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If We Trade for a Winger for Sid, Who do We Part With?

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01-22-2013, 12:53 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
Agree with everything except the last sentence has me a little confused. Which seasoned assets do you mean? I don't see much we can get rid of that would yield anything in return.

On a general note: Does anyone else have a much more grounded opinion of our D prospects since that HF article came out? Morrow is having trouble scoring and has been a healthy scratch on several occasions??? Dumoulin has been a frequent healthy scratch?? Both those guys were supposed to have minor chances at making the team, especially Morrow. Pouliot and Maata are unknown commodities right now, so we're not left with nearly as much to trade as I think people assume. Believe me I'm sure Morrow and Dumoulin can improve and they are young, but according to that HF article the Penguin/Pittsburgh media went WAY overboard and REALLY jumped the gun as far as stating what we had.
I was talking in general rather than specifics. That was the Shero plan, an assembly line of defensive prospects, right?

You move Niskanen, an Orpik, a Martin, either for Neal quality wiiiiiiiiiiingzzzz or in the alternative high draft picks to start the process all over again, and plug in one of our hundreds of first pairing defensive prospects that we were developing.

Except we are seeing the flaw with that plan in the Orpik thread. Even good prospects need seasoning time, during which they will be a significant downgrade. Which is great if you are a young developing team like we had in 2006 and 2007. Not so much now when we need our Orpiks.

So yeah, I get the plan, but in reality it is less than optimal. Something will have to give, either downgrade while these prospects learn their craft, or stick with the vets and start losing them from the bottom up like we did Strait. Right now Shero is splitting the baby like with Despres up and filling a lesser role. But he can not do that forever and still trade something that would be of value, an Orpik or even a Letang, for an all star wing, hoping to replace from within.

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01-22-2013, 01:45 AM
  #52
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On second thought, you're probably right. I just wouldn't want to deal two or more of our top 3 defensive prospects in a deal for Ryan.
Meh. If we trade two of them we still have four potential top four defenders in the prospect pool.

If Ryan is the target the list of prospects I'd keep off the table would consist of Beau Bennett and nothing else...and if Anaheim gave some absurd value to Bennett (hey, a roller hockey kid from SoCal would do wonders for marketing...even if he was a Kings fan) then even he becomes an option.


Honestly I question our ability to add another legitimate top flight player without killing our cap situation moving forward - even if we did part ways with Martin after this season.

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01-22-2013, 01:49 AM
  #53
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Yeah I mean there's just no way our defensive depth could withstand losing an Orpik at this time. And even though most hate him, losing Paul Martin would really hurt too. We just don't have a replacement available.

And anyways Bennett is developing nicely and will probably be on the team by next year at the latest. Then our top six winger situation is solved.

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01-22-2013, 01:55 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Big McLargehuge View Post
Meh. If we trade two of them we still have four potential top four defenders in the prospect pool.

If Ryan is the target the list of prospects I'd keep off the table would consist of Beau Bennett and nothing else...and if Anaheim gave some absurd value to Bennett (hey, a roller hockey kid from SoCal would do wonders for marketing...even if he was a Kings fan) then even he becomes an option.


Honestly I question our ability to add another legitimate top flight player without killing our cap situation moving forward - even if we did part ways with Martin after this season.
Ryan's caphit would be tops we could afford longterm. I doubt Shero is going to stiff Sid his longterm winger after taking a severe hometown discount. Martin will be gone by the time Letang/Geno's contracts kick in. I'd all but guarantee that.

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01-22-2013, 02:06 AM
  #55
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CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Beau Bennett ($0.900m) / Evgeni Malkin ($8.700m) / James Neal ($5.000m)
Sidney Crosby ($8.700m) / Bobby Ryan ($5.100m)
Brandon Sutter ($3.500m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Matt Niskanen ($4.000m) / Kris Letang ($6.500m)
Simon Despres ($0.840m) / Brooks Orpik ($3.750m)
Joe Morrow ($0.894m) / Brian Dumoulin ($0.900m)
Scott Harrington ($0.894m) /
GOALTENDERS
Marc-Andre Fleury ($5.000m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $54,678,333; BONUSES: $392,500
CAP SPACE (14-man roster): $10,014,167


I'd imagine the cap will be 70 mil come 2014-2015. You have 15 mil to build around that lineup. It's doable. Especially if Shero keeps to his philosophy of drafting D-men. He moves them as they become expendable and before their 2nd and 3rd contracts come into play.

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01-22-2013, 02:33 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Ryan's caphit would be tops we could afford longterm. I doubt Shero is going to stiff Sid his longterm winger after taking a severe hometown discount. Martin will be gone by the time Letang/Geno's contracts kick in. I'd all but guarantee that.
Geno and Letang's deals will kick in in 2014-15 and Martin's runs through 2015-16.

It's also worth noting that Sutter's deal also runs through 2014-15, though Kunitz and Orpik do come off the books. Also all of the youngsters probably aren't going to be making $900k on their 2nd contracts.

When it comes to predicting salary cap numbers...I don't like predicting salary cap numbers. I wouldn't be surprised it the cap does get back to $70 million rather quickly considering the fan strike is going so well, but I don't like assumptions.


I want Bobby Ryan on this team, and his contract is doable as long as we're careful...I'm more worried about some of the other options. In a league where Joffrey Lupul gets $5.25 million a year after one year of high-level production a decade after being drafted I'm scared of what guys that are up for new contracts sooner than Ryan are going to get.

Ryan's contract, Ryan's position, Ryan's playing style...this needs to happen...but with Anaheim's two other big players being UFAs in a little more than 5 months it's hard to imagine them dealing Ryan before knowing what happens to the others. Ryan is, after all, signed for two seasons past this year.


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01-22-2013, 02:38 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Big McLargehuge View Post
Geno and Letang's deals will kick in in 2014-15 and Martin's runs through 2015-16.

It's also worth noting that Sutter's deal also runs through 2014-15, though Kunitz and Orpik do come off the books.
I just don't see Martin finishing his contract on this team. I'd hope Bennett is ready to go and we have another top 6 option for Sid so we don't need to sign an over the hill Kunitz.

I could see Sutter resigning for something similar to Bolland.

If only 2-3 of our D prospects pan out, we're in good shape capwise.

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01-22-2013, 02:48 AM
  #58
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Honestly I don't see Martin finishing his contract here either, but I don't expect him to be dealt until after next season, if/when at least 2 of the youngsters are fully capable of top four time. That would put him heading out in a deal for cap space right as Malkin/Letang/Sutter's deals are about to kick in.

I'm just wary of expecting the cap to keep going up by huge numbers and the direction of contracts league-wide.

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01-22-2013, 04:35 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Frederick Stanley View Post
Before we trade for a winger, I'd want to see Bennett in that role first.
I agree.

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01-22-2013, 05:22 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
Agree with everything except the last sentence has me a little confused. Which seasoned assets do you mean? I don't see much we can get rid of that would yield anything in return.

On a general note: Does anyone else have a much more grounded opinion of our D prospects since that HF article came out? Morrow is having trouble scoring and has been a healthy scratch on several occasions??? Dumoulin has been a frequent healthy scratch?? Both those guys were supposed to have minor chances at making the team, especially Morrow. Pouliot and Maata are unknown commodities right now, so we're not left with nearly as much to trade as I think people assume. Believe me I'm sure Morrow and Dumoulin can improve and they are young, but according to that HF article the Penguin/Pittsburgh media went WAY overboard and REALLY jumped the gun as far as stating what we had.
I've said it before and I'll say it again... The only elite prospect the Pens have is Pouliot and to be honest he's the only natural PPQB in the entire organization. He has his holes but IMO he's the only one with elite ability there. Sure a guy like Morrow has a bomb for a shot and is a smart passer but I think he ends up being more of a well rounded player than an actual star.

Another thing worth talking about is the Pens player developement. Just because its gotten better than the CP era doesn't mean its good. A lot of the Pens top 10 prospects have just gotten to WB so I guess we'll see what happens to them.

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01-22-2013, 06:12 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by SinfulCobraZ View Post
I said this in some other thread and I am gonna say it again.

It won't work in the playoffs. Any good defensive team will focus on Crosby and shut him down as much as possible. Kunitz and Dupuis are only so good when it comes to creating plays with the extra space they get. We can't only rely on the malkin line to produce and its not like we are a defensive team that can hold a team to 1 or 2 goals almost every game in 7 game series. Its gonna be tough in the playoffs IMO.
I agree, I think you are spot on. I just think the bigger issue is we aren't using what we have effectively enough and the defensive "system" Bylsma employs leaves us vulnerable.

Again, nobody has as much talent up front as we do, there has to be a way to make it work. If not, then Shero needs to find another piece, somehow.

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01-22-2013, 06:48 AM
  #62
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We are looking to compete this season, so moving anyone in a prominent role is likely out of the question as it would be a lateral move and just create new holes to fill. Thus our tradeable assets this season are lesser roster players, picks and prospects.

Ideally we want a youngish proven winger. The problem is that no one will want to deal such a player for picks and prospects, they will want a similarly young and proven player in a position of need. The only players we currently have that might fit that description are Sutter and Niskanen, and I don’t think trading any of those is in our current interest.

The other option is to go after a more experienced winger from a team looking to rebuild. Chances are such a trade would be for a rental, as I don’t think our long-term cap space allows for the salary typically associated with such players. If we do go for a rental, I would hope/assume we’d offer a youngish roster player with some upside (Kennedy, Tangradi, Jeffrey, Bortuzzo), a pick and a medium prospect. I would be very hesitant to move any of our “top” prospects or first round pick, as I believe we’ll be contenders for a long time and will benefit more by hanging on to such prospects and picks than going for a “quick fix”. Such a package would obviously mean players like Iginla and Perry are out of the question, but I still think we could get a satisfactory upgrade that would increase our chances at winning this season without negatively impacting our chances in future years.

If Despres proves capable of a top 4 role any of Niskanen/Martin/Orpik might be expendable for a long-term solution next off-season, but I’m assuming this thread is mainly interested in the current season.

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01-22-2013, 07:45 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
I'd imagine the cap will be 70 mil come 2014-2015. You have 15 mil to build around that lineup. It's doable. Especially if Shero keeps to his philosophy of drafting D-men. He moves them as they become expendable and before their 2nd and 3rd contracts come into play.
That is very, very unlikely; assuming that the NHL sees a 5% revenue growth year-on-year then the cap in 2014-15 is still projected to be $64.3m. 2015-16 is expected to be the first rise, to about $66m.

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01-22-2013, 03:51 PM
  #64
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What can Adams, Lovejoy, and a pick get us?
Bylsma tears?

Whatever the pick gets you?

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01-22-2013, 04:07 PM
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Bylsma tears?

Whatever the pick gets you?
Yeah, take what Strait got us, and double it.

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01-22-2013, 04:09 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Big McLargehuge View Post
Honestly I don't see Martin finishing his contract here either, but I don't expect him to be dealt until after next season, if/when at least 2 of the youngsters are fully capable of top four time. That would put him heading out in a deal for cap space right as Malkin/Letang/Sutter's deals are about to kick in.

I'm just wary of expecting the cap to keep going up by huge numbers and the direction of contracts league-wide.
Whether Paul Martin is dealt before next season will depend upon what, if any, RW solution Shero finds for Sid before this coming August.

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01-22-2013, 04:12 PM
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Whether Paul Martin is dealt before next season will depend upon what, if any, RW solution Shero finds for Sid before this coming August.
I think that it is more dependent on how the kids are developing who could step in. Oh and of course what Martin does, though so far so good on that front. Then what it looks like it will take to sign our major UFA signings like Malkin. Only then would Sid's wing come into the equation.

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01-22-2013, 04:39 PM
  #68
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I really want BB to get on a line with sid. If it winds up he's with geno and neal, while crosby is stuck with kunitz and dupuis, ill be ****ing disappointed.

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01-22-2013, 05:27 PM
  #69
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I really want BB to get on a line with sid. If it winds up he's with geno and neal, while crosby is stuck with kunitz and dupuis, ill be ****ing disappointed.
I would rage. I dont get all the people that say we need a third-wheel for Geno and Neal when there is a bigger issue on Crosby's line. Geno and Neal are producing at an elite level even with Tangradi so far. Get Sid his winger and I am going to be really happy. Especially if its Ryan.

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01-22-2013, 05:43 PM
  #70
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Do you think a trade like this is possible:

Jaden Schwartz for Joe Morrow + Dumoulin/Harrington? Schwartz looks like a beast. Blues don't have very highly touted defensive prospects and Morrow could turn out to be the partner Pietriangelo needs. Or is this far-fetched?

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01-22-2013, 05:58 PM
  #71
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Bottom line is, it's going to be a very interesting deadline with all of the space we have. And for those of you thinking it would take a lot to get a solid winger in return, don't underestimate what Shero can do. He's done it a few times already, no reason he can't again. There's always a team out there he can take advantage of.

Lets put it this way, if we were doing trade proposals right now and people were suggesting we trade goligoski for Neal and niskanen , Every single one of us would laugh. Saying its ridiculous and would never happen...stop with the fantasy proposals. Yet something that ridiculous did happen. And it could again.

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01-22-2013, 06:02 PM
  #72
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I will say though, teams want developed dmen. Someone they can immediately plug in there, like we saw with Ryan Whitney and Alex . We may view a guy like morrow and pouliot as worth more than someone like goligoski but others don't. So if anything , despres would catch the biggest return. Only problem with that is the shortened season. Not enough games to stand out for a trade like we are hoping for.

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01-22-2013, 06:03 PM
  #73
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I think that it is more dependent on how the kids are developing who could step in. Oh and of course what Martin does, though so far so good on that front. Then what it looks like it will take to sign our major UFA signings like Malkin. Only then would Sid's wing come into the equation.
I think not. If Ray Shero can get Corey Perry via trade or as a free agent and has to shed Paul Martin's contract to keep him, then Paul Martin will be bye-bye this summer. It's pretty naive to think otherwise.

And, to answer ops question, the only Pens that I see as NOT EXPENDABLE in a deal for Sid's winger are Geno, Neal, Letang, and Fleury.

I wouldn't rush to trade Sutter or Morrow or guys like that, but if we're talking something like Perry where an extension was signed or something like that, then you have to be pretty narrow with the list in terms of who is and who is not untouchable.

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01-22-2013, 06:10 PM
  #74
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I wonder if we could get Matt Moulson. I don't know how much it would take though, especially since its inside the division.

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01-23-2013, 09:33 AM
  #75
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If we're targetting a legit 30+ goal scorer, then likely one of our top prospects/youngsters (Despres, Morrow, Bennett, or Harrington) along with a 1st-2nd round pick I'd imagine. Of course, it would depend on the team we were dealing with as well and their particular needs. I'm speaking more in terms of a rebuilding team looking for talented youth.

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