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01-22-2013, 11:18 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
Everyone is happy about his defensive coverage....That aside, this guy was drafted for offense. If he doesnīt start producing then he needs to mature more. I think he isnīt ready.
He has the same amount of points as Ennis does

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01-22-2013, 11:20 AM
  #77
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The fact that this kid doesn't look out of place at 18 with no training camp and no pre-season games is astounding. He's got little to benefit from more time in the Q and if he's here they have full-time access to him. They can get him on whatever conditioning program they want, they can give him a veteran mentor and roommate.

Keeping him isn't hurting them, and he's likely already the 3rd best center in the organization anyway.
Agree with all of this. Think the offense will come with time. He's created a few decent chances. And it will probably improve once leino comes back. Ott and hecht aren't bad, but leino's game has more offensive potential to it. Yesterday grigs had a shift with kaleta and ellis...he can't single handedly produce on offense. Plus, let's say the sabres send him back to the Q, then our lines are:
VHP
FES
Ott-Hecht-Kaleta
Ellis-Porter?-Scott

That's a way less dynamic third line and a pretty bad 4th line. And if hecht gets injured...
Also I'm hoping ruff gives him some time on the 2nd PP unit, FES hasn't done anything. I think his speed and playmaking ability would really help

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01-22-2013, 11:21 AM
  #78
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I think he will get sent down. The problem is he has zero offensive upside right now as he sacrifices that to play sound defensive hockey. He is playing sound defense because he doesnīt go into the offensive zone. He has to play all three areas of the game and create chances. If that doesnīt change in the next three games he will go down.

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01-22-2013, 11:22 AM
  #79
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My only real issue with Grigs is that I caught him coasting into corners and standing still waiting for the play to come to him quite a few times last night. Obviously it's only his second game at this level and all that, but eliminating the flat-footed play and getting aggressive will go a long way towards keeping him in the Sabres' top nine. Luke Adam has the same issue, way too passive when the NHL game is aggressive.

Again, I know it's only his second game and we're 2-0, so it's a very minor issue. Just something I noticed.

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01-22-2013, 11:25 AM
  #80
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He's been alright so far. I'd like to see him with Leino a bit so that he can have a linemate that can possess the puck for long periods in the offensive zone and get a cycle game going. Until that time, I'd like to see him get an occasional shift on the PP--his PP goal notwithstanding, I'd prefer Grigs to Ott on the right halfwall of PP1--or every now and then on the LW of Ennis-Stafford.

Ultimately, though, I think he stays. We're not a deep forward corps with him, and sending him back makes us even less deep.

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01-22-2013, 11:26 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Bucky Gleason View Post
Is there a better option than Girgorenko should they send him down? I don't think so.
That's the thing. He hasn't looked out of place, he's pretty good for a youngin', has played pretty solid defense so far, and there aren't really a whole lot of better options.

Other than to not waste a year of his ELC on a 48-game season (which, unfortunately, I can't really argue with since it's somewhat sound economic logic), there's no reason to send him down at this point. Kid's got what we need, so what the hell.

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01-22-2013, 11:29 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by HarryNealesGarden View Post
Other than to not waste a year of his ELC on a 48-game season (which, unfortunately, I can't really argue with since it's somewhat sound economic logic), there's no reason to send him down at this point.
This would be a Golisano/Quinn era argument, but it's extremely doubtful Pegula/Black will worry very much about burning a year of his ELC eligibility. If he's helping the team and giving us a better shot at success by being up, he'll stay. (which is what you said, agreeing with you)

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01-22-2013, 11:36 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
He's been alright so far. I'd like to see him with Leino a bit so that he can have a linemate that can possess the puck for long periods in the offensive zone and get a cycle game going. Until that time, I'd like to see him get an occasional shift on the PP--his PP goal notwithstanding, I'd prefer Grigs to Ott on the right halfwall of PP1--or every now and then on the LW of Ennis-Stafford.

Ultimately, though, I think he stays. We're not a deep forward corps with him, and sending him back makes us even less deep.
I'd prefer him to go with Ennis/Staff. The 1st unit has consistently looked dangerous, and Ott's been doing a good job of winning draws for them to get puck control. The 2nd unit hasn't done squat, all i've seen from them is a ton of botched entries and fast clears

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01-22-2013, 11:37 AM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
I think he will get sent down. The problem is he has zero offensive upside right now as he sacrifices that to play sound defensive hockey. He is playing sound defense because he doesnīt go into the offensive zone. He has to play all three areas of the game and create chances. If that doesnīt change in the next three games he will go down.
Actually, he has tons of offensive upside. The biggest things holding him back are:

1. the lack of a full pre-season to get comfortable.
2. being cautious, which is expected out of a rookie, whether 18 or 21. I am sure his is being told to be defensively responsible.
3. The lack of a puck possession guy like Leino to help keep the op[position hemmed in the offensive zone, create mismatches and allow him to use his vision more.

I think he is playing soundly, but not spectacularly, makes one or two nice reads offiensively each game and defensively is just fine.

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01-22-2013, 11:43 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Reddawg View Post
This would be a Golisano/Quinn era argument, but it's extremely doubtful Pegula/Black will worry very much about burning a year of his ELC eligibility. If he's helping the team and giving us a better shot at success by being up, he'll stay. (which is what you said, agreeing with you)
Burning a year of his ELC isn't just about cold hard cash (the Golisano/Quinn concern), it's also about sound and responsible cap management. In order to build an elite team in this NHL, especially with the cap coming down considerably, you need young guys on super-cheap contracts. It's just good business sense.

Basically if they think there's a very low chance they win anything this season with or without Grigs, and that playing in the Q won't be overly negative for Grigs' development / playing in the NHL won't be overly positive, you could argue the smart thing to do is to send him back down no matter what and buy an extra season of him at a crazy-cheap cost.

I wouldn't fault them for taking the stance that they're going to send him down unless his actual excellent play (think Myers as a rookie) forces their hand and gives them no choice. I'd rather have Grigs on an ELC in a season where we have a better shot at the Cup than this one. And I hate myself for saying that.

All that said I think he'll stay just because he looks like he belongs, we don't have better options, and they'll be worried sending him down will stunt his growth. That means someone else's gotta get waived or traded though.

HPV
FES
Leino-Grigs-Ott
Kaleta-Hecht-Gerbe
McCormick
Ellis
Scott

Regehr-Myers
Sekera-Leo
Sulzer-Ehrhoff
Weber
Brennan

Miller
Enroth


Two of those guys have to go, whether by demotion (Grigs), waivers (Ellis, Scott) or trade.

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01-22-2013, 12:03 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by HarryNealesGarden View Post
Two of those guys have to go, whether by demotion (Grigs), waivers (Ellis, Scott) or trade.
True, but no one really knows when Gerbe will be back and when he does come back it's basically assumed it will be at the expense of a 4th liner (either Ellis or Scott, I would imagine). Leino's return will push Hecht back to the 4th line, which will push Ellis out. My assumption is that Gerbe's return would push Scott out of the lineup on finesse nights, and Gerbe will sit on physical nights (Bruins games, etc). None of this is accounting for further injuries, obviously, and we all know they're going to happen.

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01-22-2013, 01:06 PM
  #87
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After listening to Lindy this morning on WGR, it sounds to me like if Griggy keeps doing what he's doing he'll be on the team after 5.

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01-22-2013, 01:08 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Reddawg View Post
True, but no one really knows when Gerbe will be back and when he does come back it's basically assumed it will be at the expense of a 4th liner (either Ellis or Scott, I would imagine). Leino's return will push Hecht back to the 4th line, which will push Ellis out. My assumption is that Gerbe's return would push Scott out of the lineup on finesse nights, and Gerbe will sit on physical nights (Bruins games, etc). None of this is accounting for further injuries, obviously, and we all know they're going to happen.
Those guys can't just sit, though, they have to either be cut or traded since we're sitting with 25 on the roster including LTIR. Make's it more complicated.

If you send Grigs back that might be all you need if we can play the LTIR rules to keep one person on it if all times. If we keep Grigs at least one person has to be traded or cut (probably Ellis to Roch?) and then you need that second spot too.


Last edited by HarryNealesGarden: 01-22-2013 at 01:15 PM.
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01-22-2013, 01:16 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryNealesGarden View Post
Burning a year of his ELC isn't just about cold hard cash (the Golisano/Quinn concern), it's also about sound and responsible cap management. In order to build an elite team in this NHL, especially with the cap coming down considerably, you need young guys on super-cheap contracts. It's just good business sense.

Basically if they think there's a very low chance they win anything this season with or without Grigs, and that playing in the Q won't be overly negative for Grigs' development / playing in the NHL won't be overly positive, you could argue the smart thing to do is to send him back down no matter what and buy an extra season of him at a crazy-cheap cost.

I wouldn't fault them for taking the stance that they're going to send him down unless his actual excellent play (think Myers as a rookie) forces their hand and gives them no choice. I'd rather have Grigs on an ELC in a season where we have a better shot at the Cup than this one. And I hate myself for saying that.

All that said I think he'll stay just because he looks like he belongs, we don't have better options, and they'll be worried sending him down will stunt his growth. That means someone else's gotta get waived or traded though.

HPV
FES
Leino-Grigs-Ott
Kaleta-Hecht-Gerbe
McCormick
Ellis
Scott

Regehr-Myers
Sekera-Leo
Sulzer-Ehrhoff
Weber
Brennan

Miller
Enroth


Two of those guys have to go, whether by demotion (Grigs), waivers (Ellis, Scott) or trade.
I think the most likely move is waiving Ellis, and finding a trade partner for Brennan for futures.

- Gerbe becomes the spare forward (Ennis and Jochen Insurance)

- McCormick the spare tough guy (if this team is serious, it has to recognize that Kaleta WILL miss time, and you can't dress Scott every night. McCormick still has a role IMO)

- Weber is the 7th

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01-22-2013, 01:21 PM
  #90
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I think Ellis will be waived but not be assigned to Rochester, The reality is we will get hit with injuries and no one will be waived.

Grigorenko is more than capable playing at this level, people need to remember that he isn't going to put up many points as a rookie, look at other 18 year olds who came into similar situations.

Seguin 22pts in 72 games
Thornton 7pts in 55 games
Couturier 27pts in 77 games
Burmistrov 20pts in 74 games
Johansen 21pts in 67 games



Can he play physically in the NHL?

Is he good enough defensively to play in the NHL ?

does he have the talent to play in the NHL ?

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01-22-2013, 01:25 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Darcy Regier View Post
I think Ellis will be waived but not be assigned to Rochester, The reality is we will get hit with injuries and no one will be waived.

Grigorenko is more than capable playing at this level, people need to remember that he isn't going to put up many points as a rookie, look at other 18 year olds who came into similar situations.

Seguin 22pts in 72 games
Thornton 7pts in 55 games
Couturier 27pts in 77 games
Burmistrov 20pts in 74 games
Johansen 21pts in 67 games



Can he play physically in the NHL?

Is he good enough defensively to play in the NHL ?

does he have the talent to play in the NHL ?
I think Skinner was 18 as a rookie too, but he was kind of an exception with his 63 points.

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01-22-2013, 01:28 PM
  #92
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My thoughts on Grigs are simple :
He doesn't look like an "out of place" 18 year old.
So he stays

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01-22-2013, 01:29 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by LGB24 View Post
He has the same amount of points as Ennis does
Ennis had an assist on the Myers goal.

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01-22-2013, 01:32 PM
  #94
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For selfish reasons I want him to stay, but from a development standpoint, he belongs in Junior.

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01-22-2013, 01:35 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I think the most likely move is waiving Ellis, and finding a trade partner for Brennan for futures.

- Gerbe becomes the spare forward (Ennis and Jochen Insurance)

- McCormick the spare tough guy (if this team is serious, it has to recognize that Kaleta WILL miss time, and you can't dress Scott every night. McCormick still has a role IMO)

- Weber is the 7th
Agree with all of this except the bolded. Gerbe may not start as a regular, but will see more time than Scott throughout the year.

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01-22-2013, 01:35 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
My thoughts on Grigs are simple :
He doesn't look like an "out of place" 18 year old.
So he stays
Exactly...

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01-22-2013, 01:36 PM
  #97
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For selfish reasons I want him to stay, but from a development standpoint, he belongs in Junior.
I dont understand this, why will he develop more playing junior?

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01-22-2013, 01:38 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by RockFlagAndEagle View Post
I think Skinner was 18 as a rookie too, but he was kind of an exception with his 63 points.
I wanted to only include centers, Seguin probably should not have been included since he didnt play a lot of center.

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01-22-2013, 01:38 PM
  #99
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Actually, he has tons of offensive upside. The biggest things holding him back are:

1. the lack of a full pre-season to get comfortable.
2. being cautious, which is expected out of a rookie, whether 18 or 21. I am sure his is being told to be defensively responsible.
3. The lack of a puck possession guy like Leino to help keep the op[position hemmed in the offensive zone, create mismatches and allow him to use his vision more.

I think he is playing soundly, but not spectacularly, makes one or two nice reads offiensively each game and defensively is just fine.
If you want to argue my point then come with facts....
how many shots on net did he have?
How many scoring chances last game?
I think he has 1 scoring chance, 2 shots on net, 0 hits in two games....sounds offensive to me.
I will wait two more games but if those stats donīt change.....

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01-22-2013, 01:50 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
If you want to argue my point then come with facts....
how many shots on net did he have?
How many scoring chances last game?
I think he has 1 scoring chance, 2 shots on net, 0 hits in two games....sounds offensive to me.
I will wait two more games but if those stats donīt change.....
not surprising that your assessment comes from that perspective.

I care almost nothing about the stats you listed. What I am looking for in 5 games is :
- Ability to recognize his lane/man on the back check
- Ability to rotate his coverages properly when hemmed in
- Puck awareness in the offensive zone
- Neutral zone transition skating
- Physical ability to compete along the boards

So far 3 specific plays have stood out

1. He won a physical battle in front of the net agaisnt Lupul preventing a goal. It highlighted both def zone awareness and physical strength
2. He made an excellent decision on the back check vs Toronto, dropping his man, as he went wide and picking up the guy crashing the net.
3. He set up Ott with an "eyes in the back of his head" pass, that should've been a goal vs Philly.

- He hasn't looked lost (awareness in all 3 zones is more than adequate, and even surprisingly good at times)
- He physically has no problem at this level (strength, size, conditioning)

I don't give a **** about points or hits.... I care about NHL quality shifts. If he is READY to play here physically and mentally, that's all that matters

at this point, sending him down would only be detrimental in my opinion

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