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Rayan O'Rayli , From Russia with love

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Old
01-22-2013, 11:17 AM
  #326
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Originally Posted by Appleanche View Post
The main and most important difference is that Sakic signed an offer sheet with an NHL team.

Rayan signed his with a KHL team, so if he stays there stubbornly we don't get ****.. at least if Sakic left we would have got picks. I can't personally blame him for accepting it, worse case is would have been playing with the Rangers and Gretzky.. It was also a certain thing, we either match and keep him or we don't. Sure, Sakic might have squeezed the Avs pre-cap out of a few million, but at least he didn't hold out for it.

Rayan is playing in Russia in one of the most polluted cities on earth, in a league that's now lost a lot of it's skill and star power, and if he decides to stay there we're basically **** out of luck. It's becoming more and more evident that he apparently cares more about his ego and money than the team or even his career, because the longer he stays in Russia for a little bit of money the more he's going to lose RFA years and building years here in the NHL.
In my opinion, facts are facts.

Both were RFA's, and like Sakic used the NYR offersheet to get a better deal, Ryan appears to be doing the same.

I see no difference because in TODAY'S world, you HAVE to take into acct Overseas Markets. And ROR found a team who believes that he's worth a (reported) 4m a year.

I'm thinking Sakic's may have been worse for the franchise, just because the way NYR designed it, it was meant to never be matched by the Avs. In doing so the Avs were taking a BIG chance that it wasn't going to cripple them (thank you "Air Force One" for being a box office hit)

The question we SHOULD be asking ourselves, is why are the Avalanche Management NOTORIOUS for this crap? They finally get a hockey player that is EVERYTHING someone should want out of a player and they pull this crap?

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01-22-2013, 11:21 AM
  #327
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Originally Posted by RockLobster View Post
In my opinion, facts are facts.

Both were RFA's, and like Sakic used the NYR offersheet to get a better deal, Ryan appears to be doing the same.

I see no difference because in TODAY'S world, you HAVE to take into acct Overseas Markets. And ROR found a team who believes that he's worth a (reported) 4m a year.

I'm thinking Sakic's may have been worse for the franchise, just because the way NYR designed it, it was meant to never be matched by the Avs. In doing so the Avs were taking a BIG chance that it wasn't going to cripple them (thank you "Air Force One" for being a box office hit)

The question we SHOULD be asking ourselves, is why are the Avalanche Management NOTORIOUS for this crap? They finally get a hockey player that is EVERYTHING someone should want out of a player and they pull this crap?
Good question. It's been a LONG time since we had a 3rd line Center that could effectively shutdown the other teams' top players, win faceoffs, log big minutes, score when given the opportunity, and fill in on the top 2 lines.

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01-22-2013, 11:24 AM
  #328
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In my opinion, facts are facts.

Both were RFA's, and like Sakic used the NYR offersheet to get a better deal, Ryan appears to be doing the same.

I see no difference because in TODAY'S world, you HAVE to take into acct Overseas Markets. And ROR found a team who believes that he's worth a (reported) 4m a year.

I'm thinking Sakic's may have been worse for the franchise, just because the way NYR designed it, it was meant to never be matched by the Avs. In doing so the Avs were taking a BIG chance that it wasn't going to cripple them (thank you "Air Force One" for being a box office hit)

The question we SHOULD be asking ourselves, is why are the Avalanche Management NOTORIOUS for this crap? They finally get a hockey player that is EVERYTHING someone should want out of a player and they pull this crap?
The KHL will always be able to pay more for a player. If that's what he's interested in, he should never try to sign with an NHL team again. If he's interested in playing in the NHL, he should try to sign a deal with his NHL team without using the KHL as leverage.

It was simply dumb advice from his agent to think they could strong arm a team like the Avalanche with the KHL deal he signed.

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01-22-2013, 11:26 AM
  #329
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Originally Posted by RockLobster View Post
In my opinion, facts are facts.

Both were RFA's, and like Sakic used the NYR offersheet to get a better deal, Ryan appears to be doing the same.

I see no difference because in TODAY'S world, you HAVE to take into acct Overseas Markets. And ROR found a team who believes that he's worth a (reported) 4m a year.

I'm thinking Sakic's may have been worse for the franchise, just because the way NYR designed it, it was meant to never be matched by the Avs. In doing so the Avs were taking a BIG chance that it wasn't going to cripple them (thank you "Air Force One" for being a box office hit)

The question we SHOULD be asking ourselves, is why are the Avalanche Management NOTORIOUS for this crap? They finally get a hockey player that is EVERYTHING someone should want out of a player and they pull this crap?
I have no idea what you mean by Avs being notorious for this. I think for the most part Avs seem to have a good relationship with players, both currently and historically.

I don't know what "crap" you think Avs have pulled here, apart from not signing O'Reilly to a $5M/year deal. It's business. They don't think he's worth that much money at this point. I've yet to see a good comparison from around the league that makes me think that is the wrong position. If Avs were to pay him that, it would make him by far the highest paid player of any similar type of players.

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01-22-2013, 11:29 AM
  #330
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I have no idea what you mean by Avs being notorious for this. I think for the most part Avs seem to have a good relationship with players, both currently and historically.

I don't know what "crap" you think Avs have pulled here, apart from not signing O'Reilly to a $5M/year deal. It's business. They don't think he's worth that much money at this point. I've yet to see a good comparison from around the league that makes me think that is the wrong position. If Avs were to pay him that, it would make him by far the highest paid player of any similar type of players.
We have a murky relationship imo. Think back to Lappy, Bruno, Hendricks, Andy, Quincey, etc. While Andy and Quincey were for good reason, the way we treated guys like Lappy and Bruno was pathetic. Hendricks was just being stubborn for the sake of being stubborn, the guy was everything short of the McClement of 4th line centers for us and we wouldn't offer him a 1-way deal.

As for O'Reilly, I agree. Meehan's agency once again is like the plague.

E: and apparently that link to the search I put in earlier didn't work for the TML fan... so perhaps a Mod should link to the old threads when they make these topics?? http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1323833 <-- search Gardiner or whatever.

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01-22-2013, 11:31 AM
  #331
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Originally Posted by RockLobster View Post
In my opinion, facts are facts.

Both were RFA's, and like Sakic used the NYR offersheet to get a better deal, Ryan appears to be doing the same.

I see no difference because in TODAY'S world, you HAVE to take into acct Overseas Markets. And ROR found a team who believes that he's worth a (reported) 4m a year.

I'm thinking Sakic's may have been worse for the franchise, just because the way NYR designed it, it was meant to never be matched by the Avs. In doing so the Avs were taking a BIG chance that it wasn't going to cripple them (thank you "Air Force One" for being a box office hit)

The question we SHOULD be asking ourselves, is why are the Avalanche Management NOTORIOUS for this crap? They finally get a hockey player that is EVERYTHING someone should want out of a player and they pull this crap?
IMO Sakic's foray into those waters are more forgivable simply because he was a near generational talent and the franchise player. You are more willing to make amends with a player that you simply can't do without. I want ROR on this team long term, but I don't want the Avs to overpay and be stuck with a bad deal if ROR regresses.

As good of player as ROR is, he can be replaced (Sakic really couldn't be). There are a number of very good #2Cs in this league that are real similar to ROR. His type of player may not be the easiest to find, but it is much easier than finding an elite #1C.


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01-22-2013, 11:38 AM
  #332
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
We have a murky relationship imo. Think back to Lappy, Bruno, Hendricks, Andy, Quincey, etc. While Andy and Quincey were for good reason, the way we treated guys like Lappy and Bruno was pathetic. Hendricks was just being stubborn for the sake of being stubborn, the guy was everything short of the McClement of 4th line centers for us and we wouldn't offer him a 1-way deal.

As for O'Reilly, I agree. Meehan's agency once again is like the plague.

E: and apparently that link to the search I put in earlier didn't work for the TML fan... so perhaps a Mod should link to the old threads when they make these topics?? http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1323833 <-- search Gardiner or whatever.
Every team has tonnes of players that leave. That's the nature of the business. Avs fans have an obsession for interpreting it in an ominous way.

Sometimes the player is a poor fit for one reason or another. Sometimes it doesn't make sense to pay him what it would take. Sometimes the player wants to leave. Sometimes the organization makes a mistake letting a player go.

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01-22-2013, 11:44 AM
  #333
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Every team has tonnes of players that leave. That's the nature of the business. Avs fans have an obsession for interpreting it in an ominous way.

Sometimes the player is a poor fit for one reason or another. Sometimes it doesn't make sense to pay him what it would take. Sometimes the player wants to leave. Sometimes the organization makes a mistake letting a player go.
Right, but it was reported by numerous people at the time that we let Brunette go without even telling him why and that we didn't handle Lappy's situation right, forget what we did.

Just stating, we're not exactly the best bunch of negotiators in the league when it comes to our own players.

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01-22-2013, 11:46 AM
  #334
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IMO Sakic's foray into those waters are more forgivable simply because he was a near generational talent and the franchise player. You are more willing to make amends with a player that you simply can't do without. I want ROR on this team long term, but I don't want the Avs to overpay and be stuck with a bad deal if ROR regresses.

As good of player as ROR is, he can be replaced (Sakic really couldn't be). There are a number of very good #2Cs in this league that are real similar to ROR. His type of player may not be the easiest to find, but it is much more possible than finding an elite #1C.
I'm not trying to make a comparison of the type of player that Sakic was with the type of player O'Reilly is.

I'm simply comparing their situations in regards to being RFA's at the time that Sakic signed his offersheet and O'Reilly signed his deal w/ the KHL.

Sakic was going to get them terms of that offer sheet EITHER way, either from NYR or the Avs.

O'Reilly is going to get his money EITHER way, whether from the KHL or from the Avs (or another team if they deal him) w/ a deal that offers him more than the reported offers over the summer.

And yes, I do take a bit of umbridge w/ the Avalanche when it comes to this. As someone stated, think back to players like Lappy, Bruno, etc. Those guys I feel could have been re-signed, but the Avalanche do have a penchant for being tough-as-nails negotiators. And while I applaud them for wanting to maintain a sense of fiscal responsibility, there comes a time though when that mindset can set the franchise back.

I feel that if they let ROR get away this will be one of those times. As I stated, he's a player that if you were to ask EVERY coach, they would want ALL of their players to be as dedicated and hard-working as he is...it's infectious, it rubs off on his team.

I think it's painfully naive to think that ROR's breakout year was just because of him being lined up w/ Landeskog. Landeskog was no doubt a reason for it, but not the ONLY reason. ROR is a hard worker, and he OUTPERFORMED the expectations he had placed upon him, I think, in every year.

He played w/ other players who didn't compliment his style of play, up until he got to his 3rd year in the league. Landeskog was, as I stated above, a good player on his line, their styles seem to mesh well. Winnik, for all his faults on the offensive side of the puck, worked well for a little while, but then when Winnik was essentially upgraded to Downie, someone who has a bit of untapped offensive potential as well, that's when the line really came together.

I'm getting tired of people believing that it was JUST Landeskog that led O'Reilly to his breakout year. I think a fair assessment would be that they BOTH helped each other have good years, because they're both complimentary players off of each other.

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01-22-2013, 11:51 AM
  #335
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I'm getting tired of people believing that it was JUST Landeskog that led O'Reilly to his breakout year. I think a fair assessment would be that they BOTH helped each other have good years, because they're both complimentary players off of each other.
I don't think that many people believe that ROR is a bad player. If they do, their opinion is worthless. ROR has shown that he is a solid #2C, and has room to grow to an elite #2. There are some questions to his overall offensive ability. Does he plateau around 50pts or does he have 70 pt upside? Can he mesh with other wingers besides Landeskog and still be effective? Is he really worth $5m long term (biggest question IMO)?

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01-22-2013, 11:54 AM
  #336
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I don't think that many people believe that ROR is a bad player. If they do, their opinion is worthless. ROR has shown that he is a solid #2C, and has room to grow to an elite #2. There are some questions to his overall offensive ability. Does he plateau around 50pts or does he have 70 pt upside? Can he mesh with other wingers besides Landeskog and still be effective? Is he really worth $5m long term (biggest question IMO)?
Some good questions there (for real, not being faceitious)

1) No, I don't believe that he plateau's at 50pts
2) Yes he can mesh well with other wingers, as long as they're not wingers who ONLY have 3rd/4th line upside
3) Absolutely in my opinion.

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01-22-2013, 11:55 AM
  #337
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Right, but it was reported by numerous people at the time that we let Brunette go without even telling him why and that we didn't handle Lappy's situation right, forget what we did.

Just stating, we're not exactly the best bunch of negotiators in the league when it comes to our own players.
Compare that to Hejduk always taking hometown discounts, Forsberg always wanting to come back, all the young players we have on the team willing to sign good contract and so on.

Having a few examples from the past define Avs as a notoriously bad organization seems to have more to do with fan over reaction than reality.

You can't bring back everyone every year. It's not how it works. Deciding not to keep a player or even trade a player is not a slap in the face.

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01-22-2013, 11:56 AM
  #338
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Right, but it was reported by numerous people at the time that we let Brunette go without even telling him why and that we didn't handle Lappy's situation right, forget what we did.

Just stating, we're not exactly the best bunch of negotiators in the league when it comes to our own players.
The Avs have never been a team that does anything resembling coddling players. Everyone is imminently replaceable in their eyes, and if they don't come at the price they want to give, they can walk. The only players they've rolled out the red carpet for are guys like Sakic, Forsberg, Blake, and Roy. They pretty much always paid those guys without much of a fight.

But even when they decided they would have to let Forsberg go, they sent him a lowball offer and turned their back on him when he turned it down. O'Reilly and his agent are expecting the team to cater to their needs the way they have for other superstar players, and it doesn't appear they put him in that category.

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01-22-2013, 12:04 PM
  #339
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Some good questions there (for real, not being faceitious)

1) No, I don't believe that he plateau's at 50pts
2) Yes he can mesh well with other wingers, as long as they're not wingers who ONLY have 3rd/4th line upside
3) Absolutely in my opinion.
I don't necessarily disagree, but unfortunately Avs management has to determine how much they value ROR. I'd personally prefer a 2 year 4m deal to just get him here and find a way to sign him long term to something agreeable.

If ROR just turned out to be a Frans Nielson type of player (who is on a steal of a deal BTW), I would regret him being on a $5m deal. A $4m, while slightly overpaid, I don't think I would mind.

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01-22-2013, 12:07 PM
  #340
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Compare that to Hejduk always taking hometown discounts, Forsberg always wanting to come back, all the young players we have on the team willing to sign good contract and so on.

Having a few examples from the past define Avs as a notoriously bad organization seems to have more to do with fan over reaction than reality.

You can't bring back everyone every year. It's not how it works. Deciding not to keep a player or even trade a player is not a slap in the face.
People often forget that Forsberg once vowed never to play in an Avalanche uniform again, though to be fair that was because of their handling of Adam Deadmarsh and them trading him (if I recall didn't Deader re-sign w/ us before being traded?)

However, the case being, that there his historical precedence to show how the Avalanche treat certain players.

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01-22-2013, 12:11 PM
  #341
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The Avs have never been a team that does anything resembling coddling players. Everyone is imminently replaceable in their eyes, and if they don't come at the price they want to give, they can walk. The only players they've rolled out the red carpet for are guys like Sakic, Forsberg, Blake, and Roy. They pretty much always paid those guys without much of a fight.

But even when they decided they would have to let Forsberg go, they sent him a lowball offer and turned their back on him when he turned it down. O'Reilly and his agent are expecting the team to cater to their needs the way they have for other superstar players, and it doesn't appear they put him in that category.
I don't know about that...I think Duchene has been coddled to a certain degree...if coddled isn't the right word, one could say "sheltered" to a degree.

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01-22-2013, 12:18 PM
  #342
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I don't know about that...I think Duchene has been coddled to a certain degree...if coddled isn't the right word, one could say "sheltered" to a degree.
You mean when he was forced to play wing and repeatedly sent to the press box last season?

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01-22-2013, 12:21 PM
  #343
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I don't know about that...I think Duchene has been coddled to a certain degree...if coddled isn't the right word, one could say "sheltered" to a degree.
I meant in contract negotiations. I don't think we can say they've given him carte blanche in that area, the way they did with established superstars like Sakic, Forsberg, Blake, and Roy.

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01-22-2013, 12:22 PM
  #344
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You mean when he was forced to play wing and repeatedly sent to the press box last season?
People forget Duchene's first year. Hejduk had had an established chemistry/rapport w/ Stastny as his Center.

Coming into that year Hejduk was still regarded as a Top Line winger.

Duchene was handed Hejduk on his line.

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01-22-2013, 12:23 PM
  #345
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I meant in contract negotiations. I don't think we can say they've given him carte blanche in that area, the way they did with established superstars like Sakic, Forsberg, Blake, and Roy.
I misunderstood what you mean, fair enough. I apologize.

But I don't get the feeling that ROR is wanting "carte blanche" in the negotiations.

Look, at the end of the day, as fans, WE don't know the exact argument that ROR's agent used to make his argument on ROR's merits, nor do we know what exactly happened on the Avalanche side of things to cause it to go south.

What we know is that APPARENTLY things WERE said or done that caused a stalemate in negotiations. And ROR, imo, is not the type of player that the Management should be doing this to.

I think, given EVERYTHING he brings to the table, that he's easily worth 5m a year.


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01-22-2013, 12:24 PM
  #346
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I misunderstood what you mean, fair enough. I apologize
No worries.

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01-22-2013, 12:29 PM
  #347
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People forget Duchene's first year. Hejduk had had an established chemistry/rapport w/ Stastny as his Center.

Coming into that year Hejduk was still regarded as a Top Line winger.

Duchene was handed Hejduk on his line.
Hejduk was more like a 2nd line winger. And he has been for the most part of his career.

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01-22-2013, 12:34 PM
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Hejduk was more like a 2nd line winger. And he has been for the most part of his career.
Um, no. He's been a legit top line forward for "the most part" of his career.

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01-22-2013, 12:37 PM
  #349
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Um, no. He's been a legit top line forward for "the most part" of his career.
This... from about 99 to 2011 he was a first line winger. He was elite from 99 to 07. I think people's expectations of 1st line and 2nd line players are just way to high around HF.

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01-22-2013, 12:44 PM
  #350
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He still has great hands and shot. The wheels are gone, though, and he's never been overly physical.

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