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Most Dominant athlete: Wayne Gretzky vs Wilt Chamberlain

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01-20-2013, 07:52 PM
  #51
TheDevilMadeMe
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I was referring mainly to offensive dominance. I think all-round game is where there is a case for Jordan over Gretzky (at least that's what I got from skimming the really long Jordan vs. Gretzky thread).

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01-20-2013, 07:53 PM
  #52
mco543
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Why is "dominance" reduced to being offense only?

edit: This isn't directed at anyone specifically, just a general question.

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01-20-2013, 07:55 PM
  #53
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by mco543 View Post
Why is "dominance" reduced to being offense only?
That's pretty much what the OP is about, right? Not to mention the use of Gretzky and Chamberlain as the examples.

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01-20-2013, 08:00 PM
  #54
Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
You do realize those guys only played with Gretzky for part of his career, right? And that when they were all playing together, he badly outscored them?



And Gretzky outscored every teammate on those stacked rosters and outscored every opponent on the stacked Soviet roster every single time.

There are lots of people who would take Russell over Chamberlain because of playoffs or clutch play or whatever. Nobody would ever take another player over Gretzky because of playoff performances (those who pick others over Gretzky do so because of all-round game or looking better).
This^

I guess the only time Wayne didn't dominate was in 98 when he had 4 assists in 6 games. What a poor effort from a 37 year old guy right?

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01-20-2013, 08:42 PM
  #55
Long Duk Dong
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
This^

I guess the only time Wayne didn't dominate was in 98 when he had 4 assists in 6 games. What a poor effort from a 37 year old guy right?
4 assists in 6 games isn't dominant. Jagr and Selanne got 2 goals, 2 assists yesterday. How old are they?

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01-20-2013, 09:18 PM
  #56
jigglysquishy
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Originally Posted by xX Hot Fuss View Post
Haha Gretzky averaged 1.84 ppg in the playoffs playing with Messier, Coffey, Kurri, and Anderson. Really? He did? What a shocker...

Woah, and then Gretzky played really well in Canada Cup tournaments? Playing with stacked rosters...
Look at the 1981-82 NHL season.

Wayne Gretzky got 92 goals, 120 assists for 212 points. He set the record for goals, assists and points all in the same year.

Next best in the NHL got 147 points.

Next best on his team got 105 points.

Gretzky more than DOUBLED the next best guy on his team.


Did he play with great players? Yes.

Did he regularly embarrass those great players? He sure did

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01-20-2013, 09:52 PM
  #57
tazzy19
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Originally Posted by jigglysquishy View Post
Look at the 1981-82 NHL season.

Wayne Gretzky got 92 goals, 120 assists for 212 points. He set the record for goals, assists and points all in the same year.

Next best in the NHL got 147 points.

Next best on his team got 105 points.

Gretzky more than DOUBLED the next best guy on his team.


Did he play with great players? Yes.

Did he regularly embarrass those great players? He sure did
His 92 goals would have been enough to win his team's points scoring title if not for Glen Anderson. And take away his record 92 goals? He still wins his team's scoring title even with Anderson. Ridiculous domination. Simply unfathomable.

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01-20-2013, 10:01 PM
  #58
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If Gretzky had retired when he was 28, these would have been (some of) his accomplishments:

* 9 Hart Trophies in 10 years (say what?)

* 8 scoring titles (and tied for another his first season) in 10 years

* 10 assist titles in 10 years

* 5 goal scoring titles in 10 years.

* 4 Stanley Cups (and 5 Cup finals) in 10 years

* 51 NHL records in 10 years (averaged over 5 records per year!)

* 5 playoff scoring titles in 10 years (including 2 MVPs)

* 3 Canada Cup Scoring Titles in all 3 Canada Cups (including an MVP)

* 1900 points in 10 years (averaged 190 points per year for 10 years!)

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01-20-2013, 10:10 PM
  #59
Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by Long Duk Dong View Post
4 assists in 6 games isn't dominant. Jagr and Selanne got 2 goals, 2 assists yesterday. How old are they?
You missed the sarcasm on my part there.

His 4 assists in 6 games was in a best on best tournament, not a 1 off game.

That's by far his worst performance, the guy literally had video game like numbers and didn't slide in the playoffs or best on best tournaments very much at all.

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01-20-2013, 10:25 PM
  #60
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A lot of people consider Russell to be better than Wilt from his own era. Then add in Kareem, Bird, Magic, and MJ....

Gretzky was easily the best player during his career, Mario was the only one that was close, but going by what each accomplished (and not the "what ifs" of Mario's career) it's not really debatable. Gretzky is consensus top 2 on this website up there with Orr, and Gretz usually wins those head 2 head polls by a hair too.


Wilt was known as sort of a "stat-padding" player. He had a reputation for being too selfish. Also his playoff resume isn't that impressive compared to other basketball greats (or Gretzky).

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01-20-2013, 11:49 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Wrath View Post
A lot of people consider Russell to be better than Wilt from his own era. Then add in Kareem, Bird, Magic, and MJ....

Gretzky was easily the best player during his career, Mario was the only one that was close, but going by what each accomplished (and not the "what ifs" of Mario's career) it's not really debatable. Gretzky is consensus top 2 on this website up there with Orr, and Gretz usually wins those head 2 head polls by a hair too.


Wilt was known as sort of a "stat-padding" player. He had a reputation for being too selfish. Also his playoff resume isn't that impressive compared to other basketball greats (or Gretzky).
The only teams to win championships were Chamberlain's and Russell's for 13 years. Kareem called him GOAT, and he was better than Magic in his 40s, granted that's based on a pickup game that Magic hosted and upset Wilt into trying. I'd honestly like to see if MJ and Wilt switched teams if MJ could beat Russell's Celtics at all, best dynasty in team sports realistically.

IMO, the only advantages Russell had over Wilt were his leadership, and maybe a little better shot blocker/defender. A couple of seasons Russell won MVP, he was second ALL NBA for Centers to Wilt.

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01-21-2013, 02:35 AM
  #62
MeowLeafs
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Chamberlain. 100 pts in a game is ridiculous.
That 100 point game is overrated for a variety of reasons.

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01-21-2013, 11:12 AM
  #63
tony d
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Gretzky definitely.

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01-21-2013, 11:45 AM
  #64
xX Hot Fuss
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Originally Posted by MeowLeafs View Post
That 100 point game is overrated for a variety of reasons.
No more than Gretzky's records and stats. I realize this is a losing argument on a hockey forum but Wilt Chamberlin was the most dominate athlete of the 5 major sports of all time IMO.

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01-21-2013, 12:06 PM
  #65
tazzy19
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Originally Posted by xX Hot Fuss View Post
No more than Gretzky's records and stats. I realize this is a losing argument on a hockey forum but Wilt Chamberlin was the most dominate athlete of the 5 major sports of all time IMO.
It's not a losing argument (or a winning argument) if there is no argument presented. It's not just Gretzky's stats that are impressive. It's the 9 MVPs in 10 years. It's the consistency of separating himself over his peers time and time and time and time and time......again.

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01-21-2013, 12:13 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Tricia McMillan View Post
If we're going to talk about dominant sportsmen we can't leave out Donald Bradman.

He had a career test batting average of 99.94. In comparison, the second highest career test average is Greame Pollock with 60.97, one of only three batsmen to have a career average over 60.

I also know this comment will probably be overlooked because it's cricket on a hockey board.
You're probably right about the bolded part. But I can at least say that I knew who you were talking about before you described his accomplishments .

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01-21-2013, 12:16 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Long Duk Dong View Post
4 assists in 6 games isn't dominant. Jagr and Selanne got 2 goals, 2 assists yesterday. How old are they?
Indeed you are correct. We can therefore conclude based on this data that Jagr and Selanne had more dominant careers than Gretzky.

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01-21-2013, 12:25 PM
  #68
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the most persuasive argument i've heard on russell vs. wilt is that russell had all the intangibles that makes a winning team win. it's not just leadership and it's not just probably the greatest defensive play in basketball history, which is not significant because russell reportedly often took on not only his own defensive load but also those of at least one other teammate. but it's little things like how russell was one of the greatest, if not the greatest, outlet passers ever, which resulted in a lot of baskets, but not assists (NBA only counts one assist per basket). russell also would block a shot to a teammate upcourt, making a defensive play and starting the fast break simultaneously. whereas most big men, wilt included, would just block the shot and usually chuck it out of bounds in the process. people say this about dwight howard now; sure it looks awesome and is probably demoralizing to the shooter when you block someone's shot out of bounds and then flex your muscles. but you also give the other team its possession right back.

it's those kinds of little things that made russell the "glue" behind basketball's most dominant dynasty, winning 11 championships in 13 years. his play made everyone around him better, which every relevant basketball commentator, coach, and player acknowledges. it's hard to argue that among all non-point guards ever, russell did the most to help his teammates reach a higher level. whereas wilt was widely thought of as a guy who gunned for individual numbers, who rarely made anyone better, and lost most of his one-on-one matchups against mr. bill russell.

and i think of it like this: people say gretzky made messier, kurri, and coffey the all-time great players they were. not to say they weren't hall of famers without him, but is messier a multiple MVP if he hadn't learned what he learned from gretzky? is coffey the second greatest offensive defenseman of all time if he doesn't learn the NHL game through gretzky's genius eyes/brain? no one can prove this one way or another, but that's what people say. similarly, is sam jones one of basketball history's great clutch playoff scorers without russell? is havlicek a top 15 all time player? does cowens develop into an MVP? again, we don't know. but if you asked those guys, they'd say they owed a lot to russell.

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01-21-2013, 12:36 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by tazzy19 View Post
It's not a losing argument (or a winning argument) if there is no argument presented. It's not just Gretzky's stats that are impressive. It's the 9 MVPs in 10 years. It's the consistency of separating himself over his peers time and time and time and time and time......again.
You guys also forget Chamberlain boasted that he hammered 10,000 women in his tenure. Gretzky had one girlfriend for years , then met Janet Jones, and the rest we shall say ........is history.

So Wilt is by far the better ........well, braggart anyways.

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01-21-2013, 01:10 PM
  #70
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01-21-2013, 01:57 PM
  #71
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You guys also forget Chamberlain boasted that he hammered 10,000 women in his tenure. Gretzky had one girlfriend for years , then met Janet Jones, and the rest we shall say ........is history.

So Wilt is by far the better ........well, braggart anyways.
Actually I think the number is 20,000 and without children too.

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01-22-2013, 12:59 PM
  #72
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Gretzky was statistically dominant, but Mario Lemieux was pretty much as good or even better. Did Wilt Chamberlain had a similar "Lemieux" in NBA challenging him?

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01-22-2013, 01:30 PM
  #73
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Actually I think the number is 20,000 and without children too.
**official children.

If he slept with that much women, it's not far-fetched to believe at least one of them got knocked up and kept the baby.

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01-22-2013, 01:33 PM
  #74
TheDevilMadeMe
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Gretzky was statistically dominant, but Mario Lemieux was pretty much as good or even better. Did Wilt Chamberlain had a similar "Lemieux" in NBA challenging him?
Bill Russell. Where have you been all thread?

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01-22-2013, 02:02 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by VerySuperFamous View Post
The only teams to win championships were Chamberlain's and Russell's for 13 years. Kareem called him GOAT, and he was better than Magic in his 40s, granted that's based on a pickup game that Magic hosted and upset Wilt into trying. I'd honestly like to see if MJ and Wilt switched teams if MJ could beat Russell's Celtics at all, best dynasty in team sports realistically.

IMO, the only advantages Russell had over Wilt were his leadership, and maybe a little better shot blocker/defender. A couple of seasons Russell won MVP, he was second ALL NBA for Centers to Wilt.
Whoa.

That's an enormous understatement. Russell is the best defender in NBA history.

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