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All Encompassing Tanking/Rebuilding/Selling at Deadline Thread 2.0

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Old
01-22-2013, 08:20 AM
  #301
Blind Gardien
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
The more 1st rounders you have, the better your odds. If we were to land 2 or 3 extra first rounders or prospects, at least SOME of those will develop into good players. As for our own pick (likely a high one) that will help too.
All I'd say is the more 1st rounders you have, the better your odds of improving from that one element of your team-building process. But getting them inherently involves trading off from some other element. And, you're trading off something that is already of established value (otherwise your trading partner was hardly going to give up a 1st for them) for something with risk attached. So it's a risky process too. Obviously if you have expiring contracts who you don't expect to be able to re-sign (or who you don't feel are a priority to re-sign), then that makes it easier... Hal Gill and AK deals were good examples. Nobody on today's roster is in that category (yet).

Just have to wait and see how things progress this season. Always try to get better, but I don't think it would make sense to say today that this or that player is clearly a player we should trade for more risky draft picks. Some are of course much likelier candidates than others. But you still have to see how everything transpires first, you can't just go into a season with a "we're going to trade all our veterans for draft picks no matter what" philosophy.

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01-22-2013, 08:47 AM
  #302
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
In 2008-09, Gainey wanted to make the playoffs, and so he didn't trade Kovalev, Koivu, Tanguay, Komisarek, etc at the trade deadline. He held on to them.

But then we lost them all anyway. Does that mean our young players had no one to learn from? No, because when you have cash you can always sign mediocre players on the UFA market. You can't replace stars, but you can replace 2nd and 3rd line players and 3rd pairing dmen. We got Gionta, Cammalleri, Spacek, Gill, and could have had Gomez for cheaper.

We would have been better off getting draft picks for Kovalev, Tanguay, Koivu, Komisarek and then replacing them, rather than just replacing them without getting draft picks in the first place.



Part of the problem is that this team's luck in recent years is clouding people's opinions.

Do you agree that in any given year, an 8th place team is equivalent to a 9th place team in skill, and the difference is just due to luck?

I bet you do.

We might even agree that the difference between 7,8,9,10 is almost entirely luck. I think it is.

In the post-lockout era, we finished:

2005-06, 8th place
2006-07, 10th place
2007-08, 1st place
2008-09, 8th place
2009-10, 8th place
2010-11, 6th place
2011-12, 15th place

In the years where luck mattered, we were 8th, 10th, 8th, 8th, 6th. Out of those five years, we were lucky 4 times. We got to see the early playoff exits that people think is the apex of hockey. It could have just as easily been 9th, 7th, 11th, 10th, 9th. If we had had that virtually identical result in regular season standings, most of these boards, particularly the people who just react to life rather than taking a step back and thinking and being active agents in life, would likely be in favor of a proper rebuild. Their minds are clouded by the fact we were lucky. We didn't need to be in 8th place for 3 years out of 6. The same exact teams could have just as easily finished in 9th, and if that **non-structural** change had happened people would have different opinions.
Agreed. I think you misunderstood my post. And you know my position on the rebuilding question. When I wrote that finishing 8th does not get you top picks, and then: 'get used to it', I should have written 'Understand this.' I was trying to say that finishing 12-15th for a couple of years is not fun, but is required.

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01-22-2013, 09:03 AM
  #303
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Best post in this thread AINEC. I love how Washington is always brought up as an example of why this strategy works. lmao. I'm not sure if I missed something they've done. Their claim to fame is getting knocked out by the habs. Sound reasoning there.

I've yet to see anything that suggests the Washington Capitals model is a model to emulate.
Nice argument based on one case.

Of course the Habs may fail if they rebuild, no one here has said a cup is guaranteed by rebuilding.

But I would rather finish near the top of the conference most years like Wash, with an exciting team that has star players, and have a legit chance at a cup, than be **** for 20 years.

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01-22-2013, 09:09 AM
  #304
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
You sound like you've been converted. I don't remember you coming to the dark side like this before.


You have been converted. Still not willing to deal Plecs though correct?
What did it for me was the excitement of seeing us grab a top pick like Galchenyuk. The whole city is nuts for this kid because he has the potential to be an actual star, something we haven't had in ages. And that's a very significant gap in our team's planning. How did we become such a star-less franchise? Answer: because management gave fans the empty promise of immediate gratification instead of the smart strategy of patient development. I understand why it was done from a marketing standpoint, but it's left us pitifully mediocre and going nowhere.

It took a total failure of vision to end up 28th and get a possible future star.

As far as being converted, well, I've been reading your posts the last year and a half and I've appreciated a lot of your logic. I still want to keep a balance of vets -- and I love Plekanec -- but I recognize more clearly that Cup-winning teams don't happen accidentally. You need to assemble many superior pieces, and the most affordable way is to develop 'em. The core we're so proud of is a triumph of development. The core players we gave away to other teams is a memorial to the developing contender we could have been.

Building from youth isn't something I grew up with or ever had to worry about. My first memory was watching Jean Beliveau score his 500th goal from a black-and-white TV smaller than the screen I'm typing on now. I grew up in the 70s when Montreal's calendar for the new year included a pre-printed Stanley Cup parade date. Draft picks? Who cared. We were the Harlem Globetrotters and the rest of the league was the Washington Generals. Bottom line: I'm old and I'm spoiled. Taking the long view of winning meant waiting until next week.

But now I understand how hard it is to be dominant in today's NHL and I'm willing to take a harder look at what works and what doesn't. What's very clear is that our recent strategy DIDN'T work. You don't luck your way into the SCF, and you don't bad-luck your way to 28th. Whatever the Habs did was obviously wrong, so let's reinvent the vision. Deal some vets if it gives us a legit shot at becoming a contender. It doesn't mean I want a rebuild, it means I want to build on what's there.

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01-22-2013, 09:16 AM
  #305
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Originally Posted by FF de Mars View Post
We need quality, not quantity.
****in right. Bang on. All the more reason to rebuild this year and get a top five, , because Timmins has not drafted one star forward lower than third overall, (and Gally is not proven,) in his entire tenure here. And Pax is not a star so don't bring that up.

I give Timmins this and next draft. If he cannot finally come up with one top line forward drafted below 15th, a forward who breaks out at 19, not 25, by then, goodbye. Other scouts do this, why does Timmins get a pass? Why?

The love for Timmins here is absurd. The Fischer pick alone should have got him gassed. Giroux, Carter, Richards, Perry, all missed, among others. I can't stand Timmins.

You will see, Timins will be gassed in the next two years, and he should be.

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01-22-2013, 09:24 AM
  #306
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Why does it have to be surgical? I want want our "tank" to be in the likes of the Hindenburge blimp disaster!
That was refreshing touch of humour, that we all need. Well done.

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01-22-2013, 09:28 AM
  #307
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
There is an element of luck involved in everything, including drafting in the first round.

The grass is always greener.
Wrong. Higher picks in the first round are less risky, it is fact. Why do you write such things?

And then a tired cliche. Sometimes the grass really is greener on the other side of the fence dude. We finished 15th last year. The grass in our yard is dead.

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01-22-2013, 09:40 AM
  #308
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I do think that if we do things right this year we can shift from being a rebuilding team to being a transition team as soon as 2013-2014.

That means:

- Keep Subban
- Deal 1 or 2 vets
- Draft in the top-6
Exactly. That is all we are saying, and people are freaking out. The vets on the block would be Cole, Pleks, and Kaberle. Wow, how terrible. Cole might get us a first, Pleks a first and /or a good young prospect, and Kabs a third. That is huge.

I would not do Markov. The Chelios syndrome may apply with him.

I would only dangle Pleks if we are out of it by March, and only if we get a very good return of picks/prospects.

You need to try the Pleks offer as a competent GM. You might find a desperate sucker. It's called due diligence.

Otherwise, keep Pleky.

And Gio stays. He is the captain of the Montreal Canadiens, and despite, or because of, our shameful record the last 20 years with captains, you just don't trade the captain of the Habs.

The 'shock horror' rebuild then becomes the loss of Pleks, Cole and Kaberle for possibility a good young prospect, and an additional 1st, 2nd and 3-4th rounder in 2013. In a huge draft year. Thank you very much.


Last edited by bsl: 01-22-2013 at 09:50 AM.
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01-22-2013, 09:41 AM
  #309
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To me, this is a 4 phase project.

Phase 1: Basically trying to get through this season with a lot of bandaids without ruining any of the future doing so (which is in part why I want both Gally's sent back to HAM/Sarnia) and potentially having a monster draft with a high pick and a trio of 2nd rounders. Trade some expendable some vets for picks/prospects at the deadline.

Phase 2: Integration of the first wave of kids (Galchenyuk-Gallagher-Tinordi-possibly 2013 1st rounder if we're picking really high, etc) and hopefully at least battling for a playoff spot next year. This phase could possibly extend into 2014-15 depending on progress of the first wave of kids and what we do in summer of 2014 with our cap room.

Phase 3: Tons of cap room opens up in summer 2014 as mentioned, giving us the chance to make a strategic addition or 2, second wave of kids (Beaulieu-Collberg, etc) should be ready, further maturation of the Price-Pacioretty-Subban young veteran core and the first wave of kids (Galchenyuk-Gallagher-Tinordi-possibly 2013 1st rounder, etc) quickly emerges into solid pieces (especially Gally into a #1 C) and we're seen as a team on the rise.

Phase 4: Further progress from the first and second wave of kids, adding a final piece or two.

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01-22-2013, 09:43 AM
  #310
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
Exactly. That is all we are saying, and people are freaking out. The vets on the block would be Cole and Kaberle. Wow, how terrible. Cole might get us a first, and Kabs a third. That is huge.

I would not do Markov. The Chelios syndrome may apply with him.

My only additional step would be to dangle Pleks if we are out of it by March, and only if we get a very good return of picks/prospects.

You need to try the Pleks offer as a competent GM. You might find a desperate sucker. It's called due diligence.

Otherwise, keep Pleky.
Deal one or two vets yes... no one is complaining about that, but putting pleks in that category is stupid. Our best player for picks and prospects... yeesh, I thought Lafleaurs guy brainwashed you or something

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01-22-2013, 09:49 AM
  #311
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Dude, you are out to lunch.

I said I'd do Markov for JVR and a pick and folks FREEEEEEAKED out. At another point I said I'd do Cammy + Halak (who turned into a starter) for JVR and a pick. Ironically it was Cammy that people were upset about, not Halak... You are way, way off here.

I don't believe in dealing prospect for prospect... never did.

You are dead wrong here. And if you have a post where I suggested dealing Max for ANY player, please find it.

I'm talking about the development phase... not the contending phase. Look at the Oilers young team going to cut their teeth together... they don't need a ton of vets and neither do we. We have Gorges, Price and Gionta. We don't need to keep Cole, Plecs or Markov. If we were contending it would be a different story but we're not.

The playoffs are not important now. Getting the best talent is.

It's in the thread that YOU referenced from a couple of years back. People laughed at the Markov trade suggestion (no way we can trade him.) If you're referencing it and you thought it was stupid, then you're right there with the other posters.

I'm referencing a thread that YOU brought up and got wrong. Don't bring this stuff up if you don't want to be bashed over the head with it.

What if it didn't work out? Three things would have to go wrong for it not to work out. First JVR would have to bust. Second, the pick would have to bust. And third our own pick (which likley would've been a lot higher) would have to bust.

On the flipside we lose Markov who wasn't going to take us anywhere. That's a good risk to take man. Do you not see this?

BTW, we can play this game with Markov too... what if he gets hurt for three years?

What's the flipside? Seriously man, so what if that trade busts? Is it the end of the world if we lose Markov or Cole? I mean come on man we were 15th with Cole and Plecs in the lineup, what are we holding onto them for?

And dude sorry but Timmins has been great for us. A 1st for Cole and Markov gives us two firsts and Pleks can get us a prospect +. What are the odds of all these picks and prospects being busts in a deep draft with Timmins at the helm?

Be practical man. You're talking like its darts on a board... it doesn't work that way. You'll probably get a decent player with a 1st round pick and we can build with that. Factor in Timmins and a deep draft and it really makes sense to do it esp since we aren't contending.

1. Useful pieces for today don't mean anything for us if we're finishing 15th. Doesn't matter at all, esp if those players are in their mid 30s.
2. Again, you use the term COULD like its a roulette wheel. Its not man. Its not a 1 in a 100 that we'll get a good player. Maybe this is why you don't understand what we're talking about.

Good picks usually become good prospects. Good prospects usually become good players. Yet you're talking like its a total crapshoot. It's not.

I expect a return of the following as long as these players have a decent year:

Markov: 1st
Cole: 1st
Plecs: Good prospect + picks

Very realistic and reasonable return. Makes us better for the future and we maximize their value now. They aren't going to lead us anywhere but they can help contending teams who are going for it now. That still leaves us plenty of vets for mentoring etc... but we still cash in on our assets.


How long have you been saying this? 15 years? 10? 5?

And before you say it's irrelvant... think for a second. You were just as passionate that we didn't need a rebulid five years ago. Well, do you think we'd be stronger now if we'd done it then?

Yeah, I guess I'm wrong there too right?

I don't think I'd like to do what Ottawa has done. They're not fully rebuilt yet and I don't see them competing anytime soon.

As for our core, yeah we've got a good core to start with. I think it makes a whole lot of sense to add to it though. Going ahead and getting FAs now with what we have wont' get us anywhere. We're better off adding more prospects to what we have. If we get another top pick this year that's great. Ditto with the returns that I've suggested. If you're happy with our upcoming core now, how much happier would you be if we had some more great prospects to go with it.

Take your own advice. You came in here like a jerk and got schooled. You want to be spoken (written to) with respect then extend the same courtesy. Don't come in like a cowboy saying all of our opinions are absurd. If you do that you can expect a measured response.
The bolded statements are where you are flat-out wrong. First of all, the Habs haven't finished worse than 8th place since the 06-07 season, where they finished 10th, so stop acting like falling to 15th place is a common occurrence. Also, the notion that a veteran is rendered useless because the team he plays on finished last ONE season makes absolutely NO sense! How could you honestly say "Useful pieces today don't mean anything if you're finishing 15th"? Are you actually serious? Dude, that is the most flawed logic I've ever heard. With that logic, you would make the claim Philadelphia, who finished last in 06-07, should've traded Mike Richards, Simon Gagne and Jeff Carter for picks and prospects because any player on a team finishing last is useless, right? Except that they finished 6th the next season, 5th the next and has been a contender ever since.

In fact, the Flyers example is the perfect example to show how your idea is a waste of time. You don't trade away "useful pieces" because you assume they "don't mean anything if you're finishing 15th". Absolutely ridiculous mindset, whichever way you look at it. Should Boston have traded Marc Savard, Patrice Bergeron, and Zdeno Chara in 06-07 when they finished 13th? After all, Chara had an average season, right? NO. Because a useful piece is still USEFUL whether or not you finish low in the standings, and wouldn't you know it, they went on to be conference champs within two years of their awful season.

Also, why are you obsessed with getting rid of Markov? You do realize he is at his worst trade value of all time right now, and he will NOT get you a 1st round draft pick unless someone wants to take a risk on an above 35 defenseman who has been injured for 2 years and hasn't proven anything since returning. He is obviously worth more on this team than off it. Plekanec is part of the core of this team, being a valuable player playing in all situations, and you want to trade him for prospects and picks? Can't you see, YOU NEED veterans like Plekanec on your team.

A core full of young players needs veterans for support and development, but you can't see that. Trading away a bunch of effective veterans like Markov, Cole, Plekanec and Gionta will make our team even worse, and they COULD possibly get us at least some good return in terms of prospects or picks, but that is pretty much killing our next season or two. Wouldn't you rather be a team like Detroit, where they had 2-3 star forwards in players like Zetterberg and Datsyuk and 1-2 star defensemen in Lidstrom and maybe Kronwall, and then build around this star talent with good drafting and prospect development? No, what you want is Edmonton, where they stock their team with youth to the brim, loaded with young talent but very little veteran leadership to guide them, which is why they have been stagnating for so long, and eventually these young players will all be asking for huge contracts and Edmonton won't be able to afford all of them anyways. So they waited 6 years in a straight up rebuild, never making it to the playoffs, all for a short window of opportunity for this youth to shine before they keep a couple and are forced to trade the rest of let them go to UFA, because with that talent you know they'll ask for money.

You see, Edmonton has a bunch of youth on forward and some on defense, but what they could use are some veterans, especially on defense where experience is much more of an asset, where they can play the support role to these young stars and help them succeed. You will never get anywhere if you are always trading away your veterans; you need that stability on your team. And you will CERTAINLY never get anywhere if you trade useful players whenever your team does poorly, which I quoted word-for-word as you said it.

The Habs should strive to be Detroit, where we have these young potential stars that we build around by drafting well, developing properly, supporting them with a mix of good veteran leadership and youth, and finally great coaching. What we have that Detroit hasn't had in a while is a stud young goalie, which is great. Trying to be Edmonton will not work with this group, but trying to be Detroit will. Keep the veterans that are effective players for this team like Plekanec, keep the veterans who are helping the development of our youth, like Cole and Markov. If you can, get a good return on some mid-level forwards like Bourque and maybe even Gionta if the price is right. Develop the kids like Galchenyuk, Beaulieu, Collberg and Tinordi properly. Be a good drafting team, which I think we are. I am not sold on our coaching, though, but it makes the most sense to give Therrien some time to establish his new system during a rushed season, and hope Bergevin makes the right decisions when the time comes.

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Old
01-22-2013, 09:55 AM
  #312
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
To me, this is a 4 phase project.

Phase 1: Basically trying to get through this season with a lot of bandaids without ruining any of the future doing so (which is in part why I want both Gally's sent back to HAM/Sarnia) and potentially having a monster draft with a high pick and a trio of 2nd rounders. Trade some expendable some vets for picks/prospects at the deadline.

Phase 2: Integration of the first wave of kids (Galchenyuk-Gallagher-Tinordi-possibly 2013 1st rounder if we're picking really high, etc) and hopefully at least battling for a playoff spot next year. This phase could possibly extend into 2014-15 depending on progress of the first wave of kids and what we do in summer of 2014 with our cap room.

Phase 3: Tons of cap room opens up in summer 2014 as mentioned, giving us the chance to make a strategic addition or 2, second wave of kids (Beaulieu-Collberg, etc) should be ready, further maturation of the Price-Pacioretty-Subban young veteran core and the first wave of kids (Galchenyuk-Gallagher-Tinordi-possibly 2013 1st rounder, etc) quickly emerges into solid pieces (especially Gally into a #1 C) and we're seen as a team on the rise.

Phase 4: Further progress from the first and second wave of kids, adding a final piece or two.
I agree with this 100%, and with some free agent acquisitions as well as mid-level trades for prospects and picks along the way, this could have huge success. This is the kind of hockey logic I am talking about. No one minds trading expendables and even an effective veteran or two for a great return that could help us in the future. By doing this and drafting well, this team could be a real juggernaut within a couple years.

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Old
01-22-2013, 09:56 AM
  #313
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
I also agree that we can be competitive by next season as well, assuming management plays it smart and employs some intelligent asset management. I never want to see my habs lose, but the shortened season and seeing for my very eyes how exciting a kid like Galchenyuk can be will make the losses sting a bit less.

I think a lot of us knew that with the signings of Prust, Armstrong and Bouillon that management isn't really expecting to 'go for it' this year. And I'm thankful for that. The only thing worse than narrowly missing the playoffs or getting bumped in the 1st round is doing either of those while giving up future assets.
Prust is thought of as cup window. And he should be. He's our Mike McPhee. Armstrong and Cube are fillers this year.

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01-22-2013, 11:06 AM
  #314
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****in right. Bang on. All the more reason to rebuild this year and get a top five, , because Timmins has not drafted one star forward lower than third overall, (and Gally is not proven,) in his entire tenure here. And Pax is not a star so don't bring that up.

I give Timmins this and next draft. If he cannot finally come up with one top line forward drafted below 15th, a forward who breaks out at 19, not 25, by then, goodbye. Other scouts do this, why does Timmins get a pass? Why?

The love for Timmins here is absurd. The Fischer pick alone should have got him gassed. Giroux, Carter, Richards, Perry, all missed, among others. I can't stand Timmins.

You will see, Timins will be gassed in the next two years, and he should be.
and despite missing on these players, teams such as the Hawks, Kings, Bruins, Pens still managed to win cups.

and despite not having tons of 1st, 2nd or 3rd every other year...

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01-22-2013, 11:19 AM
  #315
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All I'd say is the more 1st rounders you have, the better your odds of improving from that one element of your team-building process. But getting them inherently involves trading off from some other element. And, you're trading off something that is already of established value (otherwise your trading partner was hardly going to give up a 1st for them) for something with risk attached. So it's a risky process too. Obviously if you have expiring contracts who you don't expect to be able to re-sign (or who you don't feel are a priority to re-sign), then that makes it easier... Hal Gill and AK deals were good examples. Nobody on today's roster is in that category (yet).
There is always risk involved, no doubt about it. It has to be a calculated risk. People sitting there saying it's a roulette wheel are out to lunch. It's not that random.

There's no doubt that some won't work out, but some will. And I don't think we have much to lose.
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Just have to wait and see how things progress this season. Always try to get better, but I don't think it would make sense to say today that this or that player is clearly a player we should trade for more risky draft picks. Some are of course much likelier candidates than others. But you still have to see how everything transpires first, you can't just go into a season with a "we're going to trade all our veterans for draft picks no matter what" philosophy.
Actually, we should've done this last year. We'll wait and see but if we do look like we're 'tanking' then definitely make the moves. And for the love of God, please no shortcuts trying to get to 8th. If we make 8th... fine. But no more moves that don't build towards a cup.
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
What did it for me was the excitement of seeing us grab a top pick like Galchenyuk. The whole city is nuts for this kid because he has the potential to be an actual star, something we haven't had in ages. And that's a very significant gap in our team's planning. How did we become such a star-less franchise? Answer: because management gave fans the empty promise of immediate gratification instead of the smart strategy of patient development. I understand why it was done from a marketing standpoint, but it's left us pitifully mediocre and going nowhere.

It took a total failure of vision to end up 28th and get a possible future star.

As far as being converted, well, I've been reading your posts the last year and a half and I've appreciated a lot of your logic. I still want to keep a balance of vets -- and I love Plekanec -- but I recognize more clearly that Cup-winning teams don't happen accidentally. You need to assemble many superior pieces, and the most affordable way is to develop 'em. The core we're so proud of is a triumph of development. The core players we gave away to other teams is a memorial to the developing contender we could have been.

Building from youth isn't something I grew up with or ever had to worry about. My first memory was watching Jean Beliveau score his 500th goal from a black-and-white TV smaller than the screen I'm typing on now. I grew up in the 70s when Montreal's calendar for the new year included a pre-printed Stanley Cup parade date. Draft picks? Who cared. We were the Harlem Globetrotters and the rest of the league was the Washington Generals. Bottom line: I'm old and I'm spoiled. Taking the long view of winning meant waiting until next week.

But now I understand how hard it is to be dominant in today's NHL and I'm willing to take a harder look at what works and what doesn't. What's very clear is that our recent strategy DIDN'T work. You don't luck your way into the SCF, and you don't bad-luck your way to 28th. Whatever the Habs did was obviously wrong, so let's reinvent the vision. Deal some vets if it gives us a legit shot at becoming a contender. It doesn't mean I want a rebuild, it means I want to build on what's there.
Nice.

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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
Exactly. That is all we are saying, and people are freaking out. The vets on the block would be Cole, Pleks, and Kaberle. Wow, how terrible. Cole might get us a first, Pleks a first and /or a good young prospect, and Kabs a third. That is huge.

I would not do Markov. The Chelios syndrome may apply with him.

I would only dangle Pleks if we are out of it by March, and only if we get a very good return of picks/prospects.

You need to try the Pleks offer as a competent GM. You might find a desperate sucker. It's called due diligence.

Otherwise, keep Pleky.

And Gio stays. He is the captain of the Montreal Canadiens, and despite, or because of, our shameful record the last 20 years with captains, you just don't trade the captain of the Habs.

The 'shock horror' rebuild then becomes the loss of Pleks, Cole and Kaberle for possibility a good young prospect, and an additional 1st, 2nd and 3-4th rounder in 2013. In a huge draft year. Thank you very much.
Big difference between Chelios and Markov. Markov is at the end of his career whereas Chelios was just coming into his prime. It's not nearly the same thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
To me, this is a 4 phase project.

Phase 1: Basically trying to get through this season with a lot of bandaids without ruining any of the future doing so (which is in part why I want both Gally's sent back to HAM/Sarnia) and potentially having a monster draft with a high pick and a trio of 2nd rounders. Trade some expendable some vets for picks/prospects at the deadline.

Phase 2: Integration of the first wave of kids (Galchenyuk-Gallagher-Tinordi-possibly 2013 1st rounder if we're picking really high, etc) and hopefully at least battling for a playoff spot next year. This phase could possibly extend into 2014-15 depending on progress of the first wave of kids and what we do in summer of 2014 with our cap room.

Phase 3: Tons of cap room opens up in summer 2014 as mentioned, giving us the chance to make a strategic addition or 2, second wave of kids (Beaulieu-Collberg, etc) should be ready, further maturation of the Price-Pacioretty-Subban young veteran core and the first wave of kids (Galchenyuk-Gallagher-Tinordi-possibly 2013 1st rounder, etc) quickly emerges into solid pieces (especially Gally into a #1 C) and we're seen as a team on the rise.

Phase 4: Further progress from the first and second wave of kids, adding a final piece or two.
What constitutes and expendable vet?

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01-22-2013, 11:22 AM
  #316
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
To me, this is a 4 phase project.

Phase 1: Basically trying to get through this season with a lot of bandaids without ruining any of the future doing so (which is in part why I want both Gally's sent back to HAM/Sarnia) and potentially having a monster draft with a high pick and a trio of 2nd rounders. Trade some expendable some vets for picks/prospects at the deadline.

Phase 2: Integration of the first wave of kids (Galchenyuk-Gallagher-Tinordi-possibly 2013 1st rounder if we're picking really high, etc) and hopefully at least battling for a playoff spot next year. This phase could possibly extend into 2014-15 depending on progress of the first wave of kids and what we do in summer of 2014 with our cap room.

Phase 3: Tons of cap room opens up in summer 2014 as mentioned, giving us the chance to make a strategic addition or 2, second wave of kids (Beaulieu-Collberg, etc) should be ready, further maturation of the Price-Pacioretty-Subban young veteran core and the first wave of kids (Galchenyuk-Gallagher-Tinordi-possibly 2013 1st rounder, etc) quickly emerges into solid pieces (especially Gally into a #1 C) and we're seen as a team on the rise.

Phase 4: Further progress from the first and second wave of kids, adding a final piece or two.
first wave ? what about the Subban, Patches, Price and co ?

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01-22-2013, 11:24 AM
  #317
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So how long until we drive these wonderful 1st and 2nd round picks out of town like Subban and Eller?

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01-22-2013, 11:29 AM
  #318
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2007.

while the Habs draft Subban, McDonagh and Paccioretty in the top 50, L.A. draft Thomas Hickey (ahead of Alzner, Kopitar, Voracek, Couture, Shattenkirk, Perron) who has yet to play a single NHL game and Oskar Moller with their first two picks.


Guess who ends up winning the cup in 2012...

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01-22-2013, 11:30 AM
  #319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
So how long until we drive these wonderful 1st and 2nd round picks out of town like Subban and Eller?
No worries, once they're gone we'll start another rebuild

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01-22-2013, 11:35 AM
  #320
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Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
The bolded statements are where you are flat-out wrong.
And we're off to a great start here...

So you're telling us that we didn't finish 15th with Plecs and Cole in the lineup last year?

I guess by 'flat-out wrong' you mean 'absolutely correct' right? Because that's FACT not opinion. Seriously man... you can't even acknowledge this?
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Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
First of all, the Habs haven't finished worse than 8th place since the 06-07 season, where they finished 10th, so stop acting like falling to 15th place is a common occurrence. Also, the notion that a veteran is rendered useless because the team he plays on finished last ONE season makes absolutely NO sense! How could you honestly say "Useful pieces today don't mean anything if you're finishing 15th"? Are you actually serious? Dude, that is the most flawed logic I've ever heard. With that logic, you would make the claim Philadelphia, who finished last in 06-07, should've traded Mike Richards, Simon Gagne and Jeff Carter for picks and prospects because any player on a team finishing last is useless, right? Except that they finished 6th the next season, 5th the next and has been a contender ever since.
I said we finished 15th last year with both guys in the lineup. And I was right.

I also said we could easily do the same thing this year. As for the 06-07 season, I don't remember Cole being on that roster dude. I'm talking about the state of the team as it is and what we should do about it.

But you can't even admit to the simple fact that we finished 15th. No wonder you don't understand anything.

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Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
In fact, the Flyers example is the perfect example to show how your idea is a waste of time. You don't trade away "useful pieces" because you assume they "don't mean anything if you're finishing 15th". Absolutely ridiculous mindset, whichever way you look at it. Should Boston have traded Marc Savard, Patrice Bergeron, and Zdeno Chara in 06-07 when they finished 13th? After all, Chara had an average season, right? NO. Because a useful piece is still USEFUL whether or not you finish low in the standings, and wouldn't you know it, they went on to be conference champs within two years of their awful season.
Yeah you're right the Flyers didn't break up their core... oh wait, they dealt away Richards and Carter....

As for the Bruins, they didn't trade for any picks either and... oh wait, they got Seguin, Rask and Hamilton all picks and prosepects from the Maple Leafs.

But yeah, let's not talk about that part...
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Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
Also, why are you obsessed with getting rid of Markov? You do realize he is at his worst trade value of all time right now, and he will NOT get you a 1st round draft pick unless someone wants to take a risk on an above 35 defenseman who has been injured for 2 years and hasn't proven anything since returning. He is obviously worth more on this team than off it. Plekanec is part of the core of this team, being a valuable player playing in all situations, and you want to trade him for prospects and picks? Can't you see, YOU NEED veterans like Plekanec on your team.
If he doesn't warrant a 1st then why is he so valuable to our team? Which is it? Is he a star or is he worthless? As for his value, I was pretty clear that he'd have to have a decent season to fetch a 1st. I don't see how he doesn't if he puts up decent numbers.

As for Plecs being part of the core... that's great and all but this core isn't going anywhere right now. If it was, I wouldn't think about trading him. And no we don't NEED Plecs on this team so stop being so frantic. We have other vets who can play mommy to the kids. It doesn't have to be him.

And I'm also not suggesting he be dumped or given away. If he doesn't net a strong prospect or top ten pick then don't deal him. I'm just saying that we should try to shop him... that's all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
A core full of young players needs veterans for support and development, but you can't see that.
How many vets have to be on the roster? 20? 10?

We've got enough that we can trade those three guys away man. Passing up on young talent for the sake of a babysitter is silly.
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Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
Trading away a bunch of effective veterans like Markov, Cole, Plekanec and Gionta will make our team even worse, and they COULD possibly get us at least some good return in terms of prospects or picks, but that is pretty much killing our next season or two. Wouldn't you rather be a team like Detroit, where they had 2-3 star forwards in players like Zetterberg and Datsyuk and 1-2 star defensemen in Lidstrom and maybe Kronwall, and then build around this star talent with good drafting and prospect development? No, what you want is Edmonton, where they stock their team with youth to the brim, loaded with young talent but very little veteran leadership to guide them, which is why they have been stagnating for so long, and eventually these young players will all be asking for huge contracts and Edmonton won't be able to afford all of them anyways. So they waited 6 years in a straight up rebuild, never making it to the playoffs, all for a short window of opportunity for this youth to shine before they keep a couple and are forced to trade the rest of let them go to UFA, because with that talent you know they'll ask for money.
So what? We should've done this long ago when Koivu left. We didn't. We went for quick fixes. So instead of builidng when we should've we wasted years with Gomez and co. Now you want to put it off some more? Why? Why are the next two seasons so important to you when we're not all that good a team right now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
You see, Edmonton has a bunch of youth on forward and some on defense, but what they could use are some veterans, especially on defense where experience is much more of an asset, where they can play the support role to these young stars and help them succeed. You will never get anywhere if you are always trading away your veterans; you need that stability on your team. And you will CERTAINLY never get anywhere if you trade useful players whenever your team does poorly, which I quoted word-for-word as you said it.
They'll get vets down the road. They did things the right way (even if it was unintentional) and got the talent first. Ryan Smyth is over there, he can play the role of leader just like Gionta can for us. You're talking like all these players will be lost forever. They won't.

It's a whole lot easier to get role players via FA down the road to flesh out a roster than it is to get young talent to build around.

How do you not understand this?
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Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
The Habs should strive to be Detroit, where we have these young potential stars that we build around by drafting well, developing properly, supporting them with a mix of good veteran leadership and youth, and finally great coaching. What we have that Detroit hasn't had in a while is a stud young goalie, which is great. Trying to be Edmonton will not work with this group, but trying to be Detroit will. Keep the veterans that are effective players for this team like Plekanec, keep the veterans who are helping the development of our youth, like Cole and Markov. If you can, get a good return on some mid-level forwards like Bourque and maybe even Gionta if the price is right. Develop the kids like Galchenyuk, Beaulieu, Collberg and Tinordi properly. Be a good drafting team, which I think we are. I am not sold on our coaching, though, but it makes the most sense to give Therrien some time to establish his new system during a rushed season, and hope Bergevin makes the right decisions when the time comes.
I love it when people say we should be like Detroit as though we can just all of a sudden start winning like they did. That club drafted high more than any other team did in the 80s and got one of the best players of all time out of it. Then they got lucky with Fedorov and Lidstrom late in draffs (something that's almost impossible to do)... once that's done then you're going to win a cup no matter what.

Detroit had MULTIPLE superstars on it. We've had none. And if you don't have superstars... good luck. We can't just wake up and decide to be Detroit dude...

Detroit's path can't be repeated. Edmonton's can. That's the difference.

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01-22-2013, 11:39 AM
  #321
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
2007.

while the Habs draft Subban, McDonagh and Paccioretty in the top 50, L.A. draft Thomas Hickey (ahead of Alzner, Kopitar, Voracek, Couture, Shattenkirk, Perron) who has yet to play a single NHL game and Oskar Moller with their first two picks.


Guess who ends up winning the cup in 2012...
??? 2005.

Also drafted by...L.A.

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01-22-2013, 11:53 AM
  #322
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
??? 2005.

Also drafted by...L.A.
want better ?

none of their 2010 and 2011 picks were part of their cup run, NONE


2005 ? oh, you mean THE year they had a great draft (like we had with Subban, Patches McDo) ?

wich is a good thing considering how good they were at the 2004 draft

and that their 2006 picks, the only two to make the NHL didnt really play a big role in their cup win



well, if that's how it works, we're all set then, right ?

(I know, wrong year, but it got me to look further so, thanks haha)

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01-22-2013, 12:02 PM
  #323
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****in right. Bang on. All the more reason to rebuild this year and get a top five, , because Timmins has not drafted one star forward lower than third overall, (and Gally is not proven,) in his entire tenure here. And Pax is not a star so don't bring that up.

I give Timmins this and next draft. If he cannot finally come up with one top line forward drafted below 15th, a forward who breaks out at 19, not 25, by then, goodbye. Other scouts do this, why does Timmins get a pass? Why?

The love for Timmins here is absurd. The Fischer pick alone should have got him gassed. Giroux, Carter, Richards, Perry, all missed, among others. I can't stand Timmins.

You will see, Timins will be gassed in the next two years, and he should be.
You have to be kidding me. Look at all the amazing players he has drafted outside the first round: PK Subban, Jaroslav Halak, Tomas Plekanec, Mark Streit and many more. Outside of the top five, he has drafted great players like Pacioretty, Kostitsyn, McDonagh, etc. In the top 5, we have gotten Galchenyuk and Price, both potential all-stars. I don't see how you could possibly say Timmins is overrated, the guy finds gems in the later rounds and has a knack for drafting.

He also drafted Mikhail Grabovski, Alexander Perezhogin, Marcel Hossa, Nathan Beaulieu and Jarred Tinordi. Obviously, most of these picks were home-runs and many of them weren't even in the top round. Timmins is a great head scout and deserves to be where he is.

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01-22-2013, 12:03 PM
  #324
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...
Detroit's path can't be repeated. Edmonton's can. That's the difference.
The 80's Edmonton? Well, the thing is, anybody on any side can cherry pick any number of examples, franchise or player, and none of it means anything as a general rule or guiding philosophy. You need a stable and smart management structure, and/or a dose of good luck along the way. The rest follows from that. Make good trades at the right times, whether they are for veterans or for draft picks, win hockey games, grow the culture of winning, cross your fingers.

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01-22-2013, 12:41 PM
  #325
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The 80's Edmonton? Well, the thing is, anybody on any side can cherry pick any number of examples, franchise or player, and none of it means anything as a general rule or guiding philosophy. You need a stable and smart management structure, and/or a dose of good luck along the way. The rest follows from that. Make good trades at the right times, whether they are for veterans or for draft picks, win hockey games, grow the culture of winning, cross your fingers.
wondering that myself... 80's oilers with Messier/Kurri/Anderson/Coffey/Gretzky on it... or the actual Oilers who've been out of the PO the last SIX seasons.

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