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P.K Subban Thread 4.0 - Still Unsigned Edition

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Old
01-22-2013, 01:12 AM
  #876
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Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez View Post
There is a difference between rebuild and retooling. This team needs a few pieces... not an overhaul. Especially after this draft, the cupboard will be full
Honest question about your (and others') opinion on how that would play out.

Let's say we get a full cupboard by sucking this year. How long before we make the playoffs and with a good team that can contend? I really don't want to become a team full of good prospects who are in the minors while our NHL team becomes the embarrassment of the league. I can't let go of the pride to allow us to continue like this and while I get that long term planning is important, what you said is very true - we only need a retool and quite frankly, just a slightly better D (once PK is back). People want to trade Pleks and Gio. I don't get it. They put up points and do their jobs. Trade them for the future then, right? When is this future going to arrive? 5 years? How is this team going to transition from having vets to no good vets and a team of young guys that don't know what to do? We have a pretty good team if you just coach them properly. We underrate our current team IMO and dismantling even a few pieces could set us back several years. I want to win now or next year. Not saying we're getting the Cup, but I remember doing pretty damn well with Habs lineups having less talent.

It's been one game. I need to mainline some Habs victories to satisfy the void that last season created and I believe it can happen, but we do need PK and soon!

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Old
01-22-2013, 01:19 AM
  #877
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Originally Posted by habtastic View Post
Honest question about your (and others') opinion on how that would play out.

Let's say we get a full cupboard by sucking this year. How long before we make the playoffs and with a good team that can contend? I really don't want to become a team full of good prospects who are in the minors while our NHL team becomes the embarrassment of the league. I can't let go of the pride to allow us to continue like this and while I get that long term planning is important, what you said is very true - we only need a retool and quite frankly, just a slightly better D (once PK is back). People want to trade Pleks and Gio. I don't get it. They put up points and do their jobs. Trade them for the future then, right? When is this future going to arrive? 5 years? How is this team going to transition from having vets to no good vets and a team of young guys that don't know what to do? We have a pretty good team if you just coach them properly. We underrate our current team IMO and dismantling even a few pieces could set us back several years. I want to win now or next year. Not saying we're getting the Cup, but I remember doing pretty damn well with Habs lineups having less talent.

It's been one game. I need to mainline some Habs victories to satisfy the void that last season created and I believe it can happen, but we do need PK and soon!
I will reply to your post in the rebuilding/tanking thread.

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01-22-2013, 03:12 AM
  #878
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A bridge contract isn't ideal, especially not for a year. It's actually the worse outcome. In a year he'll get arbitration. You think with another good year, he'll get 4-4.5M off arbitration?? He would cost us even more.

If the rumors of today are true, PK would accept that 4M cap hit over 6years. Not signing him to this deal would be retarded. And I really mean mentally challenge.

Who cares about the NTC, so many players have them. Never prevented teams from trading those guys.
I agree that if PK signed a one-year deal for whatever the Habs wanted, he would probably get big bucks in arbitration, but again, arbitration provides short-term (one or two year) contracts. But I could easily see Subban put up 40 points this year and play 26 minutes a game and then get $5.5M in arbitration.

If PK is truly willing to give up some $$$ to get a 6 year deal now, which includes 2 of his UFA years, I would have to consider it, if I am MB. That is a VERY tradeable contract. And even if an NTC were included, MB could probably negotiate some of the terms. i.e. make it partial NTC, and more importantly, it would only apply to the last 2 years of the contract because you cannot benefit from a NTC before the point in time that you would have been a UFA.

So if the offer is really 6 years at $4M, take it because it locks up the last piece of your young core for the lowest price of the three (Price and Pacioretty being the other two). If there is a window of opportunity to go for the cup, it will probably be within this 6 year period, anyway. Not much, if anything, will be saved by doing arbitration every year or two. Chances are that would be MORE expensive.

Of course, this is all predicated on the rumours from Hot Stove and now today being true.

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Old
01-22-2013, 06:30 AM
  #879
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Sometimes statistics don't tell the whole story. In his rookie year, PK had some time with Markov, and a season with experienced and skilled guys like Hamrlik, Spacek, Wiz, Gill, Gorges...

Subtract Markov and Hamrlik and Wiz to start, and the later deletions of Spacek and Gill. Subban was thrust into a 1a role and played great hockey for 22 plus minutes a game. Also note the number of man games lost to injury. Let's not forget about the distracting and embarrassing management decisions and the coaching debacle.

And some people call his season a regression? If they actually watched games instead of scoring synopses, I can't imagine anyone not recognizing what a truly remarkable season he had, especially considering the environment in which he had it.
Defensively he had a much better season.

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01-22-2013, 07:10 AM
  #880
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You trade Subban if you're offered a package that warrants trading Subban, for example if the Flyers offer Brayden and Luke Schenn, or Sean Couturier and a 1st.

You don't trade Subban because he wants to be paid more than Michael Del Zotto.
A key thing here though is just what the basis for Bergevin wanting to pay him like Del Zotto is. Is it purely on the basis of an organizational blueprint for bridge deals after ELCs? Or is it actually because he thinks Subban is basically about as good as Del Zotto? (Reality of course likely some combination).

But my fear on a trade is that, given Bergevin is clearly nowhere near my estimation of PK's value on a contract, he would also be nowhere near my estimation of PK's value in a trade.

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01-22-2013, 08:24 AM
  #881
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Any news on Subban? Haven't heard anything pertaining to his signing in a couple of days now.

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Old
01-22-2013, 08:56 AM
  #882
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Any news on Subban? Haven't heard anything pertaining to his signing in a couple of days now.
Dave Stubbs ‏@Dave_Stubbs
Nothing to report this morning on #Habs @PKSubban1 talks

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Old
01-22-2013, 08:57 AM
  #883
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
These guys weren't around when the Theodore fiasco happened, and it was a long time ago before the cap era. It's not at all the same situation either. PK is a special player, I don't understand how anybody would have doubts about PK not being legit. What's the risk here exactly?? That's he'll suddenly end up sucking?? Why??..
He's been nothing short of impressive ever since his OHL sophomore year, and every year it seems his progression speeds up. He's not perfect, still has ways to go, but we have a very good Dman here and he'll be great for years to come.
So, again, what's the risk here?

Not sure what the point of a bridge contract is for a guy like Subban? Prove what exactly during that time? that he can be top 15D in the NHL?? Is that the bar we're setting? Ridiculous. Might as well give him a long deal now at a cheaper price.

As for PM's comments, it's not the first time he'd say some dumb crap. This bad image of PK spread be media and fans is ridiculous and based on absolutely nothing. And I would trade any idiot that wouldn't cheer on a teammate because he finds a kid annoying. If some of his teammates wouldn't stand up for PK because they want him to learn a lesson (for what exactly??) then these guys need to GTFO because they're the ones actually being bad teammates.

This is just ridiculous. Sign the kid. We won't get any better return for him and he will just keep improving.
No offense, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you have never played a sport on a competitive team. And if you did, then you missed the meaning of "team".
A true teammate is with his "brothers" at camp and follows the same path that they followed to get where they are. EVEN if this player is a "special" player as PK is. Every member of a team has to earn the respect of his fellow teammates.

This is how a team works. You go to battle together and each guy has the other guy's back. Unless one of the guys feels he's better of different. Word and opinion travels fast in the small confines of a locker room.

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Old
01-22-2013, 09:08 AM
  #884
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Dave Stubbs ‏@Dave_Stubbs
Nothing to report this morning on #Habs @PKSubban1 talks
Stubbs planned to do a big piece on Subban this week, right? Somebody knows when it will be published?

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Old
01-22-2013, 09:11 AM
  #885
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No offense, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you have never played a sport on a competitive team. And if you did, then you missed the meaning of "team".
A true teammate is with his "brothers" at camp and follows the same path that they followed to get where they are. EVEN if this player is a "special" player as PK is. Every member of a team has to earn the respect of his fellow teammates.

This is how a team works. You go to battle together and each guy has the other guy's back. Unless one of the guys feels he's better of different. Word and opinion travels fast in the small confines of a locker room.
Actually I have played on sports teams, competitively, for about 10years, in different sports.
Not only that, but I am a fitness coach to some young athletes, and we work on a lot of team workouts to improve internal competition but build more unity as well.
So, you went on a limb, but failed. Hard.

You simply have your own belief, that the business side of hockey somehow works its way down to the locker room. I disagree, mainly because it seems extremely unprofessional from someone to hold a grudge against a teammate for negotiation a contract. Not only would it be unprofessional, but it's also childish and immature.
But as I mentioned before, don't take it from me, take it from Gionta who said people have to be able to separate the game of hockey and the business side of it, if you can't you shouldn't be in the NHL, so no we won't hold it against PK.
Those are not my words, those are Gionta's, the Captain of the Habs. But maybe Gionta doesn't understand the concept of a team either. Thank God you do though..

As for PK not being at camp, he's not allowed to. Not only that, but it would be stupid for him to risk getting injured while negotiating a fair contract.
Also, how exactly do you know that PK isn't sending some messages to his buddies on the team?

You are making a lot of assumptions based on absolutely nothing. You realize that you have no idea what is going on behind those closed doors. PK has every right to hold out if management is trying to make him sign a deal worth half of Prust's.

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Old
01-22-2013, 09:17 AM
  #886
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Why? One thing I've noticed is almost always if a team has a deficiency somewhere and decent talent elsewhere, the deficiency gets filled surprisingly quick. It's more about a bit of patience and getting the right players.

I expect we'll get a good young defenseman in the trade but he probably won't be ready to play big minutes. What's wrong with running the contracts out on the players we do have?

We would be creating a giant gap, so what's the point of hurting our team via trade? Know what I mean? Unless Montreal can make an insane deal where we win, trading him is counter productive.

Subban is the type of player you trade for, not the type of player you trade away.

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Old
01-22-2013, 09:28 AM
  #887
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No offense, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you have never played a sport on a competitive team. And if you did, then you missed the meaning of "team".
A true teammate is with his "brothers" at camp and follows the same path that they followed to get where they are. EVEN if this player is a "special" player as PK is. Every member of a team has to earn the respect of his fellow teammates.

This is how a team works. You go to battle together and each guy has the other guy's back. Unless one of the guys feels he's better of different. Word and opinion travels fast in the small confines of a locker room.
I think it was Iginla who was in a contract dispute back in the late 90's. He paid his own insurance to go and train with his team mates.

Talk about a team first guy! PK could learn a couple of things from Iggy.

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Old
01-22-2013, 09:43 AM
  #888
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Dave Stubbs ‏@Dave_Stubbs
Nothing to report this morning on #Habs @PKSubban1 talks
Lol ok, pretty straightforward...

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Old
01-22-2013, 09:45 AM
  #889
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If you think what gets posted in GDTs is proof of anything other than that people who post in GDTs are prone to hysterics, I think you have another thing coming.

In any event, its always the guy carrying the puck that gets the blame. But the guy who has the puck tends to be the best player. The best players always have huge giveaway totals.
Yes the guy who carries the puck gets the blame. And the one not covering their man. Either way you have zero proof either so im over this

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Old
01-22-2013, 09:45 AM
  #890
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Stubbs planned to do a big piece on Subban this week, right? Somebody knows when it will be published?
@Dave_Stubbs: I'm distilling 9 months of my conversations w/ @PKSubban1 & background on how we got to where we are for a feature coming Thursday #Habs

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01-22-2013, 09:52 AM
  #891
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@Dave_Stubbs: I'm distilling 9 months of my conversations w/ @PKSubban1 & background on how we got to where we are for a feature coming Thursday #Habs

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01-22-2013, 09:58 AM
  #892
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Honest question about your (and others') opinion on how that would play out.

Let's say we get a full cupboard by sucking this year. How long before we make the playoffs and with a good team that can contend? I really don't want to become a team full of good prospects who are in the minors while our NHL team becomes the embarrassment of the league. I can't let go of the pride to allow us to continue like this and while I get that long term planning is important, what you said is very true - we only need a retool and quite frankly, just a slightly better D (once PK is back). People want to trade Pleks and Gio. I don't get it. They put up points and do their jobs. Trade them for the future then, right? When is this future going to arrive? 5 years? How is this team going to transition from having vets to no good vets and a team of young guys that don't know what to do? We have a pretty good team if you just coach them properly. We underrate our current team IMO and dismantling even a few pieces could set us back several years. I want to win now or next year. Not saying we're getting the Cup, but I remember doing pretty damn well with Habs lineups having less talent.

It's been one game. I need to mainline some Habs victories to satisfy the void that last season created and I believe it can happen, but we do need PK and soon!
I wouldn't put myself in the category of trade vets for anything. This team is close to being a playoff contender. One more top pick, Agally developing, eller, patches, subban, tinordi developing... this franchise is on the right track. I'm a firm believer that trading our core vets like cole, pleks, gio, gorges markov is a stupid move! All successful teams have proven vets. It's the dead weight that needs to go.

Kaberle, bouillon, bourque (if he doesn't improve although I think he will). Emelin needs to get out of the top 4 (I don't think he'll be anything more than a 6th-7th D able to make bonecrushing hits. The defense needs to get bigger without sacrificing Defensive play (Emelin is terrible defensively).

This upcoming draft, the habs have 4 picks in the top 60! We don't need more prospects after that! We'll be fine... we just need to replace the dead weight with younger players in our system while keeping our core vets.

The only time I'd be okay with trading a core vet would be for another core piece ready to play now... which isn't likely.

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Old
01-22-2013, 10:21 AM
  #893
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Actually I have played on sports teams, competitively, for about 10years, in different sports.
Not only that, but I am a fitness coach to some young athletes, and we work on a lot of team workouts to improve internal competition but build more unity as well.
So, you went on a limb, but failed. Hard.

You simply have your own belief, that the business side of hockey somehow works its way down to the locker room. I disagree, mainly because it seems extremely unprofessional from someone to hold a grudge against a teammate for negotiation a contract. Not only would it be unprofessional, but it's also childish and immature.
But as I mentioned before, don't take it from me, take it from Gionta who said people have to be able to separate the game of hockey and the business side of it, if you can't you shouldn't be in the NHL, so no we won't hold it against PK.
Those are not my words, those are Gionta's, the Captain of the Habs. But maybe Gionta doesn't understand the concept of a team either. Thank God you do though..

As for PK not being at camp, he's not allowed to. Not only that, but it would be stupid for him to risk getting injured while negotiating a fair contract.
Also, how exactly do you know that PK isn't sending some messages to his buddies on the team?

You are making a lot of assumptions based on absolutely nothing. You realize that you have no idea what is going on behind those closed doors. PK has every right to hold out if management is trying to make him sign a deal worth half of Prust's.
Wow, I'm surprised that with all of your experience on teams that the concept of a team and what it means to be a teammate seem to have been lost on you.

As for Gionta, he's the captain and so when he speaks to the media he HAS to say the right thing. Doesn't mean that this is what he believes. Personally I don't know what he believes or what the other members of the team believe. The only thing I have to go on is my understanding of what a team is and what it means to be a good teammate.

And PK made a decision to NOT sign a deal, whatever that deal may be. There were negotiations and for whatever reason, PK and his agent made a decision to try get more money. That decision was his right to make. I understand that. But that decision comes with consequences unfortunately, which he HAD to know were a possibility. None of his fellow teammates went that route, they all played ball because it was good for the team. And Max even left money on the table. Yes, PK is a special player blah blah, better than Price, Max, Gorges at that age. I get it. But in not going that route (again, his decision to make and he has every right to do so) I am of the opinion that it could potentially cause problems.

Again, we don't know what the offer was so I can't pretend to think I know what PK should or should not do. I'm just going by the facts which are that PK is not with his team because of a decision he and his agent made.

I hope you're right in that the players can separate the business side of it and that I'm way off base. I'm pretty sure they do, but you can't ignore the team aspect of this situation. That is my fear and it's based on the concept of what a team is and how a team works and what it means to be a good teammate.

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Old
01-22-2013, 10:55 AM
  #894
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reading on twitter that Bobby Mac is saying that the discussions are nowhere...and that Bergevin is offering Subban 250K more than Prust.

I hope this isn't true.

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01-22-2013, 10:56 AM
  #895
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reading on twitter that Bobby Mac is saying that the discussions are nowhere...and that Bergevin is offering Subban 250K more than Prust.

I hope this isn't true.
It can't be.

No matter how much Subban likes the Habs, a 2.75M offer would be ridiculous.

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01-22-2013, 11:00 AM
  #896
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Bob Mckenzie is on the nhl network saying that the habs are offering Subban 2.75 million

Dustin Leed ‏@D_LEED
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More Bob McKenzie: says Subban wants longer contract, much more than the $2.75m average that's been offered by the Canadiens.
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If you want to know more about the RFA issues, quick put on NHLNetwork to hear @TSNBobMcKenzie
Between this and Eller, this team is looking like a joke.

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01-22-2013, 11:02 AM
  #897
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Bob Mckenzie is on the nhl network saying that the habs are offering Subban 2.75 million

Dustin Leed ‏@D_LEED


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Between this and Eller, this team is looking like a joke.
Umm what the **** Bergevin?

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01-22-2013, 11:03 AM
  #898
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reading on twitter that Bobby Mac is saying that the discussions are nowhere...and that Bergevin is offering Subban 250K more than Prust.

I hope this isn't true.
Bobby Mac usually has the insider info. If this is true, we are ****** and MB is worst than PG/BG. If I was PK, I would ask for a trade if I am getting only 250K more than Prust.

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01-22-2013, 11:06 AM
  #899
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I guess that's the deal some people want Subban to sign huh?

This is deeply concerning to me, if MB is evaluating Subban at that price...there's a problem.

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Old
01-22-2013, 11:06 AM
  #900
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Two things:

1) If McKenzie says it, it's probably true, or close to the truth

2) If it's true, god help this franchise

I'm pretty stoked that we're 1 game into the season and we're already alienating both Subban and Eller. Who needs a future anyway? We can always just do the whole Gomez/Cammalleri/Gionta/Gill/Spacek thing again. It got us to the conference finals, don't forget!

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