliseum, Hamilton Place (theatre) and the Hamilton Convention centre, P.J. Mercanti, who is behind the casino/entertainment proposal, has won the rights to manage the Convention Centre. (Global Spectrum will now run Copps Coliseum)
My city (Winnipeg) does not have one. I find everytime I've been to Regina, the downtown casino kills all other night businesses downtown. It's like a blackhole, and you have to escape the casino blackhole to find other forms of nightlife.

After my experience in Regina, I would hate a downtown casino in Winnipeg.

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Old
01-21-2013, 04:57 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by cutchemist42 View Post
My city (Winnipeg) does not have one. I find everytime I've been to Regina, the downtown casino kills all other night businesses downtown. It's like a blackhole, and you have to escape the casino blackhole to find other forms of nightlife.

After my experience in Regina, I would hate a downtown casino in Winnipeg.
We don't really have a nightlife in hamilton. There's Augusta Street with all the pubs and Hess street with some clubs/bars, but that's about it. There's not too much it'll be detracting from.

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01-21-2013, 06:52 PM
  #109
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We don't really have a nightlife in hamilton. There's Augusta Street with all the pubs and Hess street with some clubs/bars, but that's about it. There's not too much it'll be detracting from.
Gotcha, I just would not believe any politician that tries to claim multiplier effects for surronding downtown businesses. It's casino or nothing else from what I've seen firsthand.

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01-21-2013, 07:33 PM
  #110
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My perfect expansion teams and post-expansion format is simple, expand up to 36 teams. 4 conferences, 9 teams each conference. 20 teams playoff format. Pipe dream of mine below:

Expansion teams: Seattle, Portland, Houston, Kansas City and Quebec City, Toronto 2,

Conference games:4x8=32 games
Non-conference games 2x27=54 games
Total games: 86 games

Expansion teams in bold.

Conference A: Vancouver, LA, Anahiem, SJ, Phoenix, Calgary, Edmonton, Seattle, Portland.

Conference B: Colorado, Dallas, Nashville, St. Louis, Chicago, Minnesota, Winnipeg, Houston, Kansas City

Conference C: Toronto, Montreal, Boston, Ottawa, Buffalo, Columbus, Detroit, Quebec City, Toronto 2

Conference D: Tampa, Florida, Carolina, NYI, NJ, NYR, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Washington

My reasoning for choosing expansion teams is following, to get more western cities as much as possible and get extra Canadian teams for extra revenues. Seattle and Portland is logical choice because they have a strong junior market and could translate into the successful NHL franchise and saves Vancouver from logging highest travel mileage in the league to a reasonable level. With those geographic advantages in the west helps cut down their travel.

It leaves Colorado an odd man out to the Conference B and their closest city is Kansas so it makes sense for KC to have its own team and Colorado saves their travel to the pacific every time and makes no difference if Colorado travel to Winnipeg or Houston as it is roughly equal travel if they stayed in Conference A as in Conference B. Dallas gets its natural rivalry with Houston and leaves pacific division and they'd be happy to play in Conference B. Conference B is all CTZ except for Colorado and it should not be a huge difference.

For Conference C, Detroit and Columbus join the conference where they can play their conference games in the east time zone rather than CTZ for their road games. It allows Montreal retain their heated rivalry with Boston and Buffalo will be happy to keep Boston as their rivals and Detroit will rekindle their Original six rivalry and Chicago will sorely miss Detroit as their rivals. A second Toronto team is needed because of the extra revenue for the league and makes for an interesting time and Quebec City deserves to have their team back after the success story that Winnipeg experienced last season. Columbus potentially get some extra away fans in Detroit and 5 Canadian teams when they visits Columbus with their extra revenue needed during the regular season.

Conference D, all teams is happy that their rivalry will be kept intact and Washington will also be happy to play extra games against their closest rivals in Interstate highway 95 corridor. Carolina, Florida and Tampa will be happy with this conference set-up.

I believe that Chicago will be only team that oppose this realignment with expansion team just because they will lose their natural rivalry with Detroit.

Playoffs format: top 5 in each conference makes the playoffs for extra revenue for bottom teams a shot for the extra playoff gate revenue for struggling revenue teams however, this 4 vs 5 schedule must be toughest possible so that the fresh teams can shake off their rust quickly and short layoff possible. For regular season finale, all teams playing on Thursday night. First game of 4 v 5 will be held two days after their final games and it must be back-to-back games that include travel. 4th place team host the first game while the 5th place will host game 2 and if necessary, 4th place host game 3. Rest day is between game 2 and 3.

Regular season finale: Thursday

Game 1, Saturday
Game 2, Sunday
Game 3, Tuesday
Game 1 of next round, Wednesday.

Or,
Game 1, Saturday
Game 2, Sunday
Game 1 of next round, Tuesday.

This will allow top teams enough time to rest and start their playoff campaign without losing much rust and huge advantage for the top team facing the winner of the 4/5 series with punishing 3 games in 4 nights or 4 playoff games in 5 nights with this set-up. I use the Saturday and Sunday schedule because some teams has their arena booked due to basketball and they could play hockey instead in the afternoon, giving them scheduling flexibility. This guarantees the 5th place team get one home gate revenue while 4th place team gets 2 games.

This is a conference playoff set-up, 1 v 4/5 and 2 v 3.


Last edited by coolboarder: 01-21-2013 at 07:38 PM.
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01-21-2013, 08:57 PM
  #111
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I don't see it, Phoenix moving is a given but I think Florida will stabilize as a market now that they are icing a young skilled team. Same for Columbus.

I see a 32 team league with Phoenix moving to either Quebec or Seattle.
Then Qubec/Seattle (whoever doesn't get the coyotes) an expansion team
and then Houston/Hartford/GTA get an expansion team and we settle comfortably with even 16 team conferences in a 32 team league.
Florida is the oldest team in the NHL.

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01-21-2013, 09:58 PM
  #112
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My perfect expansion teams and post-expansion format is simple, expand up to 36 teams. 4 conferences, 9 teams each conference. 20 teams playoff format. Pipe dream of mine below:

Expansion teams: Seattle, Portland, Houston, Kansas City and Quebec City, Toronto 2,

Conference games:4x8=32 games
Non-conference games 2x27=54 games
Total games: 86 games
Too high a % of games outside the Conference. 57/86 = 66%

Even if you did it as 2 Divisions per Conference, that still means 42% of games outside the Conference. Now 42% wouldn't be too bad if you're talking inter-Conference Playoffs after the 2nd Round.

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01-22-2013, 12:42 AM
  #113
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Gotcha, I just would not believe any politician that tries to claim multiplier effects for surronding downtown businesses. It's casino or nothing else from what I've seen firsthand.
So travellers don't need to eat, or do anything when they go to a casino? They just stay inside?

What about Niagara Falls? It has a great night life and two casinos.

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01-22-2013, 08:53 AM
  #114
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So travellers don't need to eat, or do anything when they go to a casino? They just stay inside?

What about Niagara Falls? It has a great night life and two casinos.
As someone who has been to Niagara, I felt it was different because the city is built up around those concepts. I don't know what you want me to say? I've been to Regina the past 4 years for the CFL Labour Day game, stayed at the Ramada downtown. We had to cab out of downtown to find non-casino nightlife. The gamblers amongst my friends didn't mind, but to an outsider looking in, it was a black hole.

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01-22-2013, 09:20 AM
  #115
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We don't really have a nightlife in hamilton. There's Augusta Street with all the pubs and Hess street with some clubs/bars, but that's about it. There's not too much it'll be detracting from.
Disagree.

There are the 3 main HECFI venues (Hamilton Place, Copps Coliseum, the Convention Centre) , numerous other theatres ( Aquarius, Staircase, Hamilton Conservatory For The Arts, Hamilton theatre Inc., Citadel, Artword Artbar, etc.), countless art studios, monthly art crawls, live music clubs (Absinthe, This Ain't Hollywood, The Casbah), about 200 restaurants, coffee shops, Bulldogs hockey, the strip along King William St., the waterfront has skating (ice in the winter, roller in warm months), restaurants. That's just off the top of my head.

None of these are Hess Village nor Augusta Street.

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Originally Posted by cutchemist42 View Post
As someone who has been to Niagara, I felt it was different because the city is built up around those concepts.
Niagara Falls is different because it is a tourist destination. Hamilton is not, nor will it be with a casino. The province will be putting casinos everywhere so Hamilton's would be dependent on locals who's money will be sucked out the local economy by the black hole where it otherwise would have been spent at local businesses.


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01-22-2013, 09:50 AM
  #116
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The Regina nightlife IS downtown.

O'Hanlons pub/club downtown
Beer Brothers pub downtown
Club scene on Dewdney
Nice restaurant scene on broad and vic
Nice restaurant scene on Albert
13th avenue pubs/restaurants
Globe Theater downtown

80% of Regina nightlife is downtown.

The casino its a hole, but it just attracts seniors and the poor. The nightlife crowd completely ignores it.

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01-22-2013, 11:22 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by jigglysquishy View Post
The Regina nightlife IS downtown.

O'Hanlons pub/club downtown
Beer Brothers pub downtown
Club scene on Dewdney
Nice restaurant scene on broad and vic
Nice restaurant scene on Albert
13th avenue pubs/restaurants
Globe Theater downtown

80% of Regina nightlife is downtown.

The casino its a hole, but it just attracts seniors and the poor. The nightlife crowd completely ignores it.
O'Hanlon's is a bar we've avoided after giving it 3 attempts over 4 years.

Dewdney street is good, I hated that they turned The Drink into some ultralounge. I also think it was not incredibly walkable from downtown, to be considered downtown nightlife (have to go around the railyard and casino)

No one ever suggest 13th, too far out of the way from downtown. Same with Albert St.


I fully acknowledge Winnipeg's downtown is bad, but I had not seen anything as unlively as Regina's. As an outsider, who did the Labour Day trip for 4 years, to have my opinion like that means the city is fialing in its urban planning. I'm trying to be as objective as possible.....We were staying at the Ramada Inn at the corner of Broad and Vic as well.

Also, why the hell is pizza so expensive there?!

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01-22-2013, 11:24 AM
  #118
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The only expansion & relocation options I see right now for the NHL. are Hamilton , Quebec City , Seattle , Houston & Hartford & the reason I think Kansas City is not going to get an NHL. team is because the NBA. is going to expand in 2 years & Kansas City is right at the top of that list when comes to getting an NBA. team .

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01-22-2013, 11:27 AM
  #119
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Uh..... what? The NBA's definitely not expanding. In fact, they're probably the least likely to expand of any of the major leagues.

It's not like the situation with the NHL, when they can reliably have over a half dozen teams in Canada thereby keeping a number of American markets still open, after all.

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01-22-2013, 11:36 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by cutchemist42 View Post
O'Hanlon's is a bar we've avoided after giving it 3 attempts over 4 years.

Dewdney street is good, I hated that they turned The Drink into some ultralounge. I also think it was not incredibly walkable from downtown, to be considered downtown nightlife (have to go around the railyard and casino)

No one ever suggest 13th, too far out of the way from downtown. Same with Albert St.


I fully acknowledge Winnipeg's downtown is bad, but I had not seen anything as unlively as Regina's. As an outsider, who did the Labour Day trip for 4 years, to have my opinion like that means the city is failing in its urban planning. I'm trying to be as objective as possible.....We were staying at the Ramada Inn at the corner of Broad and Vic as well.

Also, why the hell is pizza so expensive there?!
From Broad and Vic you're a fifteen minute walk from Dewdney and a fifteen minute walk from 13th. You're a five minute walk from Beer Brothers, across the street from restaurants on Broad and Vic. Hell, there are probably fifteen different establishments that serve alcohol within one block of the Ramada.

Winnipeg's downtown isn't even that bad. I've been to two Jets games and had a blast in the Exchange District.

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01-22-2013, 11:50 AM
  #121
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Uh..... what? The NBA's definitely not expanding. In fact, they're probably the least likely to expand of any of the major leagues.
I'm going to disagree with that. I think the NBA certainly might expand; however, I say that with a condition... Could this be the time when the NHL expands before the NBA does? And yes, I think it could be. But it's then when the NBA will expand. If the NHL does it, the NBA will likely follow suit.

Now another possibility... Hypothetically, what happens if Hansen and the Seattle group don't get the Kings? The fight to keep the NBA in Sacramento succeeds, at least for the time being... Is there another likely NBA relocation option out there right now? And if not, does the NBA just sit back and let Seattle waiting to get an NBA team again? Without a relocation option, Seattle definitely becomes an expansion option for the NBA. It's in that case though that I definitely hope the NHL makes the first move.

Now let me bring this back to Kansas City, which is what you were responding to...
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Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
The only expansion & relocation options I see right now for the NHL. are Hamilton , Quebec City , Seattle , Houston & Hartford & the reason I think Kansas City is not going to get an NHL. team is because the NBA. is going to expand in 2 years & Kansas City is right at the top of that list when comes to getting an NBA. team .
I think that KC definitely could be an option for the NHL first (unless the NBA takes the expansion route with Seattle, and KC might become a 2nd location). The problem is though, Does the NHL want KC, and is there a potential owner out there somewhere who would want to bring the NHL to KC? I think KC is a risky expansion option for the NHL (perhaps for the NBA too, but I don't know). KC, IMO, seems more like a possible relocation option if needed. A team that'll cost less to bring there, and which could hit the ice being essentially immediately competitive. Given that advantage, I think it reduces substantially that risk which KC presents.


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01-22-2013, 11:57 AM
  #122
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From Broad and Vic you're a fifteen minute walk from Dewdney and a fifteen minute walk from 13th. You're a five minute walk from Beer Brothers, across the street from restaurants on Broad and Vic. Hell, there are probably fifteen different establishments that serve alcohol within one block of the Ramada.

Winnipeg's downtown isn't even that bad. I've been to two Jets games and had a blast in the Exchange District.
I've been there for 4 years, and we just find most of the drinking places in the Ramada's area just weren't what we expected for downtown drinking establishments. No place ever feels full or a place that you have to be. Like the only bar that I've ever liked was The Drink.

It just seemed like everything except Dewdney St was dead except for when I went into the casino with my friends. When a tourist gets that impression, that's an image problem that needs fixing.

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01-22-2013, 02:13 PM
  #123
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Too high a % of games outside the Conference. 57/86 = 66%

Even if you did it as 2 Divisions per Conference, that still means 42% of games outside the Conference. Now 42% wouldn't be too bad if you're talking inter-Conference Playoffs after the 2nd Round.
If we split down the divisional games to a percent and I consider that the new conference is equal to a current divisional set-up, even the new conference has no divisional set-up at all. I would prefer that the conference has no divisions at all because the playoff is based on the conference and after 3rd round, it will be the inter-conference playoffs if I count the 4/5 as the first round with top 3 teams getting a 5 days off for first round with the bye. The potential overall conference games, including 14 games of playoffs would increase to 46% (46/100) of the conference games while if a conference team going all the way to the Stanley Cup Final, their non-conference percent will end up to 59% of their season (68/114). If the 4/5 team made all the way to the cup finals, their overall games could potentially go up to 117 games compared to top 3, their will count up to 114 games, potentially if we count all series to the maximum.

With the current format, the divisional game is 24/82=29%. With the all games, that includes non-divisional conference teams and inter-conference games would be 58/82=71 %. This is still high for a non-divisional games. And I don't even like conference playoffs with divisions set-up because their divisional games and conference games is unbalanced when counting all up to their playoff seeding. Even with the inter-conference games schedule is unbalanced because it is not 2 games per team. We are looking for balanced schedule even the inter-conference play percent is higher than the conference games with the new format.

Now, don't forget that the playoffs will be all about the conference for the first half of the whole playoffs with the new format. I would like to see every teams playing in our building once a year, rather than once every two years. The purpose of this is to give the fans a chance to see a Crosby every year in their own building when it expands to 32 to 36 teams potentially. The owners' goal is to sell the tickets regardless of the higher percent of non-conference games.

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01-22-2013, 02:40 PM
  #124
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If we split down the divisional games to a percent and I consider that the new conference is equal to a current divisional set-up, even the new conference has no divisional set-up at all. I would prefer that the conference has no divisions at all because the playoff is based on the conference and after 3rd round, it will be the inter-conference playoffs if I count the 4/5 as the first round with top 3 teams getting a 5 days off for first round with the bye. The potential overall conference games, including 14 games of playoffs would increase to 46% (46/100) of the conference games while if a conference team going all the way to the Stanley Cup Final, their non-conference percent will end up to 59% of their season (68/114). If the 4/5 team made all the way to the cup finals, their overall games could potentially go up to 117 games compared to top 3, their will count up to 114 games, potentially if we count all series to the maximum.

With the current format, the divisional game is 24/82=29%. With the all games, that includes non-divisional conference teams and inter-conference games would be 58/82=71 %. This is still high for a non-divisional games. And I don't even like conference playoffs with divisions set-up because their divisional games and conference games is unbalanced when counting all up to their playoff seeding. Even with the inter-conference games schedule is unbalanced because it is not 2 games per team. We are looking for balanced schedule even the inter-conference play percent is higher than the conference games with the new format.
Ok, so you don't like the current format of Conference Playoffs; but currently 78% of the games are played against teams which a team directly competes with in the Standings. I can't see the sense of reducing that number to 56% or even 33%. At least 2/3 or 3/4 of the games should be played against teams that a team directly competes with for Playoff spots.

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01-22-2013, 02:45 PM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
Within the next 10 years Quebec City , Hamilton & Seattle will have NHL. teams ethier via expansion or relocation because I think the NHL. has gone far as it can go in the USA. & start looking at markets that can make them money insted of going to markets that don't want an NHL. team but get it shoved down there throats anyway & thats how you get problems in Phoenix , Columbus , Florida ect. that don't make any money & are burden on the league its self .

I remember durring the whole Balsille fiasco that business experts & media outlets on both sides of the border have said that the NHL. over expaned it self in the USA .
Columbus "doesn't want" a team and is having one shoved down its throat... Ok. Thanks for confirming how ludicrously uninformed you are on the whole situation.

Columbus is DESPERATE to support a decent hockey team. The city went nuts over the Jackets from expansion to the lockout, and again the one season they made the playoffs (as a 7 seed, and were swept). Allstar game tickets were in huge demand, then the game was cancelled. Youth hockey and TV ratings continue to be healthy.

There is absolutely NOTHING about Columbus which suggests it is naturally a poor hockey market. In fact, just the opposite. Any expert will tell you that Columbus is losing money practically in spite of its market strength, from a prolonged period of incomparably poor management... But hey, I guess when the rumor is that they came in as part of Bettman's southern expansion (hint: check a map), then people start talking crazy.

Next time invest 10 minutes in research before saying something so maddeningly, demonstrably wrong. The fact that you're suggesting people are more naturally interested in NHL hockey in Houston, Texas than in Columbus, Ohio really highlights how poor of a position you are in to be suggesting major league changes.


Last edited by hossua34: 01-22-2013 at 02:50 PM.
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